PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[Private Dick]

I'm just happy that there will be: 1) a store called SHINOLA in the new building and 2) great views of the Dollar Tree store across the street

[JVC]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

I'm just happy that there will be: 1) a store called SHINOLA in the new building and 2) great views of the Dollar Tree store across the street

those blue and rust colored panels look even more awful when the rendering is enlarged

at this point it's safe to say this building is going to be the worst thing to happen to east liberty since the 1970's urban renewal

aside from the fact that the design looks like something out of soviet russia and doesn't even attempt to fit into the architecture of the area,
the building doesn't even have a front door

instead residents are going to be forced to enter the building through a back door in a dark alley that is currently known as antler way

society has lost its mind

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Well, that's the precise point we have been addressing so far. Since it turns out that dollar stores have a mixed-income customer base, and that in recent years they have specifically targeted with success higher-income customers, from a development perspective there is really no reason to be concerned about one being located in a mixed-income neighborhood which is adding some apartments and such targeted at higher-income customers. But I understand you are now raising different concerns.



I don't see how that addresses your concerns. The drug stores, convenience stores, Target, Walmart, and so on are actually buying wholesale and reselling many of the same products from the same manufacturers. As noted in the articles I linked, these days dollar stores are also carrying the exact same brands as well. But even when the brands are different, you will often find the manufacturers are the same. Meanwhile, Target, for example, actually created a dollar-store-type section within the store--the "Dollar Spot"--with a rotating product lineup to compete back with dollar stores. In the East Liberty store, it is right behind the shopping carts.

Now it is is true dollar stores are sometimes buying surplus lots--but surplus from whom? It is often surplus from these other stores. And from the perspective of the concerns you cited, I don't see why it matters whether a store was the first buyer or the surplus buyer if the goods ultimately were part of the same original order.

So while these concerns are valid, I really don't understand the case for singling out just dollar stores as a target for those concerns.

Incidentally, all this has become enough of a concern for consumers that various major retailers have been adopting "sustainability" initiatives to address those concerns--including as it turns out, Dollar Tree:

http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/D...EA7-B3BC-D90A537CFC2F/Sustainability.pdf

I certainly would not discourage people from looking at those policies as they evolve over time, and potentially favoring those chains which they think have better policies at a given time. But I don't think it is going to be a useful heuristic to assume that Dollar Tree has a worse policy on a given issue than any given drug stores, convenience store, discount department store, or so on--I think you will need to look at and compare the policies in detail, because in one way or another they are all responding to both these "sustainability" pressures on the one hand, but also many other competitive and financial pressures on the other.

I simply don't care for the stores for a number of reasons: excess waste generation, importation/distribution of toxic products, further stifling/elimination of small business enterprises in neighborhoods (particularly in lower to mixed income neighborhoods), labor practices.

Dollar stores also carry a large percentage of "off brands"... brands that others do not carry. These brands are generally the culprits when it comes to the toxics issue. And much of the dollar store surplus purchase comes direct from low-quality manufacturers in China via middleman brokers for brand names, and not from other stores (purchases from other stores usually is in the form of closeouts/unsold clearance,returns, expiration date/damaged items).

"Sustainability" initiatives have primarily been adopted because of government pressure, and they have not been and are not nearly as comprehensive as other retailers' policies. So while I'm really not a fan of Wal-Mart, Target, CVS, and the like, dollar stores should be singled out because they do indeed have worse or nonexistent policies in many cases.

And overall, and not just from a contrarian point of view, do you really think that they are good components for neighborhood economic development? Maybe they are... I don't know... but I just don't see it as a positive indicator for East Liberty in this case.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by JVC

at this point it's safe to say this building is going to be the worst thing to happen to east liberty since the 1970's urban renewal


society has lost its mind

I love this.

JVC, congrats, you are now in direct competition with me for the most awesomely bold assertions made in this Pittsburgh forum.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Wiz Khalifa

IMO it's kind of a ridiculous statement, there's nothing stopping them from adding another floor if they want more units.

I'd have to check, but I think they may be maximizing the height allowed under the Zoning Code for that parcel.

It looks to me like the units were likely "lost" when they created a sort of step back or bay immediately above the facades they are keeping. I don't have problem with that because it helps create the street-level illusion that those are actually full historic buildings.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by JVC

you're kidding, right? what about the fact that the proposed building looks like something out of the former soviet union - you don't have a problem with that?

I'm not sure that is true, and in any event I do not have an inherent problem with that--the Soviets sometimes did some cool stuff:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...res-signalled-downfall-Soviet-Union.html

Point being I would judge this project on its merits, whether it has some resemblance to some Soviet projects or not.

every building in the neighborhood except for the church has a cornice including the new construction at east liberty place north and south

Maybe it is just me, but I don't tend to have a good response to modern faux-cornice tack-ons. Those East Liberty Place cornices, for example, look pretty awful to me. Moreover, there are long stretches of those buildings that don't have them:

what about the big uproar about how the new pribanic and pribanic facade design is completely inappropriate for that part of downtown?
it's bad to insert ugly modernism downtown but okay to do it on the most prominent corner in east liberty?

I just don't see those as equivalent. "The Penn" isn't my favorite design ever, but I don't see it being an out-of-scale monstrosity like the proposed Pribanic facade. And as new construction, there is some accommodation required for it being a different era--you can't duplicate the Highland Building these days, and efforts to kinda-sorta do so may well be worse than just doing something contemporary.

and why the heck is the new facade above the historic facades being shown as blue - what does the color blue have to do with anything?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess they thought it looked nice.

From my perspective, I again like the step-back/bay thing because it helps create the illusion of complete historic buildings, and choosing a darker, cooler color for that bay than the rest of the facade on that side will probably will help.

[DKNewYork]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

I'm just happy that there will be: 1) a store called SHINOLA in the new building and 2) great views of the Dollar Tree store across the street

Shinola is a very cool Detroit company that makes watches and bicycles. The watches are great---mid-range in cost ($500ish and up) and kinda industrial. The bikes vouch for the bikes. Great that Pittsburgh is getting a store.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by JVC

the building doesn't even have a front door instead residents are going to be forced to enter the building through a back door in a dark alley that is currently known as antler way

Looks to me like the new design has a door on Penn at the eastern end (past the last of the historic facades). Currently that facade is right up against the brown building on the corner.

[JVC]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Maybe it is just me, but I don't tend to have a good response to modern faux-cornice tack-ons. Those East Liberty Place cornices, for example, look pretty awful to me.

for the record, a cornice is by definition ornamental
any part of a building that isn't structural or necessary for function could be considered fake

the developer should add a "faux" front door to give the building the appearance of normality

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Looks to me like the new design has a door on Penn at the eastern end (past the last of the historic facades).

that's a very impressive door - future architecture students will be studying for decades the way that door gracefully invites people into the building

[miked_6]

I heard Aldi bought the 'old' bottom dollar on penn in Garfield. How awesome would a trader joes do in that location? I also heard a decision is to be announced by the end of the month.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

"Sustainability" initiatives have primarily been adopted because of government pressure, and they have not been and are not nearly as comprehensive as other retailers' policies. So while I'm really not a fan of Wal-Mart, Target, CVS, and the like, dollar stores should be singled out because they do indeed have worse or nonexistent policies in many cases.

Do you really know that Dollar Tree's in particular is worse than Walmart's Target's, etc.? I'm no expert, but off hand it looks pretty similar to me.

do you really think that they are good components for neighborhood economic development? Maybe they are... I don't know... but I just don't see it as a positive indicator for East Liberty in this case.

Sure do! Thriving mixed-income neighborhoods are going to have a range of retail options--it can't and shouldn't be all high-end restaurants and boutiques, because people also want convenient places to buy low-end stuff like bleach and batteries.

So once we understand that Dollar Tree does in fact have a mixed-income customer base, and in fact has specifically been growing its higher-income customer base, I just don't see the development issue.

To the extent I worry about things like this (holding aside the sustainability issues), it is not so much the type of retail as what form they want the store to take. From that perspective drug stores are often worse, because they often want lots of parking, drive-through lanes, and so on. But if you are willing to put your store into the existing, pedestrian-friendly, historic urban fabric--great.

Speaking of which, it turns out that Dollar Tree has literally gone into the former Woolworth's spot. Here is a historic picture of the Woolworth's:

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I000018Ac8LLA5As/s/750/750/1963-East-Liberty.jpg

And here is Rainbow in the same spot:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.461269,-...3m4!1e1!3m2!1s54_ksMHN9pwYbd2VjMA09A!2e0

Which has become the Dollar Tree:

http://www.discovereastliberty.com/dollar-tree-replace-rainbow

Again, I'm definitely not dismissing your sustainability concerns. But as far as the redevelopment of East Liberty is concerned, I don't see a real problem.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by DKNewYork

Shinola is a very cool Detroit company that makes watches and bicycles. The watches are great---mid-range in cost ($500ish and up) and kinda industrial. The bikes vouch for the bikes. Great that Pittsburgh is getting a store.

Yeah, I know shit from Shinola The name just makes me smile given the saying.

But I don't know that Pittsburgh is actually getting a store... just saw the name in the rendering. I wonder how many Shinola stores are located within 50 feet of a Dollar Tree...

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by JVC

for the record, a cornice is by definition ornamental

Right, but the modern ones are often just hollow, cheapo tack-ons. The cool old cornices were often built out of the building with things like brick or terra cotta. By "faux" I just mean they are gesturing at the old ones without actually going to the expense of doing something substantial and nice like the old ones.

that's a very impressive door - future architecture students will be studying for decades the way that door gracefully invites people into the building

Well, that's moving the goalposts. You think every upper-floor apartment building needs a grand entrance? I don't.

[AaronPGH]

Originally Posted by JVC

as opposed to rothschild doyno?

remind me of a jaw-dropping project by those guys please... serious question. Everything I've seen so far is incredibly bland and uninspired.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Do you really know that Dollar Tree's in particular is worse than Walmart's Target's, etc.? I'm no expert, but off hand it looks pretty similar to me.

Yes, they are worse in terms of sustainability initiatives. Wal-Mart, believe it or not, is one of the leaders (in certain areas; recycled packaging content, supply chain standards, packaging/shipping products recycling, solar/renewable energy, transportation fleet efficiency to name some... land-use policies are obviously a big negative). Target and other retailers have also instituted much more comprehensive strategies to reduce waste. The toxics issue is a big negative for dollar stores still -- LOTS of CPSC no-no products line their shelves. My hope is that with higher-income customer patronage will come more scrutiny and therefore enough forced change to destroy the dollar store business model.


Sure do! Thriving mixed-income neighborhoods are going to have a range of retail options--it can't and shouldn't be all high-end restaurants and boutiques, because people also want convenient places to buy low-end stuff like bleach and batteries.

So once we understand that Dollar Tree does in fact have a mixed-income customer base, and in fact has specifically been growing its higher-income customer base, I just don't see the development issue.

To the extent I worry about things like this (holding aside the sustainability issues), it is not so much the type of retail as what form they want the store to take. From that perspective drug stores are often worse, because they often want lots of parking, drive-through lanes, and so on. But if you are willing to put your store into the existing, pedestrian-friendly, historic urban fabric--great.

Speaking of which, it turns out that Dollar Tree has literally gone into the former Woolworth's spot. Here is a historic picture of the Woolworth's:

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I000018Ac8LLA5As/s/750/750/1963-East-Liberty.jpg

And here is Rainbow in the same spot:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.461269,-...3m4!1e1!3m2!1s54_ksMHN9pwYbd2VjMA09A!2e0

Which has become the Dollar Tree:

http://www.discovereastliberty.com/dollar-tree-replace-rainbow

Again, I'm definitely not dismissing your sustainability concerns. But as far as the redevelopment of East Liberty is concerned, I don't see a real problem.

I realize that having all high-end restaurants and boutiques is not realistic, nor favored even. I just think that there are plenty of nearby existing places already to buy low-end stuff like bleach and batteries. I'd just much rather see Pittsburgh develop a "corner bodega" culture in its revitalizing urban neighborhoods like is seen in our big brothers to the east. Dollar stores in large part destroy the chances of that happening in East Liberty, even more so than the Target down the street, due to the very nature of Dollar Tree's convenient location and urban, pedestrian-friendly setup.

And I agree with your points about drug stores often taking up mega amounts of space with parking lots and drive-thru prescription lanes (I have such a problem with that... but I won't get into it) having much greater negative impact on urban fabric.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by AaronPGH

remind me of a jaw-dropping project by those guys please... serious question.

Perkins+Will is a GREAT outfit, in my experience. I'm lucky to have had the chance to work with them in DC at the Navy yards. Excited for Pittsburgh!

I echo what you said about them being a "real architect". They have a resume that no Pittsburgh firm comes close to. It's a sign of good things to come for Pittsburgh.

[AaronPGH]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

I echo what you said about them being a "real architect". They have a resume that no Pittsburgh firm comes close to. It's a sign of good things to come for Pittsburgh.

I really wish we had local firms that could hang with the major leagues of architecture out there. I don't even count Gensler – they are still cookie-cutter. This is one of the biggest shortcomings of our city to me because it creates scars in our neighborhoods that we will have to live with for decades.

I say bring in the outsiders and get our locals scrambling a bit.

[JVC]

Originally Posted by AaronPGH

remind me of a jaw-dropping project by those guys please... serious question. Everything I've seen so far is incredibly bland and uninspired.

this:
http://www.aia.org/practicing/awards/2015/architecture/sant-lespwa/

[JVC]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

You think every upper-floor apartment building needs a grand entrance? I don't.

grand - not necessarily

a front door - absolutey

[AaronPGH]

Originally Posted by JVC

this:
http://www.aia.org/practicing/awards/2015/architecture/sant-lespwa/

That's cute (and a great cause), but not on the level of what I'm talking about.