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[JET]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I would take a slightly different direction; but one with a heritage preservation slant. Keith might like this because it helps kill a few birds with one stone. My understanding is that HRM owns the Khyber and the two buildings to the 'left' of the Khyber (1580 and the old heritage facade site). Now if I'm wrong - well, scale the idea down to just the Khyber site.

If HRM does own all 3 sites, put them up for sale as one package. As a condition of the sale, the existing fascade on the burnt out site must be retained. Same with the two other existing buildings but you can build onto them - build a tower, whatever. If retaining the buildings doesn't work - retain at least the facade as part of a new building.

You aren't going to get a tower on the site since it's within the Barrington Heritage Conservation District, I think you will only get a building the size of the new one that went up next to the Khyber. But if the cost could be spread out over the 3 properties (or 2) then you get to at least retain the facade and a new condo/office building could be built.

I do believe that you are wrong. 1580 is psrt of Neptune, and was completely renovated (and looks lovely). I was in it before the reno and it looked about the same as the Khyber does now. The NFB building is now being redeveloped so it will again look great. HRM bought the Khyber for a buck "in 1988 to preserve it as a significant heritage landmark" and then for years did not maintain it; now thy have to pay to do so. The article referenced by Keith has comments from Neptune which is very supportive of the Khyber. There is support for this building. My main question is: when it is all fixed up, will Keith continue to rant about it as he does the Library, or will he move on to something else? Time will tell.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JET

My main question is: when it is all fixed up, will Keith continue to rant about it as he does the Library, or will he move on to something else? Time will tell.

The answer depends on who pays for it. I think the Khyber building is hideous and foreboding, a Gothic haunted house, but not everyone may agree. The look does not matter in this case. What matters is who pays for it and what it gets used for. It should not be paid for by the city if they are just going to let KAS use it as their clubhouse. KAS is not a vital arts organization regardless of what they may claim. They have always been a fringe group, funded by the taxpayer for reasons that escape me. They could go away tomorrow and few would know or care. Now if Neptune want to do something with it, fine - but again, let them and their well-heeled supporters pay for it. The city gives Neptune a substantial annual grant as well and should not give anything further. $4 million or $8 million may not be a lot of money to some, but it is a substantial chunk of change that could do some real good for people who NEED it. This is not that.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

DUH ??

This is a skyscraper forum not a heritage forum. Why don't the heritage nuts set up their own forum and stop all the negative posting on the skyscraper forum?

You slay me. You are writing as though it is not possible to appreciate and understand the significance of both heritage buildings and new "skyscrapers" at the same time.

Ludicrous.

[JET]

Strong words from Mark, 'I like the cut of his jib'.
I will gladly pay for it out out of my taxes. Let me continue to shovel my own sidewalk and use that money too. All of us on the fringe will pay for it, so some fringe group can use it for all that fringey stuff. Just watch, it'll happen. !

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

DUH ??

This is a skyscraper forum not a heritage forum. Why don't the heritage nuts set up their own forum and stop all the negative posting on the skyscraper forum?

It's really more of an overall city forum with a skew towards structures and development.

Regardless, you know that you and Keith are outnumbered on this issue, right?

[JET]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

DUH ??

This is a skyscraper forum not a heritage forum. Why don't the heritage nuts set up their own forum and stop all the negative posting on the skyscraper forum?

Obviously it's not just a 'skyscraper' forum. There are 109 forum pages on the 'new library', and it's only about five stories high (of course probably half of those posts are from Keith). There is lots of forum discussion on small projects; and, interestingly enough, there are a numbers of posters who are heritage positive (maybe even a few that are Heritage fluid). It does seem that the irate/semi profane posts originate from some of the 'anti heritage at any cost' posters. They do need to calm down a little, or they are gonna burn out if they keep it up.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

It's really more of an overall city forum with a skew towards structures and development.

Regardless, you know that you and Keith are outnumbered on this issue, right?

What issue? Tearing down the Khyber?

I don't care if it gets torn down or not as long as HRM doesn't spend mega-millions on rebuilding something for a tiny fringe bunch. It's always about the money. Something of which, as planners, you have no concept.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by JET

Obviously it's not just a 'skyscraper' forum. There are 109 forum pages on the 'new library', and it's only about five stories high (of course probably half of those posts are from Keith). There is lots of forum discussion on small projects; and, interestingly enough, there are a numbers of posters who are heritage positive (maybe even a few that are Heritage fluid). It does seem that the irate/semi profane posts originate from some of the 'anti heritage at any cost' posters. They do need to calm down a little, or they are gonna burn out if they keep it up.

I don't think heritage and skyscrapers need to be at odds with eachother. Those at either end (either entirely "pro-heritage" or "pro-height) are both likely wrong.

But... to the point of others... this is the "SkyscraperPage.com" forum. I can't blame anybody for being irate about the fact that every project is a challenge and that the opposite side (not on this forum necessarily) frequently has no leeway. Small projects are discussed because alot of the big ones get torpedoed. I thought Cogswell would be the last chance for some towers, but even that may be under attack.

I personally like Khyber buidling and the majority of remaining, non-wood frame, heritage in Halifax. That being said, there should be some trade off... if heritage gets money to be restored, then height on an empty lot should not be fought if it is a good design.

Everybody can't have their cake and eat it too, but the anti-height agenda wants just that. For example, I think a tower around the Dennis building would be the best way to save it. Its better than the alternative of losing it.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I don't think heritage and skyscrapers need to be at odds with eachother. Those at either end (either entirely "pro-heritage" or "pro-height) are both likely wrong.

But... to the point of others... this is the "SkyscraperPage.com" forum. I can't blame anybody for being irate about the fact that every project is a challenge and that the opposite side (not on this forum necessarily) frequently has no leeway. Small projects are discussed because alot of the big ones get torpedoed. I thought Cogswell would be the last chance for some towers, but even that may be under attack.

I personally like Khyber buidling and the majority of remaining, non-wood frame, heritage in Halifax. That being said, there should be some trade off... if heritage gets money to be restored, then height on an empty lot should not be fought if it is a good design.

Everybody can't have their cake and eat it too, but the anti-height agenda wants just that. For example, I think a tower around the Dennis building would be the best way to save it. Its better than the alternative of losing it.

FWIW, the term skyscraper came into use in the 1880's and refers to anything over 10 stories or ~220'. The 2 key distinguishing features are a Steel Skeleton, and the elevator - the 2 technological pieces that allowed building that tall possible and practical.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The city gives Neptune a substantial annual grant as well and should not give anything further. $4 million or $8 million may not be a lot of money to some, but it is a substantial chunk of change that could do some real good for people who NEED it. This is not that.

My time on the Neptune board 20 years ago causes me to remember that the 'substantial annual grant' was equivalent to the amount of property taxes to be paid to the City of Halifax. Dartmouth gave the grand sum of $0 and I don't believe Bedford and the County were any more generous.
At my first board meeting a member asked why Neptune received so little funding from the 4 municipalities. I sat and waited for the views of others and then said 'Because they are philistines'. Mike Savage was a board member but rarely attended meetings.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

FWIW, the term skyscraper came into use in the 1880's and refers to anything over 10 stories or ~220'. The 2 key distinguishing features are a Steel Skeleton, and the elevator - the 2 technological pieces that allowed building that tall possible and practical.

It is funny because the debate is often framed as highrises (and the destruction of views) vs. heritage preservation, but there are lots of historic highrises around the world and a few in Halifax. The Dominion Public Building and Dingle are two good local examples.

I've never heard anybody complain about the presence of the Dingle or claim that it ruins sight lines. On the contrary, I think it's an attractive part of the view of the Northwest Arm and people can climb the tower and look off the observation deck.

Really the problem isn't with highrise buildings or new development, it's demolition and unattractive development. People don't like Scotia Square or the Maritime Centre as much. But no developers are proposing to construct copies of 1960's and 70's buildings. Most anti-highrise sentiment is based on straw men.

Bad traffic is another one that gets unfairly pinned on urban highrises. Halifax's roads are largely clogged by cars driven by suburbanites who live in low density neighbourhoods. Urban development improves congestion compared to the alternative. People need places to live and work. If they live and work in the urban core they will drive less. It's pretty simple.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Colin May

My time on the Neptune board 20 years ago causes me to remember that the 'substantial annual grant' was equivalent to the amount of property taxes to be paid to the City of Halifax. Dartmouth gave the grand sum of $0 and I don't believe Bedford and the County were any more generous.
At my first board meeting a member asked why Neptune received so little funding from the 4 municipalities. I sat and waited for the views of others and then said 'Because they are philistines'. Mike Savage was a board member but rarely attended meetings.

Halifax has incredibly poor arts funding--like, conspicuously and dramatically less than most other cities. Which is actually a pro in favour of paying for the Khyber--make up for some lost investment.

[ILoveHalifax]

Couldn't we give the arts people the Dennis and let them fix it up so we could demolish the Khyber and build something practical on Barrington.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

Couldn't we give the arts people the Dennis and let them fix it up so we could demolish the Khyber and build something practical on Barrington.

Barrington is a heritage district. If you don't like it, tough. It's already been decided.

[enjoy*responsibly]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Halifax has incredibly poor arts funding--like, conspicuously and dramatically less than most other cities. Which is actually a pro in favour of paying for the Khyber--make up for some lost investment.

Is Halifax in a position to provide these levels of funding to this arts community, who in my opinion is fringe & not strong in the ROI department, compared to these most other cities?

[visualman57]

Originally Posted by enjoy*responsibly

Is Halifax in a position to provide these levels of funding to this arts community, who in my opinion is fringe & not strong in the ROI department, compared to these most other cities?

I find the comments on this issue absolutely amazing. On one hand, just about everyone on this board talks about how we need to develop our city into a place that provides an amazing quality of life and work, with great design, work and shopping opportunities and public transit that gets people where they need to go, easily and quickly. Yet, let someone mention arts funding, or library funding or funding for anything that can't tangibly be measured and all hell breaks loose.
The Central Library, Neptune, Khyber Centre, Scotiabank Centre and others provide some of the ways in which the quality of life in Halifax has grown, creating opportunities for people to learn and grow and interact with others to make this a better city.
Everyone has an opinion, but to those who only have one tune, and that one is a negative whine, perhaps you would do better living somewhere else, while those of us who believe in making a better city through constructive and creative solutions get on with the job.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by enjoy*responsibly

Is Halifax in a position to provide these levels of funding to this arts community, who in my opinion is fringe & not strong in the ROI department, compared to these most other cities?

Tourists in Paris go to the Louvre, they don't go to look at tall office towers.
Tourists in New York go to Central Park, Carnegie Hall,the Met,the theatres - they don't go to look at tall office towers.
Businesses prefer to locate in cities with a vibrant arts community, good schools and open space.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

My time on the Neptune board 20 years ago causes me to remember that the 'substantial annual grant' was equivalent to the amount of property taxes to be paid to the City of Halifax. Dartmouth gave the grand sum of $0 and I don't believe Bedford and the County were any more generous.

IIRC the ask this year at the HRM arts grant trough was for $100,000. The rationale escapes me. Do we give grants or tax relief to movie theaters? TV and radio stations? Sound stages? Nightclubs? All of these support "the arts" by employing performers. Yet Neptune is somehow deserving of special treatment? Do all little theater companies receive such largesse? If so I must ask why they are so special. The audience seems to enjoy going there and sipping their Chardonnay at intermission. Perhaps a bump in the ticket price would get the taxpayer off the hook.

At my first board meeting a member asked why Neptune received so little funding from the 4 municipalities. I sat and waited for the views of others and then said 'Because they are philistines'. Mike Savage was a board member but rarely attended meetings.

Such is the problem with ceremonial boards. People (i.e. politicians) receive appointments simply to be able to say they are a member and then don't read the material, don't attend meetings, and don't really add anything. So a smaller group of people really run the show without input from those appointed. In a real board, if you don't show up for meetings regularly, you're given the boot.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by visualman57

I find the comments on this issue absolutely amazing. On one hand, just about everyone on this board talks about how we need to develop our city into a place that provides an amazing quality of life and work, with great design, work and shopping opportunities and public transit that gets people where they need to go, easily and quickly. Yet, let someone mention arts funding, or library funding or funding for anything that can't tangibly be measured and all hell breaks loose.
The Central Library, Neptune, Khyber Centre, Scotiabank Centre and others provide some of the ways in which the quality of life in Halifax has grown, creating opportunities for people to learn and grow and interact with others to make this a better city.
Everyone has an opinion, but to those who only have one tune, and that one is a negative whine, perhaps you would do better living somewhere else, while those of us who believe in making a better city through constructive and creative solutions get on with the job.

Please don't put a venue like Scotiabank Centre in the same lump as the Khyber. One event there probably entertains more people than the Khyber does in a year or more. And the issue isn't that we fund some of these venues, it is HOW we fund them. Excessive spending on a library doesn't mean you should have no libraries. It just means you shouldn't have ones that are cost-no-object. The Khyber is beginning to sound like the same thing, just on a 1/8 scale. We do not need to go there. The property tax ratepayer is now being asked to shoulder the additional burden of a "stormwater" charge on the tax bill, something that has always just been a city service included in the general rate. Well guess what: the general rate continues, but this is added on top of it, for something that has been in the ground for 50 years or more. It is simply a blatant cash grab. At some point the abuse of the taxpayer in this town must stop. Perhaps we should itemize the "arts" line item as well on tax bills and see how that goes over.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Tourists in Paris go to the Louvre, they don't go to look at tall office towers.

But the Eiffel tower is the city's icon.

Tourists in New York go to Central Park, Carnegie Hall,the Met,the theatres - they don't go to look at tall office towers.

Nonsense. It is all part of the city character.