Dead Malls of Canada

[vid]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Polo Park is Winnipeg's "downtown". It is where stores which only have one location in Winnipeg locate.
It is the reason downtown Winnipeg is on life support.
Who ever through building a super regional mall 3km from the heart of the city was a good idea, really thought wrong.

Yes, it should have been located 8km from the heart of the city. Man, what were they thinking??

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by vid

Yes, it should have been located 8km from the heart of the city. Man, what were they thinking??

No. It should never have been allowed in the first place. If Winnipeg needed a mall, then instead of Polo Park, a mall should have been built downtown like Portage Place.
But Portage Place was built to stop the decline of downtown to Polo Park, and that did not work.

Small cities like Winnipeg never required more than the downtown retail area.

[vid]

Winnipeg already had multiple downtown areas before Polo Park was built... you realize Winnipeg is the amalgamation of seven cities and towns, right? Central Winnipeg itself has several shopping areas in addition to Downtown itself, and they're all closer than Polo Park.

[ue]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The mall seems to be a dying fad but much of the decline had nothing to do with the mall or how it was managed or even the stores in it but rather issues that were beyond it's control.

Of course the big one for many malls especially downtown ones in mid-sized cities was the collapse of Eaton's. Often it was the main anchor of the mall and with it's demise the mall had no major anchor tenant so the reason to go to the mall itself declines and as the stores began to leave, it built on itself and the malls basically collapsed.

Although this hurt the downtown with so many mini "Eaton Centres" across the downtowns, the downtown did have a far better opportunity to fill that space with government/business offices or civic space. An excellent example is the Galleria in downtown London which went from a gaping hole in the core to now housing UWO/Fanshawe campuses, small offices, and the new downtown Library................dead suburban malls usually don't have that kind of opportunity.

The other thing we must remember is changing demographics. Think about it, when were most of these malls built?...........1970 to 1985. At the time they were in the fast growing suburbs with working parents and tons of kids but now those fast growing outer suburbs have become the slow/no growth older suburbs of today. The kids have left for the new suburbs further out or gone downtown leaving a smaller population. Also very importantly they have left a much more elderly population who's largest income years are behind them as they start collecting their pensions and they retire from the jobs. They not only have lower incomes than they once did but also buy a lot less. Thee older people get the less they are going to be spending on the latest fad, clothing styles, hi-tech gadgets, eating out, and even fewer groceries as they kids are gone.

Outside of things like groceries or drug stores, clothing/TVs, gadgets, shoes made up the bulk of a malls stores catering to a younger generation with high mark-up products. The busy malls of 30 years ago are trying to stay alive with fewer buyers with less money who don't buy the latest fads for themselves or their kids like they use to, all in a higher rent environment which malls charge as opposed to non-enclosed big box centres.

I don't know, malls are pretty successful across the board, provided they're well managed and not in an oversaturated market. Many malls are renovating and expanding to keep up with increased demand from new retailers. It's just that new malls are hardly being built for whatever reason.

In Edmonton, West Ed, Southgate, and Kingsway have all recently renovated or expanded (in the case of WEM, it is still in the process of renovation). City Centre, the downtown mall, is also rumoured to be planning a major renovation.

In Calgary, Chinook and the Core recently renovated, and other malls like Market Mall, Sunridge, and Southcentre seem to be doing well. There's also the new mall, CrossIron Mills.

Polo Park and St-Vital Centre seem to be doing great in Winnipeg.

Sherway, Yorkdale, Eaton, Square One, Upper Canada Mall, and Vaughan Mills all seem pretty healthy in Toronto too.

Etc. etc.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by vid

Winnipeg already had multiple downtown areas before Polo Park was built... you realize Winnipeg is the amalgamation of seven cities and towns, right? Central Winnipeg itself has several shopping areas in addition to Downtown itself, and they're all closer than Polo Park.

Even if Polo Park specifically hadn't been built, downtown's shopping area still would have been decimated by the suburban shopping malls (from regional malls to humble strip malls) that shot up in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

It's pretty amazing how quickly that sea change happened with respect to Winnipeg's retail habits, but then I suppose it isn't much different from what happened in most North American cities... downtown would have completely dominated the retail market right up to the early 1950s, followed by quick but decisive shift to suburban retail in the 1960s and 70s. Downtown retail was on life support when Portage Place was built as the saviour in the mid-1980s, and the demise of Eaton's in 1999 was more or less the death blow.

When I shopped downtown in the 90s it seemed dreary and underwhelming compared to the suburban malls, but in hindsight it was like a heyday when you look at its present sorry state.

Originally Posted by ue

I don't know, malls are pretty successful across the board, provided they're well managed and not in an oversaturated market. Many malls are renovating and expanding to keep up with increased demand from new retailers. It's just that new malls are hardly being built for whatever reason.

In Edmonton, West Ed, Southgate, and Kingsway have all recently renovated or expanded (in the case of WEM, it is still in the process of renovation). City Centre, the downtown mall, is also rumoured to be planning a major renovation.

In Calgary, Chinook and the Core recently renovated, and other malls like Market Mall, Sunridge, and Southcentre seem to be doing well. There's also the new mall, CrossIron Mills.

Polo Park and St-Vital Centre seem to be doing great in Winnipeg.

Sherway, Yorkdale, Eaton, Square One, Upper Canada Mall, and Vaughan Mills all seem pretty healthy in Toronto too.

Etc. etc.

Good point. But at the very least a critic could say that malls have not kept pace with the growth in retail spending... considering that per capita retail spending in Canada jumped from under $6,000 in the early 1990s to over $12,000 in 2011, you haven't seen many new shopping malls built during that time to cash in on that... just a few at most across the entire country. Even booming Alberta has only seen one major new mall go up over the past decade. Judging by what I see on the streets, I'd say that the growth has been concentrated in the power centres/big boxes.

[MolsonExport]

+Costco and Internet. The two gobble half of my retail dollars, easily. Even though I pine away for the Agincourt Mall.

[miketoronto]

But why must you have new shopping malls built to serve increased spending?

The fact of the matter is, that cities cannot support so many shopping areas, and that is why many new malls have not been built.

You are basically taking population centres that used be served by one major retail area (downtown), and now trying to serve that population with multiple carbon copy retail malls. All it does is dilute shoppers who would otherwise be going downtown or to another mall in the area. It does not create new spending.

Seriously, North America is over retailed as it is.

Take a stat from the book "Downtown". In the heyday of the Chicago Loop, 250,000 people a day shopped at the Marshall Fields Flagship store on State Street.

The building of branch stores and malls did not really bring in more sales. It just diluted those shoppers to other stores.

We are building much too much retail. And the only reason Canadian malls and retail are doing better than American retail, is because we did not go as overboard as the Americans. But we could be on the track to going overboard if we don't watch out.

[MolsonExport]

once again the spectre of Bari's shopping mall crisis looms large

[ue]

Originally Posted by esquire

Even if Polo Park specifically hadn't been built, downtown's shopping area still would have been decimated by the suburban shopping malls (from regional malls to humble strip malls) that shot up in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

It's pretty amazing how quickly that sea change happened with respect to Winnipeg's retail habits, but then I suppose it isn't much different from what happened in most North American cities... downtown would have completely dominated the retail market right up to the early 1950s, followed by quick but decisive shift to suburban retail in the 1960s and 70s. Downtown retail was on life support when Portage Place was built as the saviour in the mid-1980s, and the demise of Eaton's in 1999 was more or less the death blow.

When I shopped downtown in the 90s it seemed dreary and underwhelming compared to the suburban malls, but in hindsight it was like a heyday when you look at its present sorry state.



Good point. But at the very least a critic could say that malls have not kept pace with the growth in retail spending... considering that per capita retail spending in Canada jumped from under $6,000 in the early 1990s to over $12,000 in 2011, you haven't seen many new shopping malls built during that time to cash in on that... just a few at most across the entire country. Even booming Alberta has only seen one major new mall go up over the past decade. Judging by what I see on the streets, I'd say that the growth has been concentrated in the power centres/big boxes.

I'm guessing the market is pretty saturated for malls right now. I can't think of an area in Metro Edmonton, for example, that could support a large regional mall a la WEM, Southgate, and Kingsway. Although there has been great suburban expansion since the last wave of malls were built in the '80s, there still isn't enough distance from the large radius of these larger malls. People in newer Terwillegar will shop at Southgate just as people in older Parkallen will.

There are some more locally-focused malls that are successful, like Londonderry, City Centre, Bonnie Doon, Sherwood Park Mall, and MWTC. With the exception of City Centre, nobody really goes across the city to venture into these malls. You could theoretically see some more of these smaller scaled malls pop up, but I think most of that desire is being sucked up by power centres, which have the same local focus as the neighbourhood mall and strip mall have in older, mature suburbs.

In fact, more unsuccessful neighbourhood malls are just being turned into power centres or health centres (Westmount, Meadowlark, Mayfield, Capilano, Northgate, Northtown) or being demolished for TODs (Heritage Mall).

I think the most Edmonton will see, barring a Mills type mall being built, is maybe something out in the far flung suburbs, like Leduc or Spruce Grove or Fort Saskatchewan, once they become large enough.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

But why must you have new shopping malls built to serve increased spending?

The fact of the matter is, that cities cannot support so many shopping areas, and that is why many new malls have not been built.

You don't need new malls built to serve increased spending, but the fact is that there has been an awful lot of retail space built in the last 20 years... just next to none of it has been in malls. Big boxes and power centres didn't really exist in the 80s but they now sop up a huge portion of the retail dollar in Canada.

I take your point, though...Canadian cities, and downtowns in particular, would arguably be healthier with less suburban retail space. You can't blame the developers for wanting to meet market demand, but the municipal governments across the country have generally done a pretty lousy job of managing land use over the years.

[big W]

Originally Posted by ue

I think the most Edmonton will see, barring a Mills type mall being built, is maybe something out in the far flung suburbs, like Leduc or Spruce Grove or Fort Saskatchewan, once they become large enough.

Yes, it will be a "Mills Type" mall that is already anounced and will be built by YEG.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by esquire

You don't need new malls built to serve increased spending, but the fact is that there has been an awful lot of retail space built in the last 20 years... just next to none of it has been in malls. Big boxes and power centres didn't really exist in the 80s but they now sop up a huge portion of the retail dollar in Canada.

I take your point, though...Canadian cities, and downtowns in particular, would arguably be healthier with less suburban retail space. You can't blame the developers for wanting to meet market demand, but the municipal governments across the country have generally done a pretty lousy job of managing land use over the years.

I have no problem with having shopping available where people live, whether that be suburbs or in a CBD. I also have no problem with new commercial developments in suburbs. What I have a problem with is the form of development. Anti-pedestrian developments with huge parking lots and storefronts facing away from the fronting roads are terrible development forms. But I also think that the form of development is created by local cultural norms. From one city to another, I find the attitude towards availability of local shopping and distances required to travel vary widely.

[MolsonExport]

Westmount Mall in London is already almost Dead, but will now surely become so with the demise of Target. What other malls will probably die with the demise of Target?


metronews


budloughlin

[MolsonExport]

Some people are in serious denial: London shopping centre named to ‘incredibly desolate dead’ mall list, fights back

here is the list: http://www.bestchoicereviews.org/10-incredibly-desolate-dead-shopping-malls/

[HomeInMyShoes]

^Haha. I like how they had listed Target as a plus for the mall.

[haljackey]

Say what you want about Westmount Mall, it has been resilient fighting closure. It converted the second floor to office space, demolished the part that doesn't have underground parking below it, moved its movie theatre, and is leasing streetfront parking space for new stores.

With Target closing and Sears probably going kaput sometime soon, many malls including Westmount will be in a bad way. The absence of anchor stores will lead to their ultimate demise.
-I know Goodlife expressed some interest in converting some stores to gyms, but I don't know if this will take up the entire space.

It's been tough days for struggling malls, and they are about to get a lot tougher.

[blueandgoldguy]

Northgate Mall in Winnipeg barely qualifies as a mall (at capacity probably would be around 50 or so retail outlets), but it's a mall nonetheless. Zellers closed a few years ago and was the major anchor there. Even then it was pretty dead. Not sure when it was built (60s??, 70s??) but the interior appears untouched since its original construction..and that goes for the seats and benches in the mall itself!

What remains besides the empty store fronts, are some doctors offices, nail salon, pet shop, various bric-a-brack stores carrying discounted items, some cheapo clothing stores, used video game store, import store with japanese items (I think?), restaurants scattered throughout including a Chinese restaurant with a buffet, Ducky's Fish and Chips, Dairy Queen and Boston Pizza (also Fillipino restaurant but that went bankrupt), and Cinema City - Winnipeg's only remaining second run theatre and the only one I'm aware of that show films from the Phillipines and India.

I'm really only ever at Northgate for the movies that I missed in the first run theatres. From my infrequent walks in the mall prior to the movie, I'm surprised most of the retailers have been able to hold on although I'm usually there on a weekday night, not a weekend - that might have something to do with it.

The grocery store/convenience store seems to do solid business. The used video game store seems to have a decent number of patrons although several of those don't appear to be buying anything but are playing Magic the Gathering on tables in the back - items this store also sells along with other memorabilia. There are also several monitors at the back of the store which I suspect are for video game tournaments.

With Zellers gone, I think the theatre is the big draw. Most of the shows I have gone to weren't that well attended but the last time I went on a weekday I noticed the foreign film from the Phillipines was nearly sold out. I would suspect these films along with those from India probably draw several hundred people per night allowing the theatre to stay open. I'm sure some filter out to the various shops and restaurants prior to or after the show.

Cinema City Northgate only opened in the late 90s/early 2000s but I can't remember if it was an addition to the mall or if it refurbished from a previously existing anchor store. Regardless, if it didn't exist the mall would be even deader than it already is.

[esquire]

^ In the 80s, Northgate used to be a pretty busy place as it had both K-Mart and Zellers. But then Woolco up the road became a Wal-Mart and it's been a long, slow decline for about the last 20 years. It's actually a little amazing that there is as much going on at Northgate Mall as there is, given that there is no anchor since Zellers shut down a few years ago.

[MolsonExport]

So apparently the legendary Honeydale Mall (Etobicoke) has gone from dead to entombed.

The mall's No Frills supermarket closed in June 2013, and the entire mall was shuttered and locked up later that year, ending its 40 years of operation.

Can be seen in all its glory on Google Streetview, here: https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Honeyda...!1s0x882b37ee50efd239:0xa93647957dd4713e

[Acajack]

You know, it really shows that something is amiss with the way we do retail development in our cities when you have huge abandoned retail spaces in the middle of so many cities that are still prosperous and seeing population growth.