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  #6641  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 1:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax View Post
Couldn't we give the arts people the Dennis and let them fix it up so we could demolish the Khyber and build something practical on Barrington.
The Khyber cannot ever be used for anything practical. It is too small, too cut-up, and substantial alteration seems impossible. Better to just give it to some group that wants to take it on and let them sink or swim. The city needs to get out from under.
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  #6642  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 2:30 PM
enjoy*responsibly enjoy*responsibly is offline
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I find the comments on this issue absolutely amazing. On one hand, just about everyone on this board talks about how we need to develop our city into a place that provides an amazing quality of life and work, with great design, work and shopping opportunities and public transit that gets people where they need to go, easily and quickly. Yet, let someone mention arts funding, or library funding or funding for anything that can't tangibly be measured and all hell breaks loose.
The Central Library, Neptune, Khyber Centre, Scotiabank Centre and others provide some of the ways in which the quality of life in Halifax has grown, creating opportunities for people to learn and grow and interact with others to make this a better city.
Everyone has an opinion, but to those who only have one tune, and that one is a negative whine, perhaps you would do better living somewhere else, while those of us who believe in making a better city through constructive and creative solutions get on with the job.
Hey now, it was actually a question which didn't get addressed by your answer.

Just asking if all these other cities that Halifax was being compared to might be in a better position to fund arts and things like the Khyber than Halifax at this current time.

Not saying low ROI means bad investment by the city, but as far as priorities and fiscal reality goes right now, maybe that answer changes.

I don't know the answer, thats why the question was asked.

Last edited by enjoy*responsibly; Mar 25, 2015 at 4:09 PM.
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  #6643  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 2:55 PM
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But the Eiffel tower is the city's icon.

Nonsense. It is all part of the city character.
Those must not be tourists in the huge lineups at the Empire State Building, Rockefeller Center, etc. Or maybe they are just confused. Next time I go there I'll let them know that there's a crowd in Halifax that does not approve of their tourism choices.

I'd better tell the mayor too. Imagine how successful Central Park would be if they knocked down all those ugly highrises and replaced them with four storey brick boxes or wooden houses. I'm sure New York could one day establish a successful tourism industry too if they followed the advice of the Halifax experts. If they also kicked out all the evil big businesses then they'd be in a perfect position to replicate Nova Scotia's economic successes in general. Even Tim Bousquet would approve.

They should probably tear down the Statue of Liberty too and replace it with something built on a more human scale. I'm not sure why Bartholdi didn't consult Jennifer Watts when he designed the thing; an oversight on his part.
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  #6644  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 2:58 PM
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Tourists in New York go to Central Park, Carnegie Hall,the Met,the theatres - they don't go to look at tall office towers.
They absolutely do. The Empire State, Chrysler Building etc are iconic symbols of NYC that people love to see. Ever seen the lineups to take the elevator to the viewing deck at the Empire State Building? Gotten a reservation for dinner at Top of The Rock? One of my favourite things to do in NYC is to look at the amazing stone detail work on NYC's amazing collection of Art Deco office towers (of which I think they have the best collection in the world, even when compared to Chicago etc).

Again your use on "absolutes" is the issue, and the world is much less black and white than you make it to be. Yes, one of the things people go to NYC for is to see Central Park and go to the theatres, but they ALSO go to see the iconic skyscrapers that define its skyline. Overly absolute statements (e.g. "they don't go") are rarely true and usually amount to pounding on the table when you can't pound on the facts.
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  #6645  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 3:15 PM
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Those must not be tourists in the huge lineups at the Empire State Building, Rockefeller Center, etc. Or maybe they are just confused. Next time I go there I'll let them know that there's a crowd in Halifax that does not approve of their tourism choices.

I'd better tell the mayor too. Imagine how successful Central Park would be if they knocked down all those ugly highrises and replaced them with four storey brick boxes or wooden houses. I'm sure New York could one day establish a successful tourism industry too if they followed the advice of the Halifax experts. If they also kicked out all the evil big businesses then they'd be in a perfect position to replicate Nova Scotia's economic successes in general. Even Tim Bousquet would approve.

They should probably tear down the Statue of Liberty too and replace it with something built on a more human scale. I'm not sure why Bartholdi didn't consult Jennifer Watts when he designed the thing; an oversight on his part.
Well! Nice to see you're coming around to the right point of view. Excellent post!
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  #6646  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 3:50 PM
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Is Halifax in a position to provide these levels of funding to this arts community, who in my opinion is fringe & not strong in the ROI department, compared to these most other cities?
Actually, yes. Per capita, we're among Canada's least indebted municipalities, and our infrastructure deficit is (while considerable) less than many other places. (See Montreal's collapsing overpasses, or Toronto's imminent affordable-housing apocalypse and staggering billion-dollar repair backlog.)

Halifax's finances are comparable-to-better than most other cities in the country.
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  #6647  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 3:57 PM
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Actually, yes. Per capita, we're among Canada's least indebted municipalities, and our infrastructure deficit is (while considerable) less than many other places. (See Montreal's collapsing overpasses, or Toronto's imminent affordable-housing apocalypse and staggering billion-dollar repair backlog.)

Halifax's finances are comparable-to-better than most other cities in the country.
Just because we're not the most drunk of the drunken sailors doesn't mean that we're not still spending like drunken sailors on all sorts of non-core squeaky wheel special interest things that are totally frivolous.
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  #6648  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 4:19 PM
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Those must not be tourists in the huge lineups at the Empire State Building, Rockefeller Center, etc. Or maybe they are just confused. Next time I go there I'll let them know that there's a crowd in Halifax that does not approve of their tourism choices.

I'd better tell the mayor too. Imagine how successful Central Park would be if they knocked down all those ugly highrises and replaced them with four storey brick boxes or wooden houses. I'm sure New York could one day establish a successful tourism industry too if they followed the advice of the Halifax experts. If they also kicked out all the evil big businesses then they'd be in a perfect position to replicate Nova Scotia's economic successes in general. Even Tim Bousquet would approve.

They should probably tear down the Statue of Liberty too and replace it with something built on a more human scale. I'm not sure why Bartholdi didn't consult Jennifer Watts when he designed the thing; an oversight on his part.
Someone has been using sarcasm on a few posts lately and doing very well with it.
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  #6649  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 4:42 PM
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The Khyber cannot ever be used for anything practical. It is too small, too cut-up, and substantial alteration seems impossible. Better to just give it to some group that wants to take it on and let them sink or swim. The city needs to get out from under.
Keith, That's also what you said about the Dennis, 8 foot ceilings that turned out to be at least ten feet.
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  #6650  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 5:06 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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It is funny because the debate is often framed as highrises (and the destruction of views) vs. heritage preservation, but there are lots of historic highrises around the world and a few in Halifax. The Dominion Public Building and Dingle are two good local examples.

I've never heard anybody complain about the presence of the Dingle or claim that it ruins sight lines. On the contrary, I think it's an attractive part of the view of the Northwest Arm and people can climb the tower and look off the observation deck.

Really the problem isn't with highrise buildings or new development, it's demolition and unattractive development. People don't like Scotia Square or the Maritime Centre as much. But no developers are proposing to construct copies of 1960's and 70's buildings. Most anti-highrise sentiment is based on straw men.

Bad traffic is another one that gets unfairly pinned on urban highrises. Halifax's roads are largely clogged by cars driven by suburbanites who live in low density neighbourhoods. Urban development improves congestion compared to the alternative. People need places to live and work. If they live and work in the urban core they will drive less. It's pretty simple.
This pretty much sums up how I feel about it. While many equate pro-heritage with anti-height, it doesn't have to be that way. Locally, perhaps, this idea comes from the misguided adventures of the HT, arguing so strongly about view planes while true heritage buildings are being knocked down, largely because of weak heritage-designation laws and general apathy among those who make the rules (which is one of the issues that the HT should be focusing their efforts on, but that's another topic).

The Dominion Building is a great example of a structure which satisfies both, thus proving that heritage and height should not be considered mutually exclusive entities.

In fact, one of the reasons I first came to this forum was a result of researching some of NYC's amazing skyscrapers built back in the early 1900s through the art deco age. The Greenvale school repurposing was another drawing point for me, and an excellent example of how a heritage property can take on a new life and add value to its neighborhood.

As (someone123) mentioned previously, I believe part of the reason that there is some resistance to newer tall buildings has been that we haven't had many good examples of quality buildings that were built in the sixties through nineties. I for one became somewhat apathetic seeing cheaply-built, unattractive buildings as the main example of newer construction in the area. Now, I see that the quality of our newest construction has increased dramatically and I couldn't be more pleased.

So, speaking for myself, I like heritage structures and I like newer well-built high-quality structures. Mostly, I like the balance of both 'living' together, working in perfect symbiosis and resulting in a vibrant, interesting city - a place where people want to live and visit.

Which is why some of the extremist views sometimes presented here seem so lame and tiresome - to the point that I sometimes ask myself why I even bother to read this forum (however I always conclude that there are way more well-thought-out and informative posts than the negative ones, so I of course always return). I don't think that Halifax is so poor that we can't fund a few "gee-whiz" projects on the taxpayers' dime. IMHO, projects such as these create a certain civic pride - like the new library: perhaps exorbitant to some, it shows that we value our city and our citizens enough to give them an amazing public building to enjoy. It shows visitors that we are a place of substance and that we care about our city. It shows our pride.

While some deride the Khyber and other arts-based funding, I don't think they realize the intrinsic value that arts add to all of our lives. We all benefit from the arts either directly or indirectly, a concept that I don't believe really requires explanation yet one that some don't seem to grasp. The truth is, very few Canadian artists ever become rich practicing their art within our borders (this is one reason why so many of Canada's artists work and reside in the US). It sometimes seems that we Canadians want to enjoy the work of artists but don't think we should have to pay for it (curiously). This creates a situation where many artists have trouble devoting all their energies to their chosen field of work, as they still have to make a living over and above in order to survive. Therefore, to me it seems reasonable that we should collectively support projects such as the Khyber that will actually pay us back in ways that wouldn't happen otherwise.
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  #6651  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 6:18 PM
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Just because we're not the most drunk of the drunken sailors doesn't mean that we're not still spending like drunken sailors on all sorts of non-core squeaky wheel special interest things that are totally frivolous.
As long as there's a pothole left to fill somewhere, everything else is just gravy, eh?
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  #6652  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 6:46 PM
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While some deride the Khyber and other arts-based funding, I don't think they realize the intrinsic value that arts add to all of our lives. We all benefit from the arts either directly or indirectly, a concept that I don't believe really requires explanation yet one that some don't seem to grasp. The truth is, very few Canadian artists ever become rich practicing their art within our borders (this is one reason why so many of Canada's artists work and reside in the US). It sometimes seems that we Canadians want to enjoy the work of artists but don't think we should have to pay for it (curiously). This creates a situation where many artists have trouble devoting all their energies to their chosen field of work, as they still have to make a living over and above in order to survive. Therefore, to me it seems reasonable that we should collectively support projects such as the Khyber that will actually pay us back in ways that wouldn't happen otherwise.
The argument is similar to those involving saving old buildings in this city. Some of us say just because something is old doesn't mean it is worth saving. Sometimes old buildings are just and only that. They were unremarkable when new and remain so. It's not like we have a bunch of Penn Stations here. When the heritage extremists say something like the WWII-vintage "dry canteen" on the Garrison Grounds is a heritage building, that's the kind of craziness that causes everyone to go bonkers. The Khyber is a similar case - not just the building, but the KAS. They are an "arts" organization by a broad definition of that term, but do they make a difference to the fabric of the city? I would argue no. They are way out on the fringe, accountable to nobody for what they produce, and dependent upon govt grants to keep themselves in weed and fair-trade coffee. At least an organization like Neptune produces stuff that is professional and appeals to a reasonably broad base. KAS, Center for Art Tapes, etc etc are all just NSCAD types trying to figure out what to do next. One in a very large number may actually hit on something that carries on. The rest go to work as baristas or house painters. Should the govt support these aspirations with property tax dollars that we pay with the expectation that our sidewalks will be clear, our roads fixed, and our houses protected by police and fire services? It is not the role for a city govt. NS has various provincial arts organizations that provide funding. The feds have many more. That is where these things should find their funding, not from the property tax base. It is not a business HRM should be in.
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  #6653  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 7:03 PM
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Please don't put a venue like Scotiabank Centre in the same lump as the Khyber. One event there probably entertains more people than the Khyber does in a year or more. And the issue isn't that we fund some of these venues, it is HOW we fund them. Excessive spending on a library doesn't mean you should have no libraries. It just means you shouldn't have ones that are cost-no-object. The Khyber is beginning to sound like the same thing, just on a 1/8 scale. We do not need to go there. The property tax ratepayer is now being asked to shoulder the additional burden of a "stormwater" charge on the tax bill, something that has always just been a city service included in the general rate. Well guess what: the general rate continues, but this is added on top of it, for something that has been in the ground for 50 years or more. It is simply a blatant cash grab. At some point the abuse of the taxpayer in this town must stop. Perhaps we should itemize the "arts" line item as well on tax bills and see how that goes over.
Nonsense! Just because someone appears to have a personal vendetta against a particular place or venue doesn't mean that the value to the general population diminishes. Personally, there are many things in the city that I don't necessarily need or use, but they create a value proposition for the city that encourages others to live and work here and help make it a better city all round. Accept it, change it or leave it. Those are the options we have in life. Maybe it's time to think about leaving the city to those who sincerely want to make it a better place.
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  #6654  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 7:20 PM
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Nonsense! Just because someone appears to have a personal vendetta against a particular place or venue doesn't mean that the value to the general population diminishes. Personally, there are many things in the city that I don't necessarily need or use, but they create a value proposition for the city that encourages others to live and work here and help make it a better city all round. Accept it, change it or leave it. Those are the options we have in life. Maybe it's time to think about leaving the city to those who sincerely want to make it a better place.
I have no "personal vendetta". I just know how to manage funds. Giving tax dollars to every outfit that comes along with its hand out doesn't help make the city a better place. It makes it a crummy city that can't fix its roads, can't keep things clean, and can't keep things functional in winter. You need to set priorities. The taxpayer cannot be continually asked to cough up more and more for every cause that gets someone's ear. We already pay some of the highest taxes in the country and people/businesses are leaving because of that.
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  #6655  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 7:37 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
The argument is similar to those involving saving old buildings in this city. Some of us say just because something is old doesn't mean it is worth saving. Sometimes old buildings are just and only that. They were unremarkable when new and remain so. It's not like we have a bunch of Penn Stations here. When the heritage extremists say something like the WWII-vintage "dry canteen" on the Garrison Grounds is a heritage building, that's the kind of craziness that causes everyone to go bonkers. The Khyber is a similar case - not just the building, but the KAS. They are an "arts" organization by a broad definition of that term, but do they make a difference to the fabric of the city? I would argue no. They are way out on the fringe, accountable to nobody for what they produce, and dependent upon govt grants to keep themselves in weed and fair-trade coffee. At least an organization like Neptune produces stuff that is professional and appeals to a reasonably broad base. KAS, Center for Art Tapes, etc etc are all just NSCAD types trying to figure out what to do next. One in a very large number may actually hit on something that carries on. The rest go to work as baristas or house painters. Should the govt support these aspirations with property tax dollars that we pay with the expectation that our sidewalks will be clear, our roads fixed, and our houses protected by police and fire services? It is not the role for a city govt. NS has various provincial arts organizations that provide funding. The feds have many more. That is where these things should find their funding, not from the property tax base. It is not a business HRM should be in.
We will always have to agree to disagree on heritage buildings, no big deal there.

You seem to be rescinding a little on your earlier posts regarding the Neptune, which I find interesting.

We already know you don't like the Khyber building. We know you don't like the KAS. Therefore I would fully expect you to express negativity towards both entities.

Regardless of your feelings towards the arts in general and the KAS specifically, they all have a place and help contribute to a healthy society. Even if you think the work of a particular organization or individual is "fringe" or "out there", remember that the work is significant in that it communicates ideas, spurs creative thinking and ultimately influences other work that often will eventually filter down to a more diluted form that the general populous can appreciate. This type of "fringe" work, although influential and sometimes ground-breaking, is often "ahead of the curve" and thus not profit-generating, despite it's legitimate place in the process. I think that society benefits from this activity and therefore should support it, thus I would have no problem if it becomes a (relatively small) percentage of our tax base.

I agree that there should be federal/provincial funding involved, but they don't own the building. Perhaps the city should offer use of the building plus property tax incentives to one of the other levels of government with a legal agreement that the building is to be restored and maintained for a specified period of time, with the option to renew funding or forfeit the property back to the city once that time period has expired. If the other levels of government offer actual support as you say they do, then this should seem like a great opportunity to them.

Good discussion, by the way.
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  #6656  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 7:57 PM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
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Doze the Khyber and spend the money to widen Bayers Rd
Will benefit a lot more people and is within the mandate for the city to provide roads.
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  #6657  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 8:46 PM
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I agree that there should be federal/provincial funding involved, but they don't own the building. Perhaps the city should offer use of the building plus property tax incentives to one of the other levels of government with a legal agreement that the building is to be restored and maintained for a specified period of time, with the option to renew funding or forfeit the property back to the city once that time period has expired. If the other levels of government offer actual support as you say they do, then this should seem like a great opportunity to them.
Not going to happen. Arts funding is scarce and cannot be wasted on an expensive restoration of an obsolete building that is sentimental to a handful of people. Sometimes govt just has to accept that in these times, it cannot do it all and must stick to priorities. I suspect that is a message that will take time to get through, but one which will be hammered home on the upcoming provincial budget. If KAS is as valuable as you seem to think it is, perhaps they can raise the funds from similarly like-minded supporters. OTOH, if they are as fringe as I think they are, maybe they need to lower their sights and take whatever space they can get.
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  #6658  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 9:14 PM
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Doze the Khyber and spend the money to widen Bayers Rd
Will benefit a lot more people and is within the mandate for the city to provide roads.
The fact that you think the city has a mandate to provide roads, but NOT a mandate to protect historic architecture and provide a fertile environment for creative expression (a role governments have taken on since time immemorial), speaks volumes about your perception of what a city should be like.

But I'm starting to get the feeling I'm just arguing with a contrarian who'se trying to get a rise out of me and other heritage proponents. No one can possibly have such a weirdly narrow view of what a city is supposed to be.
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  #6659  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 10:17 PM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
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The fact that you think the city has a mandate to provide roads, but NOT a mandate to protect historic architecture and provide a fertile environment for creative expression (a role governments have taken on since time immemorial), speaks volumes about your perception of what a city should be like.

But I'm starting to get the feeling I'm just arguing with a contrarian who'se trying to get a rise out of me and other heritage proponents. No one can possibly have such a weirdly narrow view of what a city is supposed to be.
The fact that you think the city has a mandate to provide and maintain historic slums and invest in creative expression as if creative makes it special over other kinds of expression as opposed to providing roads, water, sewer and sidewalks indicates you have a very unusual perception of reality. It must be frustrating since we do not all follow your preconceived programs of YOUR city.
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  #6660  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2015, 10:19 PM
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I just read through all this and I'm reminded of a lunch and learn presentation I went to today by the City of Calgary's new City Manager Jeff Fielding. He talked about how divided our city council is and what it takes to be a world class city.

When we think about world class cities, they have recognized that it's about providing services for what the changing demographics want. Younger folks are looking for cities where cars aren't the priority and have significant cultural aspects. Jeff boiled it down like this (and I thought it was a great metaphor): do you want a 1 star city (like a Macdonald's) or do you want a 3 star city (moxie's or something like that) or do you want a 5 star city?

The world class cities build bike lanes and encourage investments in transit and culture, because that's what the younger demographics who are moving to them want. They don't want to own a car, they want the excitement of downtown cultural areas. So I guess the debate we're having about this is about what kind of city we want.
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