Dead Malls of Canada

[Barnard's Star]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

found another fugly mall. Behold the Galleria Mall in Toronto. Part of Ford Nation.


for the full treatment: http://www.blogto.com/fashion_style/2011/05/toronto_malls_in_need_of_makeovers_galleria_mall/

I've been to Galleria Mall a couple of times. It's not quite a dead mall but getting there. It's crappy discount t-shirts and not much else. Their Facebook page claims 40 stores open but that's got to be an exaggeration: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Galleria-Shopping-Centre/410581912288162?sk=info. The problem with Galleria is that Dufferin Mall, one of the busiest in the city, is so close by.

Your posts on Honeydale make me nostalgic. My mom used to take me there when I was a wee one. I called it the "bumble bee mall" because of the sign.

Edit: Perhaps we're over-stating the deadness of Galleria. It's an ugly place but it does have tenants: http://www.galleriashoppingcentre.ca/stores/

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

You guys are really grasping at straws to try and paint some malls as dead, which they are not.

Agincourt Mall is far from dead, despite a couple empty store fronts. It mainly is a community hub, where people go for food shopping, Walmart, and the food court, and some smaller retailers.

Just because a mall is not full of international chain stores, does not mean it is dead.

Little community malls such as Agincourt Mall, were never large regional destination malls. And why would they, when large malls are only blocks away, which is where one goes for major shopping.

Like others have said, the writing is on the wall. Malls die quite quickly, once a tipping point (exodus of a major anchor) is reached. I have seen this, time and time again.
Take Westmount Mall (London) which went from 95% leased to 55% leased in about a year, as a cascading effect of reduced traffic>closures>reduced traffic, etc. occurred.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Like others have said, the writing is on the wall. Malls die quite quickly, once a tipping point (exodus of a major anchor) is reached. I have seen this, time and time again.
Take Westmount Mall (London) which went from 95% leased to 55% leased in about a year, as a cascading effect of reduced traffic>closures>reduced traffic, etc. occurred.

Againcourt Mall has been the way it is for years. It was like that when I used to visit it with a friend who lived near there in high-school. And that was like over 10 years ago.

Cedarbrae Mall near my house, also in Scarborough, is/was much like Agincourt Mall, or worse. They renovated the mall, and it is doing just fine. Again, not a ton of big chain shops. But a large number of local shops that cater to the ethnic groups in the area, plus big anchors like Canadian Tire.
The mall again is not a huge destination, but it provides its neighborhood shopping role on an o.k. level.

Canada does have to watch out. But so far, we just do not have the level of mall vacancy the USA has. Part of this is due to proper planning controls, which many on here do not believe in.
If you want to ensure a healthy downtown and suburban malls, then cities may have to take steps to again limit retail expansion, like cities like Ottawa did in the 70's and 80's.

In terms of London. It is no surprise there that a mall has died. Why does such a small city require so many malls anyway? Cities the size of London really could never support more than the downtown retail district, yet London, like many other smaller cities, went on a suburban mall building spree. Instead of doing innovative things like not allowing suburban mall development, and instead incorporating a mall into the downtown area(I mean one mall, not the Galleria which was built after the suburban malls were built).

[GernB]

Not in the same league as the big cities, but in Lethbridge a 600,000 Sq ft mall (Park Place) was built on the edge of downtown in the late 80s as a part of railway relocation and almost destroyed the downtown. It destroyed the existing downtown urban shopping centre - Lethbridge Centre - a smaller version of say, Eatons Center - which is now occupied by the regional offices of Alberta Health Services and a few professional offices. It's become a wasteland, and the downtown area itself has only just begun to recover. And the Park Meadows mall on the city's northside, which was a fairly small (~40 stores) but perfectly suited mall for its area had about 50% of the mall area demolished, with the remaining area turned into a generic strip mall. And the same thing was done to the College Mall, on the city's south side, turning a 100 store mall into the 10-12 store College Centre, condos, a couple of free standing restaurants and two motels.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Againcourt Mall has been the way it is for years. It was like that when I used to visit it with a friend who lived near there in high-school. And that was like over 10 years ago.

Cedarbrae Mall near my house, also in Scarborough, is/was much like Agincourt Mall, or worse. They renovated the mall, and it is doing just fine. Again, not a ton of big chain shops. But a large number of local shops that cater to the ethnic groups in the area, plus big anchors like Canadian Tire.
The mall again is not a huge destination, but it provides its neighborhood shopping role on an o.k. level.

Canada does have to watch out. But so far, we just do not have the level of mall vacancy the USA has. Part of this is due to proper planning controls, which many on here do not believe in.
If you want to ensure a healthy downtown and suburban malls, then cities may have to take steps to again limit retail expansion, like cities like Ottawa did in the 70's and 80's.

In terms of London. It is no surprise there that a mall has died. Why does such a small city require so many malls anyway? Cities the size of London really could never support more than the downtown retail district, yet London, like many other smaller cities, went on a suburban mall building spree. Instead of doing innovative things like not allowing suburban mall development, and instead incorporating a mall into the downtown area(I mean one mall, not the Galleria which was built after the suburban malls were built).

Elsewhere in Canada, I find Regina and Saskatoon interesting. Neither have a hyper-dominant super-regional mall with huge numbers of stores, but both cities have what could be best described as their primary mall in the downtown area. If they could do a major expansion (although not sure if space is constrained), they could kill off the suburban malls since they already have a leg up on them.

[Bluenote]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

When I think of a "dead mall", I think of a former regional or super-regional mall that collapsed. Those malls I don't think were ever A-class or even B-class destinations.

That said, I think we are entering an era of fewer and fewer regional-level malls. In the GTA, there are about 20 now, excluding specialized malls such as Pacific Mall? I could see at least 10 to 12 of them disappearing in the next 10-15 years. Having 1,000,000 square feet of mostly empty space would not be efficient for community mall space (an ideal size for them is about 150,000 to 300,000 square feet, including smaller anchors such as a grocery store).

I'd be curious to see a ranking of the malls in terms of productivity per square foot. I figure that the Eaton Centre and Yorkdale would be 1-2, but I wonder what some of the low-rated ones are.

In regards to the comment on size and failure potential.

In Winnipeg we have 4 larger malls.
St vital centre
Polo Park
Kildonan Place
And very poorly managed Portage Place.

We do have many many smaller malls in recovery mode but not to the extent of what they were.

Winnipeg Square
Garden City
Grant Park
City Place

The last 4 are all healthy and doubtful they will die due to the boom in housing around them. Down town ones have many large scale condos going up including Sky City our soon to be tallest. Also the down town mall with the exception of Portage Place have lucrative leases that force traffic through them and not around them.

As for the initial comment about a mall that has never lost a 90% lease rate and is decades old. Lost major tenants but replaced them with more small stores in there place ( Safeway ) was part of St Vital mall and then moved to a stand alone in the same lot. The large cavern was renovated to house 30 or more stores and a huge new food court added and the theatre expanded. Whoolco was bought out by Wally and Wally stayed. Supposedly one of the only Walmarts to stay part of a mall. London Drugs then was added when Eatons took a dump and Sears took over the Eatons cavern. And there is still people wanting to expand this mall.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Vital_Centre


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polo_Park


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portage_Place


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_Park,_Winnipeg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Square


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kildonan_Place


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_City_Shopping_Centre_(Winnipeg)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cityplace_(Winnipeg)

I rated the malls according to their stature lol. City place is undergoing renovations and now houses the Shark Club and other higher end places.

Winnipeg Square is undergone or undergoing renovations and stores are filling again. Issue here is hours open. Should change once Sky City and Glass House are completed.

Portage Place is a mall with everything a mall needs. It's like having the best NHL players and having the worst Coach. Ie. horrible management as the owners don't care about it one bit. It attached by the cities sky walk has theatres has condo units as part of it. Large anchor tenants. YMCA part of it. University of Winnipeg part of it. Lots of heated underground parking. Two pads atop it for two future towers. But owners have not renovated it Once.

But st vital and polo park have beaten the odds and have stayed very full. So it is possible with good management.

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

But st vital and polo park have beaten the odds and have stayed very full. So it is possible with good management.

Beaten the odds ? They're the two malls in Winnipeg that can always be counted on to be successful. I have no clue why you seemed to imply that either of those two were ever in danger of anything remotely resembling insolvency. St. Vital , in particular , is probably the most successful mall in the city in terms of profitability. The odds that it'll go under are pretty slim. It has no competition.

It's hardly any sort of a surprise that the owners would like to see it expanded. It's , by far , the biggest mall in the entire southern half of the city. Come to think of it , it's basically the only mall in the southern half of the city and that also happens to be , by far , the most rapidly-growing sector of the city.

[vid]

I've been to both Polo Park and St. Vital, and to me, Polo Park was more like Thunder Bay's Intercity Mall than St. Vital, which was more of an "oh, so this is what malls in big cities are like" kind of experience for me. Polo Park felt like two copies of our mall stacked on top of each other. It's probably exactly what our mall will be like if they ever get permission to add a second floor to it.





St. Vital:



Which one of the two has a more "mall like" experience when you walk through it?

[Spocket]

@Vid

I'd say they're both equal in their own way. I guess if I had to choose I'd agree with you that St. Vital is more of an experience but they're both fairly generic in a way. Neither really offers much more than shopping. When I think of the "big city" kind of mall , I think of it as an entertainment destination as much as a shopping hub.

The biggest mall in the region I live in (in China now) doesn't look like much from the outside but inside it has a gym , badminton courts , the obligatory theaters (including Imax) a huge children's play area (complete with elevated 'train') a virtual roller coaster (the kind that shows a movie of being on a roller coaster while all the seating tips and rocks etc.) and all the other accoutrements. Granted , it's a big mall by any standard (probably 300 or 400 stores) but this being China the variety is limited. It's not what anybody would call spectacular but I would say that it offers an awful lot more than simple shopping. That's what a big city mall is (in my opinion) and while we've got a few like that in Canada , you've got to go to Edmonton , Toronto , or Vancouver to get the same experience.

[Tetsuo]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

International Village (Erroneously called Tinsletown) is no longer a dead mall, in fact, supposedly it's full. I was there last month and it looked busier than ever.

http://www.internationalvillagemall.ca/info/unit-availability.php

Helps that most units are occupied by offices or art galleries. Still the main floor is frequently busy, especially when people get off work. Still plenty of room for improvement, but its good to see the mall bustling with activity.

Originally Posted by casper

What was the cause? Did the first batch of retails go in assuming a suburb orientation to the customer base or was the timing off?

The timing of the mall in its area was off a decade. The surrounding area is in the process of gentrifying just recently.

[Gresto]

Not a mall, but Bathurst Manor Plaza in North York has been moribund for years. It doesn't make much sense, because there aren't a whole lot of shopping opportunities in close proximity. A grocery store, which used to be there, should be a sure bet.

https://maps.google.ca/?ll=43.7636,-79.4...DIIVjZZm5B7wp7lOtkC6GQ&cbp=12,80.61,,0,0

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by Tetsuo

Helps that most units are occupied by offices or art galleries. Still the main floor is frequently busy, especially when people get off work. Still plenty of room for improvement, but its good to see the mall bustling with activity.

The timing of the mall in its area was off a decade. The surrounding area is in the process of gentrifying just recently.

Bad timing, bad plans, perhaps good plans in the loong run but bad financially.
The whole thing is fishy to me.

[Tetsuo]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

Bad timing, bad plans, perhaps good plans in the loong run but bad financially.
The whole thing is fishy to me.

Def fishy once you find out Henderson Place in Coquitlam, another "dead" mall is also owned by whoever owns IV.

[YYCguys]

Back in the 90s when I was in university in Lethbridge (Alberta, for those of you from outside Alberta), the plan for Lethbridge Centre Mall was to build a residential tower over the above ground parkade beside The Bay. At that time, there was quite a good retail mix in the mall part of the complex, and also included a Safeway grocery store. The residential tower was to mirror the shape and height of the existing office tower on the opposite end of the mall. When Park Place Mall opened on the other side of downtown, Lethbridge Centre's retailers seemed to jump ship, including the Safeway. As mentioned in a previous post, the mall hosts mostly offices now. So now I bet the residential tower plan is completely mothballed. It's too bad. It would have been Lethbridge's first truly mixed use complex.

[GernB]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Back in the 90s when I was in university in Lethbridge (Alberta, for those of you from outside Alberta), the plan for Lethbridge Centre Mall was to build a residential tower over the above ground parkade beside The Bay. At that time, there was quite a good retail mix in the mall part of the complex, and also included a Safeway grocery store. The residential tower was to mirror the shape and height of the existing office tower on the opposite end of the mall. When Park Place Mall opened on the other side of downtown, Lethbridge Centre's retailers seemed to jump ship, including the Safeway. As mentioned in a previous post, the mall hosts mostly offices now. So now I bet the residential tower plan is completely mothballed. It's too bad. It would have been Lethbridge's first truly mixed use complex.

The original plan for Lethbridge Centre - in the 70s - called for a residential tower along the south side of the mall and a 230 room hotel along the north. Both would have been about 12 storeys. 5th Avenue between Scenic Drive and 4th street was to be closed, and the provincial building was to be attached to the mall (the province objected to this and the idea was dropped early on). There were rumours early on that there would be two department stores rather than the one. Delta was to be the hotel operator IIRC. In addition there was to be a swimming pool, health club and tennis courts on the roof of the mall. Needless to say none of this ever came to be.

It's really a shame what's happened to Lethbridge Centre and downtown in general. I worked at Central Guaranty Trust on 4th avenue in the late 80s and regularly ate at the food court in the mall. There was a coffee place that had dozens of varieties long before Starbucks or Esquires came here. Now there's little but Alberta Health Services regional offices.

Allowing the development of Park Place in its present location was a huge mistake. Although Lethbridge Centre responded by adding a 2nd level and seemed to thrive for a while, it was only a matter of time before the easier access to and parking at Park Place took its toll. The fact that there were many of the same stores at both places (only 3 blocks apart) didn't help either. The city should have stuck with original plan for the railway lands, expanding Galt Gardens northward and building high density housing on the remaining area. There'd actually be a few people living in or near the downtown. Park Place should have gone out on the city's southeast perimeter, where the major commercial strip is. The mall sucked most of the business out of the downtown area. Though the city has come up with various plans for "revitalization", apart from a few tree plantings and some sidewalk rehab, nothing ever seems to happen.

[ssiguy]

The mall seems to be a dying fad but much of the decline had nothing to do with the mall or how it was managed or even the stores in it but rather issues that were beyond it's control.

Of course the big one for many malls especially downtown ones in mid-sized cities was the collapse of Eaton's. Often it was the main anchor of the mall and with it's demise the mall had no major anchor tenant so the reason to go to the mall itself declines and as the stores began to leave, it built on itself and the malls basically collapsed.

Although this hurt the downtown with so many mini "Eaton Centres" across the downtowns, the downtown did have a far better opportunity to fill that space with government/business offices or civic space. An excellent example is the Galleria in downtown London which went from a gaping hole in the core to now housing UWO/Fanshawe campuses, small offices, and the new downtown Library................dead suburban malls usually don't have that kind of opportunity.

The other thing we must remember is changing demographics. Think about it, when were most of these malls built?...........1970 to 1985. At the time they were in the fast growing suburbs with working parents and tons of kids but now those fast growing outer suburbs have become the slow/no growth older suburbs of today. The kids have left for the new suburbs further out or gone downtown leaving a smaller population. Also very importantly they have left a much more elderly population who's largest income years are behind them as they start collecting their pensions and they retire from the jobs. They not only have lower incomes than they once did but also buy a lot less. Thee older people get the less they are going to be spending on the latest fad, clothing styles, hi-tech gadgets, eating out, and even fewer groceries as they kids are gone.

Outside of things like groceries or drug stores, clothing/TVs, gadgets, shoes made up the bulk of a malls stores catering to a younger generation with high mark-up products. The busy malls of 30 years ago are trying to stay alive with fewer buyers with less money who don't buy the latest fads for themselves or their kids like they use to, all in a higher rent environment which malls charge as opposed to non-enclosed big box centres.

[WhipperSnapper]

I really don't see malls on the decline in Toronto. Those that are struggling have pretty much struggling since their inception. Others are left to waste by ownership that have already submitted over the last decade redevelopment schemes that involve the complete demolition of the mall for apartment towers with ground floor retail. This includes the Galleria and Honeydale.

[miketoronto]

Polo Park is Winnipeg's "downtown". It is where stores which only have one location in Winnipeg locate.
It is the reason downtown Winnipeg is on life support.
Who ever through building a super regional mall 3km from the heart of the city was a good idea, really thought wrong.

[MolsonExport]

A bit dated, but still relevant:
Wall Street Journal, 2009: Recession Turns Malls Into Ghost Towns

[MolsonExport]

More recent commentary (Glob and Snail article): Why U.S. retailers failed to capture Canadian dollars

The Ron Jeremy line of velour bath robe attire was the beginning of the end.