Phoenix Development News (3)

[PHX31]

I typically agree with your take on a lot of things JJS, but with this, you're crazy!

Go to any of the existing residential developments in downtown Scottsdale (how about the original Optima). I bet you spend 30 minutes until you even see 1 person leave the building and "interact with the City".

Now go to any of the similar ASU buildings downtown (how about the Cronkite School of Journalism). I bet you see a ton of people interacting with the city and milling about, walking places, going to and from Light rail, other ASU buildings, the Rec Center, Public Market, etc. etc.

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by soleri

I generally agree with the proposition that not all old buildings can or should be preserved. On the other hand, what Phoenix lacks more than anything is the "cool factor", the buzz and vibe of the urban young in their habitat. Every great city exudes the energy of cool neighborhoods filled with clubs, brewpubs, and lofts. It's a completely different experience than what you find in 'burbs. Ideally, this district should have been located in the previous arts district on west Jackson St., but the county swooped in and gobbled it up. Yesterday's cool hood is today's latest dead zone. Downtown will never be more convenient, have easier parking, or feel safer than the suburbs. What it should have is something much better - authenticity. Old red bricks have their own magic in a city where spray stucco rules. I'd be very leery of destroying one more old building downtown no matter how marginal it is. Downtown Phoenix needs every red brick it can find.

Phoenix, IMO, lacks a "cool" factor for a number of reasons:

1) Millenials and young professionals do not all live in one area. You look at other cities that have vibrant neighborhoods and you will notice that young people tend to cluster in certain areas. Sure, ASU in Tempe and Downtown have a younger crowd because of the school's presence. However, they are mostly temporary residents who desert the place on breaks and over the summer. Millenials, like me, live all over. I have coworkers my age who live in Buckeye, Goodyear, Gilbert, North Phoenix, Mesa, Tempe, the PV Mall area, and even Ahwatukee.

2) Downtown Phoenix is simply too hot and unshaded to be vibrant. I know many people disagree with this assertion, but the heat truly does stifle a lot of Phoenix's urban street scene. I abhor the city's new direction in putting in mangy desert trees with extremely poor shading downtown, thinking that those trees will make streets look more "inviting." The fact of the matter is these trees are too small and too wimpy to provide enough shade to make it even remotely less uncomfortable to walk down a downtown street. Mill Avenue's ficus trees would work wonders downtown. Anything to lessen the impact of direct sunlight could help downtown. As of now, even attempting to walk around downtown on a 108 degree day is basically pure hell.

3) There is no grocery store. I left downtown partially because of the absence of a grocery store. This was a huge gripe of mine and my neighbors. Sure, there is a grocery store at 7th St and McDowell and 7th Ave and Osborn, but that is a chore. If you want to buy a lot of groceries, you absolutely require a car to get to either grocery store. I-10, even though it is below grade, still feels like an enormous barrier to cross on foot or by bike to reach either store. A Fry's as part of the new Central Station development or in the vacant lot next to CityScape would be an enormous step in helping to attract people to downtown living.

These are just a FEW factors that work against downtown Phoenix. Saving abandoned brick structures is really not the conversation we need to be having. If redeveloping the red brick structures was viewed by developers as a demand, they would be the first group in to swoop down and repurpose the buildings. As I have said multiple times, the buildings remain empty. How long do we have to wait for these shanties to be redeveloped? Could it also be possible that a small segment of the population sees more value in preserving brick structures than the masses? Why do we have to sacrifice having gentrified neighborhoods for the desires of a few? Do we all really believe that preserving brick buildings will give Phoenix a "cool" factor or are we just trying to replicate what we've seen in LoDo, Portland, and San Diego so we can say that we're part of the club too? That doesn't seem very authentic to me.

What would be authentic would be creating a downtown from a blank slate. Blocks of downtown Phoenix have been leveled for other uses. Why don't we take the vacant parcels, demolish the perpetually vacant structures, and start fresh?

[PHX31]

/\there have been plenty of empty lots for years. Why haven't developers swooped in and redeveloped them? Because of the exact same reason why vacant historic brick structures on pieces of land downtown haven't been redeveloped. Not because there isn't interest (as according to you), but because there isn't interest a the land - banked/speculative price point a developer would have to pay due to up zoning.

[TakeFive]

I think Freeway's comment is very good. Denver though has survived and thrived without any downtown grocery stores. It's been a sore point and that is about to finally change.

I think his Par. 2 makes a lot of sense, though I'd hope as some of those trees grow that will improve things somewhat. Much more needs to be done with streetscaping.

[TakeFive]

I sense that Phoenix is gathering itself, starting to find some momentum. Would it be better if more had happened sooner. Well yeah, duh. Downtown is not currently very competitive for office space sadly but it's not totally dead in the water.

With respect to Scottsdale, Airpark is as bad as Mid-Town. They've been sucking jet fuel fumes. While they have had some wins over the last few years it seems to barely have moved the vacancy needle.

Scottsdale Quarter is "very Scottsdale." They did have to hit the pause button when the recession hit but now they're again building out the plan. It's largely irrelevant to Phoenix though. SkySong languished for a long time but has finally gotten some good momentum. Good for them. Old Town has landed a few Bay area companies who have expanded. That's not a big surprise to me.

BTW, there are many Scottsdale residents who bemoan the addition of density. Some think it will be Scottsdale's demise. Doomed to die a slow death, new apartment building by new apartment building. LOL

I love it that the Sandra Day O'Connor College of Law is locating downtown. Big, big plus.

[TakeFive]

With respect to Tempe (I don't follow closely) while they had some positive things happening, who anticipated the explosive growth? Anybody, Bueller? When you land a huge anchor like State Farm it has a huge impact.

The same thing is happening in Dallas (actually Richardson) and in Atlanta where State Farm is also building regional HQ's.

I don't see how you can blame downtown Phoenix anymore than you should blame downtown Dallas or Atlanta.

In time downtown Phoenix can become a very special place that is wholly different from Scottsdale or Tempe. When its time arrives it will then have the new Class AA space and be way more cool than those other places.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHX31

I typically agree with your take on a lot of things JJS, but with this, you're crazy!

Go to any of the existing residential developments in downtown Scottsdale (how about the original Optima). I bet you spend 30 minutes until you even see 1 person leave the building and "interact with the City".

Now go to any of the similar ASU buildings downtown (how about the Cronkite School of Journalism). I bet you see a ton of people interacting with the city and milling about, walking places, going to and from Light rail, other ASU buildings, the Rec Center, Public Market, etc. etc.

Context. If you put those same residential developments in the built environment of downtown Phoenix instead, where there is more cultural and recreational amenities within a smaller imprint, people might behave differently. It's okay, though. I'm not saying ASU is a bad thing (though I think their designs have been poor). I'm just saying other cities are attracting new development, while Phoenix has been attracting redevelopment and adaptive reuse, making it all the more important to preserve what's left.

The Welnick Bros. warehouse on Van Buren is a perfect example. That was slated for demolition in 2006/2007 for the Calder Tower project. Thankfully, they never got as far as a demolition permit, because the project failed to get off the ground, and now - after being abandoned for over a decade - the warehouse is being restored to its former glory and will be a retail/restaurant marketplace. And, WVB is much more desolate and risky of an investment than the Warehouse District, IMO.

In Phoenix development news (so that this is somewhat on topic):
1) It looks like something might be happening on 4th Ave/McKinley. A site plan review for the project was scheduled, but canceled, so I don't know any details. Something like the Lofts at McKinley just west of the lot would be great (but condos or market rate rentals instead).
2) In addition, the community is gathering feedback to present to the City to encourage them to issue an RFP for the two city-owned lots just east between 2nd and 3rd Avenues: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/23mckinleyrfp
3) Portland on the Park is set to break ground March 25th; the adjacent hotel is slated to open this fall.
4) 2 proposals were submitted for Portland/2nd Street - 1 was selected and is moving forward with City agreements... the 2 proposals were a 3-story condo complex and a containers project
5) More in-depth look at the recommendations for the Pappas School site: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2wTywJhXfDeTzQ2YzkyZDUwdVBBbnRBeXR2bFZNVE1PUmxv/view
6) 4-story condos at 2nd Street/Moreland are slated to break ground in April

TakeFive - the growth in Tempe was absolutely expected and was occurring well before the State Farm announcement. Tempe has the largest, most vibrant, walkable downtown business district of any city in metro Phoenix, immediately adjacent to one of the largest university campuses in the country, with a recreational and aesthetic amenity in its center that nowhere else can offer (Tempe Town Lake). It has convenient access to multiple modes of mass transit (light rail and great local bus system and circulators), with plans to add even more (streetcar). It was perfectly suited to attract investment catered toward the young professional market, as well as to attract more and more businesses that want to leverage the proximity to a talent base like ASU. The hotels and retail that followed were just an inevitable spinoff of this growth. Tempe was a hot market during the boom, and picked up right where it left off during this most recent cycle.

[PHXFlyer11]

That is great news on Portland on the Park! Big wins for Phoenix if Portland, Ballpark apartments, central station, union, and Luhr's all happen! Which is what looks like will happen. Lots of new residents! Hopefully we see some movement on Barrister soon.

[Obadno]

Lots of grumbles!

Hey Guys lets not be upset I started lurking here back in 2007 or so. Do you remember what Downtown was like 8-10 years ago?

We are light-years ahead of where we were! I see nothing but awesome progress. Would it be great if we could reproduce Tempe immediately? Sure, but that's not going to happen.

Many Many cities have had trouble recovering from the days of Urban Renewal, the difference is many cities had downtowns before the 1940's while phoenix existed it was never more than a town, We never developed pre-war bones to build off.

Everything needs to be from scratch, it will take a long time.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

That is great news on Portland on the Park! Big wins for Phoenix if Portland, Ballpark apartments, central station, union, and Luhr's all happen! Which is what looks like will happen. Lots of new residents! Hopefully we see some movement on Barrister soon.

I added some more news to the post above. Looks like 2nd St/Moreland condos and 2nd St/Portland residential could both be coming soon, as well.

Don't forget about 4th St/McKinley.

I think these projects in Evans Churchill/Roosevelt will have a much bigger impact than some of the larger ones like Central Station, Barrister and Ballpark. Those 3 could have been so much more given their locations, IMO. Barrister is the best of all 3, but < 200 units is still pretty lame for a corner that could support MUCH taller than 6 stories, and is adjacent to perhaps the most bustling center of downtown (CityScape).

Obadno - I agree. I just want to reiterate that I wasn't trying to dump on downtown. I was only trying to make the point that adaptive reuse is attracting much more investment than new construction is. That's something that sets downtown Phoenix apart from its suburbs, and is something it should continue to leverage. The "tear it all down" mentality is a lose-lose, IMO.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

I added some more news to the post above. Looks like 2nd St/Moreland condos and 2nd St/Portland residential could both be coming soon, as well.

Don't forget about 4th St/McKinley.

.

Any known renderings of these?

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Any known renderings of these?

Nothing for the 2nd Street projects. All that I know is Moreland will be 4 stories, and Portland will either be 3 stories or containers, depending on which proposal the City selected (I would assume the 3-story one).

Here is a link to the one for 4th St/McKinley. I'll rave once again that this is the perfect project for this area. Right amount of height/density (5 stories, 100+ units), live/work units that will activate both 4th Street and McKinley, and being built on a lot that will create a really great connection with 215 McKinley (315? Moira condos), Skyline Lofts and Roosevelt Point. It also utilizes the alleyway for parking access, so there are no curb cuts included in the entire project.

http://azbex.com/live-work-apartments-in-the-mix-for-downtown-phoenix/

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Context. If you put those same residential developments in the built environment of downtown Phoenix instead, where there is more cultural and recreational amenities within a smaller imprint, people might behave differently. It's okay, though. I'm not saying ASU is a bad thing (though I think their designs have been poor). I'm just saying other cities are attracting new development, while Phoenix has been attracting redevelopment and adaptive reuse, making it all the more important to preserve what's left.

The Welnick Bros. warehouse on Van Buren is a perfect example. That was slated for demolition in 2006/2007 for the Calder Tower project. Thankfully, they never got as far as a demolition permit, because the project failed to get off the ground, and now - after being abandoned for over a decade - the warehouse is being restored to its former glory and will be a retail/restaurant marketplace. And, WVB is much more desolate and risky of an investment than the Warehouse District, IMO.

I totally 100% agree about preserving what's left. I thought we were disagreeing about the state of development in Downtown Phoenix vs the state of development in Downtown Scottsdale and Downtown Chandler.

Either way, it seems like people enjoy bagging on Phoenix, and have for years (and recently in other threads besides this one). Sure, Phoenix could (should) be better, but it has a lot going on that somehow always gets overlooked. It doesn't have the bones left to be a classic early 20th century city - apparently the only type of city that forumers on SSP spooge over. However, it does have it's own charms that a lot of people enjoy (that aren't "skyscraper geeks"). Mid-century Modern is gaining a lot of momentum as something to be admired in the eyes of a lot of people, and Phoenix has that going for it in spades. Adaptive reuses of these MC and MCM spaces around Phoenix is very hot and enjoyed by the common, non forumer, folk. Look at areas like around LGO, Beefeaters, Windsor/Churn/Postino/(future Uptown Square), The Yard on 7th St, and many others. It's not the classic walkable urban junk that seems to be the only "it" factor a city can have on SSP. But those areas are immensely popular and have the "it" factor in the eyes of most normal young/professional/engaging-with-their-city adults. They may be accessed by cars for the most part, but there are a lot of people that walk and ride their bike to these places, and that's just how it is. I think it's great and one reason why when I hear people whine about the downfall of dusty old Phoenix time and time again, I just . (not really even directing this at you Jjs)

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

In Phoenix development news (so that this is somewhat on topic):
1) It looks like something might be happening on 4th Ave/McKinley. A site plan review for the project was scheduled, but canceled, so I don't know any details. Something like the Lofts at McKinley just west of the lot would be great (but condos or market rate rentals instead).

I don't follow what you are saying here. It's good the site plan review was cancelled? Or you're just saying the fact that there was a site plan created in the first place is the good news?

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

3) Portland on the Park is set to break ground March 25th; the adjacent hotel is slated to open this fall.
4) 2 proposals were submitted for Portland/2nd Street - 1 was selected and is moving forward with City agreements... the 2 proposals were a 3-story condo complex and a containers project
6) 4-story condos at 2nd Street/Moreland are slated to break ground in April

Nice! (regarding Portland on the Park)

I hope that whole area north of Roosevelt/Portland fills in with a ton of small individual developments. It would make it much more unique and intimate if so, rather than a developer gathering a bunch of land for a massive project.

What ever happened to the talk about that one small business (I think a coffee shop) building a two story building just south of 1st St and Portland?

And what's the deal with the last grand old house south of 2nd St and Moreland that's boarded up? Hopefully that's not endangered.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

TakeFive - the growth in Tempe was absolutely expected and was occurring well before the State Farm announcement. Tempe has the largest, most vibrant, walkable downtown business district of any city in metro Phoenix, immediately adjacent to one of the largest university campuses in the country, with a recreational and aesthetic amenity in its center that nowhere else can offer (Tempe Town Lake). It has convenient access to multiple modes of mass transit (light rail and great local bus system and circulators), with plans to add even more (streetcar). It was perfectly suited to attract investment catered toward the young professional market, as well as to attract more and more businesses that want to leverage the proximity to a talent base like ASU. The hotels and retail that followed were just an inevitable spinoff of this growth. Tempe was a hot market during the boom, and picked up right where it left off during this most recent cycle.

Nicely stated. Can't argue with any of that; that was my sense of things. Obviously Tempe's growth has not helped downtown Phoenix.

I would contend that landing a company who's creating two million square feet of office space is huge and doesn't come along often. It just does have its own big impact.

State Farm clearly did not prefer a downtown location whether in Phoenix, Dallas or Atlanta. It's worth noting however that in both Dallas (Richardson) and Atlanta there will be nearby rail transit. The Atlanta site appears to be especially similar to Tempe except there's no big university.

Timing and momentum are everything and Tempe is there. Nothing that Phoenix can do about that.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Here is a link to the one for 4th St/McKinley. I'll rave once again that this is the perfect project for this area. Right amount of height/density (5 stories, 100+ units), live/work units that will activate both 4th Street and McKinley, and being built on a lot that will create a really great connection with 215 McKinley (315? Moira condos), Skyline Lofts and Roosevelt Point. It also utilizes the alleyway for parking access, so there are no curb cuts included in the entire project.

http://azbex.com/live-work-apartments-in-the-mix-for-downtown-phoenix/

Very nice! Hop this breaks ground soon.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by PHX31

I totally 100% agree about preserving what's left.

Either way, it seems like people enjoy bagging on Phoenix, and have for years (and recently in other threads besides this one). Sure, Phoenix could (should) be better, but it has a lot going on that somehow always gets overlooked. It doesn't have the bones left to be a classic early 20th century city - apparently the only type of city that forumers on SSP spooge over. However, it does have it's own charms that a lot of people enjoy (that aren't "skyscraper geeks). Mid-century Modern is gaining a lot of momentum as something to be admired in the eyes of a lot of people, and Phoenix has that going for it in spades. Adaptive reuses of these MC and MCM spaces around Phoenix is very hot and enjoyed by the common, non forumer, folk. Look at areas like around LGO, Beefeaters, Windsor/Churn/Postino/(future Uptown Square), The Yard on 7th St, and many others. It's not the classic walkable urban junk that seems to be the only "it" factor a city can have on SSP. But those areas are immensely popular and have the "it" factor in the eyes of most normal young/professional/engaging-with-their-city adults. They may be accessed by cars for the most part, but there are a lot of people that walk and ride their bike to these places, and that's just how it is. I think it's great and one reason why when I hear about people whine about the downfall of dusty old Phoenix time and time again, I just . (not really even directing this at you Jjs)

I think preservation can be taken to an unnecessary extreme. Denver has continued to lose a number of old buildings which have been replaced by some awesome new development. Some buildings have only an interesting history but are often no more than an empty shell.

I could also relate a number of stories about how an historical building was brought back to useable life. The undertaking is very difficult and very costly. It's also been very worth it for those buildings that were saved.

I do like the essence of what you talk about here though. It's almost as appropriate to suggest that downtown Phoenix is re-developing from the outside in. If it works, it works for me.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

I think preservation can be taken to an unnecessary extreme. Denver has continued to lose a number of old buildings which have been replaced by some awesome new development. Some buildings have only an interesting history but are often no more than an empty shell.

In most cases I'd still rather have the empty historic building preserved, no matter how important it may or may not be. There have been tons of examples where the new development has not been awesome... And in many other cases, new development never happens and it's simply left to rot as a dusty lot or parking lot.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHX31

I totally 100% agree about preserving what's left. I thought we were disagreeing about the state of development in Downtown Phoenix vs the state of development in Downtown Scottsdale and Downtown Chandler.

Either way, it seems like people enjoy bagging on Phoenix, and have for years (and recently in other threads besides this one). Sure, Phoenix could (should) be better, but it has a lot going on that somehow always gets overlooked. It doesn't have the bones left to be a classic early 20th century city - apparently the only type of city that forumers on SSP spooge over. However, it does have it's own charms that a lot of people enjoy (that aren't "skyscraper geeks"). Mid-century Modern is gaining a lot of momentum as something to be admired in the eyes of a lot of people, and Phoenix has that going for it in spades. Adaptive reuses of these MC and MCM spaces around Phoenix is very hot and enjoyed by the common, non forumer, folk. Look at areas like around LGO, Beefeaters, Windsor/Churn/Postino/(future Uptown Square), The Yard on 7th St, and many others. It's not the classic walkable urban junk that seems to be the only "it" factor a city can have on SSP. But those areas are immensely popular and have the "it" factor in the eyes of most normal young/professional/engaging-with-their-city adults. They may be accessed by cars for the most part, but there are a lot of people that walk and ride their bike to these places, and that's just how it is. I think it's great and one reason why when I hear people whine about the downfall of dusty old Phoenix time and time again, I just . (not really even directing this at you Jjs)



I don't follow what you are saying here. It's good the site plan review was cancelled? Or you're just saying the fact that there was a site plan created in the first place is the good news?



Nice! (regarding Portland on the Park)

I hope that whole area north of Roosevelt/Portland fills in with a ton of small individual developments. It would make it much more unique and intimate if so, rather than a developer gathering a bunch of land for a massive project.

What ever happened to the talk about that one small business (I think a coffee shop) building a two story building just south of 1st St and Portland?

And what's the deal with the last grand old house south of 2nd St and Moreland that's boarded up? Hopefully that's not endangered.

Sorry for the confusion. Was trying to say that it was good news that the empty lot on 4th Ave/McKinley was/will be seeing some action.

Lux Commonwealth is still planned, as far as I know, for the 1.5-story building at Portland/1st Street (to be used for Sutra Yoga) + adjacent lot (where a 2-story building will be constructed with Lux on the ground level, and an apartment atop) to the south. The City was making the process as difficult as possible last I heard, but I think it's past all of that... don't know of any groundbreaking/grand opening dates, though.

There's 2 really nice old houses left on 2nd Street north of Roosevelt. The one between Roosevelt and Portland is the Knipe House, and was part of a recent RFP sent out by the City for much of the land between Roosevelt and Portland along 2nd. The proposal (by the developers who brought us Encore and The Residences on Farmer in Tempe, and Encore I and II on Main in Mesa) that won had plans for ~4-story senior housing, with ~20% reserved for market rate rentals, with ground level art gallery/retail space. The Knipe house was to be converted into a brewery. The community revolted against the project because they felt seniors were not the right fit for the community, which I felt was horribly misguided and ageist, but it was still ultimately approved. Unfortunately, the project never received funding, and I imagine the market rate additions nor the historic preservation components helped any.
Site Plan for "The Row" : http://downtowndevil.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/therow_design.jpg

As of now, the City is still deciding what to do with the land and house... IMO, the houses between Garfield - Fillmore, 7th Street - 1st Street that are scattered about the future Biomedical Campus should all be relocated in this area, and RFP'd with the Knipe House for adaptive reuse.

The other home is between Portland and Moreland, and hasn't been the source of any proposals. I think it's gorgeous (2 stories) and more appealing than the Knipe House, but

In regards to this area, I agree that infill will be key. Hopefully, if both Moreland/2nd St and Portland/2nd St are built with residential, some more projects of similar scope will be built. I think a mix of residential and live/work would create a nice, diverse community with the needed density to make both Roosevelt Row and Hance Park thrive.

Related to this area, the City will also be issuing an RFP at some point for the Firehouse at Hance Park/1st Street. Another perfect spot for a brewery IMO.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Very nice! Hop this breaks ground soon.

Demolition of the existing 1-story building has begun/finished, so it's on its way!

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by PHX31

In most cases I'd still rather have the empty historic building preserved, no matter how important it may or may not be. There have been tons of examples where the new development has not been awesome... And in many other cases, new development never happens and it's simply left to rot as a dusty lot or parking lot.

I wish I could articulate better but with respect to Phoenix I'm largely unfamiliar with the specifics. I should have added that in assessing buildings in Denver one significant question is the condition of the foundation; what's even there and its current state. Some buildings have little foundation on which to preserve. Others can be reinforced, rebuilt etc.

Couple of days ago I mentioned the Z Block redevelopment. In the comment section I suggested:

"I don’t recall the previous discussion or what they own along Blake Street, but it appears that they will scrape the two one-story buildings but keep the rest. That has to please those that much prefer to preserve. Very satisfying."

To which Ken Schroeppel replied:

"Those two one-story buildings in the middle of the Blake Street side of the block are non-contributing structures to the LoDo Historic District and can be demolished with approval. The other Blake Street buildings are contributing, so they’re definitely staying. Grand American owns the whole block I believe."

Ken is our downtown/urban expert. He knows the historical guidelines well. Denver has a very good and thorough process for assessing historical buildings. It's complicated and they've surveyed not only downtown but many of the neighborhoods. There's a significant assessment and screening process that takes place.