HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Mountain West


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #8201  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 7:23 PM
bcp's Avatar
bcp bcp is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,143
so...yes, agreed..but it passed, and it had an impact. much better than nothing.

I do really, really wish the $8b campaign-proposal had been passed when BHO had control of the house and senate for two years..we'd have some sweet high-speed rail under construction.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8202  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 7:24 PM
Wizened Variations's Avatar
Wizened Variations Wizened Variations is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,611
Here we go again...II

“But being dependent, every day of the year and for year after year, upon certain politicians for news, the newspaper reporters are obliged to work in harmony with their news sources.”
― Edward Bernays, Propoganda.

Over the last 3 weeks- 02/21/14-03/03/2015 the Denver Post has published an unrelenting series of articles all related directly or indirectly to promoting the expansion of I-70.

A) On 02/21/15, page 19a, in the OPINION section, the editorial “Funding plan for I-70 Risk Free Key two sentences: “For I-70, private sector partners will be responsible for designing, building, financing, operating and maintaining the stretch of highway planned for reconstruction.
In return, the contractor will receive annual performance payments from the state. “

I only will reiterate that there is no such thing as a ‘free lunch’ and, add ‘What criteria will determine “annual performance?”, and ‘How will this be determined over varying economic conditions?’

B) 02/22/15 the Post ran articles starting on the front page “States devise ways to fill gap from federal highway funding” This first article continued on page 2a, where immediately above the continued article, illustrated with now routine graphics, “State turns to toll roads to make up funding gap.”

The intent of both articles was to condition the public into believing that as other states are financing improvements on US (federal) and Interstate (Federal) roads via the accrual of privately financed debt so that is both the new ‘normal’ and ‘good.’ This implication is cleverly nestled in a series of references to other states adding new state taxes.

From “States devise ways to fill gap from federal highway funding”, on page 2a, “Virginia recently scrapped its per-gallon gasoline tax in favor of a new tax on the wholesale price of gas and a higher tax on other retail sales. The state also has turned to public-private partnerships, including a new $925 million express-lane project on Interstate 95 that was financed partly by private investors who have a long-term contract to collect tolls”

Here we see how after discussing in the same article how state highway infrastructural repairs are being underfunded via the gasoline tax, the new normal also includes “public-private partnerships” which if Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Michigan are included is not the new norm.

C) On 02/25/15 the Post, to it’s credit, published on page 21A, OPINION, a questioned article by State Sen. Matt Jones, Louisville, which I quote in full:

Re: “Funding plan for I-70 risk-free,” Feb. 21 editorial.

“How do you know that the headline of your editorial is true? These are secretly negotiated mega-deals, $1.2 billion locked in for 35 years in this case, typically with foreign corporations.

Nothing in law requires them to divulge the terms of the deal before they sign. Even after an agreement is signed, there is no guarantee we will see the terms. The Colorado Department of Transportation (CDOT) follows what’s outlined in an executive order that only requires a “summary of essential terms” be disclosed. Basically, what CDOT wants to tell us.

We saw how that worked with the U.S. 36 deal.

Attorneys general warn us against deals too good to be true, because they typically are bad deals. I would hope the news media would be skeptical of such “free” claims and demand real transparency before it is too late.”

D) On Sunday, 03/01/2015, in huge lettered print “DIA TURNS 20” (Headline is capitalized)

This an extremely interesting article, for multiple reasons:

After beautiful graphics comparing Stapelton and DIA on the front page, the written article in column 4 (and continues on page 12A) leads to:

“Had they not built this airport, Denver would not be growing the way it is in terms of overall economy and great jobs here, and all the businesses that are moving to Denver” (airport CEO Kim Day)

This statement is simply not provable.

Follow the article to page 12A and viola, the entire page is dedicated to developing DIA, starting with the subheading “Big Land, big ideas” which continues on page 13A.

Take a detailed look at what is being proposed as shown in the illustration at the base of page 12A. Tentative current proposals (I am sure there are elephants in the closet) call for 9000 acres to be developed, as stated on page 13A, noise complaints have been reduced (from 84,467 to 4,522), therefore, more land can be developed.

(I am not discussing the brief mention of cost over runs, as that has been discussed elsewhere)

E) Today, 03/03/15, there is a two page article co-anchoring page 1, in capitals “WHO’S MINDING THE STOCK SHOW?”

The key to this article are the first two sentences:

"Denver voters hold the key to more than half of the $856 million needed to kick off an ambitious transformation of the National Western Stock Show complex.

But if residents approve a referendum on decades-long extensions of lodging and car-rental taxes, a big question still is unresolved: Just how much control and ownership will the city get over the sprawling site?"


The graphic on page 6A shows the size of the proposal.


My point is simple: all this future growth is keyed to expanding I-70 east of I-25 as proposed by CDOT.

How various pieces attempt to define the legitimacy of financing I-70 undisclosed private funding mechanisms, how the growth of new enterprise zones at DIA and it’s implied need for better truck connections to I-25, and, how the unspoken assumption that a tax payer subsidized expanded National Western Stock Show all imply need better I-70 (and I-25) connections.

I. Convenience to serve National Western Stock Show Area (Brighton Blvd interchange)

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nation...76c79a74f5fe907:0x686b0c4277804b78?hl=en

http://www.i-70east.com/visualization_BrightonBlvdInterchange_stills.html

II. Improvements to DIA.

The best I could readily find was http://www.i-70east.com/project-map.html which includes Pena Blvd I-70 in the environmental study. I think, however, that DIA would receive the largest benefits from expanding east I-70, primarily by providing extremely good truck connections to existing warehouse districts west of Quebec Street, Colorado Ave, faster connections to the newly expanded I-225, and, above all faster connections to I-25.

I looked harder and found
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_24737851/i-70-remake-at-heart-plan-revive-denvers
dated 12/17/2013, titled ”I-70 remake at heart of plan to revive Denver’s Swansea neighborhood” where I found

“The I-70 proposal — which also calls for adding two lanes in each direction along 12 miles of the highway between Interstate 25 and Tower Road — is one of six redevelopment and infrastructure projects included in the Corridor of Opportunity program that aim to revive Elyria-Swansea and Globeville to the west.”

This aspect of the project is extremely difficult to find information on, but, is, as I suspected.
__________________
Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8203  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 7:33 PM
TakeFive's Avatar
TakeFive TakeFive is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
That was mostly Congress' doing, and at the time it was considered a basically non-controversial bipartisan keeping-the-government-functioning bill.

Congress was hardly marvelous back then, but it wasn't the complete clusterfuck of ineptitude and gridlock that it is now. SAFETEA-LU would not pass today's Congress.
Which strangely is part of my optimism for this Spring's transportation negotiations. At some point they need to demonstrate to the electorate that they can make a POSITIVE contribution.
__________________
Cool... Denver has reached puberty.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8204  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 7:44 PM
The Dirt The Dirt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,215
WV, I have this nagging feeling that you have all of these articles clipped to a wall somewhere with red sting connecting them. I wish you would tone down your conspiracy theory rhetoric when you try to make a point. It's like you're trying to alienate your audience instead of working on convincing anyone.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8205  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 7:45 PM
Wizened Variations's Avatar
Wizened Variations Wizened Variations is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Which strangely is part of my optimism for this Spring's transportation negotiations. At some point they need to demonstrate to the electorate that they can make a POSITIVE contribution.
Nope. No optimism needed for the powerless.
__________________
Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8206  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 8:38 PM
TakeFive's Avatar
TakeFive TakeFive is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
Nope. No optimism needed for the powerless.
Going to your 'Part A' of the above thesis the nub of things is this:

Republicans who want "smaller government" and more private participation (private is ALWAYS better) have been significantly successful. Their campaign of "No new taxes" has been powerful. I don't wish to debate the politics as it gets way too complicated, bizarre and ultimately sleep inducing. It is what it is and it has been waged at both the Federal and State levels.

I-70 is the primary and arguably only (main) east-west corridor for commerce and transportation for most of the state, certainly the large majority of population. It needs a fix badly. CDOT hasn't cared how it was fixed. They've been extremely patient in exploring all the options and being open for discussion. The only realistic alternative to move I-70 east of I-25 to the north would be fine except proponents have yet to step up and write out checks for the funds that would be needed.

All the polls and surveys have shown that voters prefer tolls (and P3's) to raising taxes. Likely why the Metro Mayors support the concept. Democrats have been unwilling to float their own idea for raising revenue - or slashing education funding (as an example) for fear of voter backlash. Understandable.
__________________
Cool... Denver has reached puberty.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8207  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 9:03 PM
bobg bobg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventwenty View Post
And time to speculate whether or not the Ski Train comes back for good.



In an attempt to see what else the Colorado Rail Passenger Association has said on the matter, I went to their website. It's down and 404'd. But here's the website's last update--from Dec 2014--courtesy of the Wayback Machine. I'll have to poke around a bit on Wayback to see what the group has said about Amtrak service.
Well the fact the second day sold out already is a good sign for that speculation. I wonder what Amtrak's break even is, I cannot imagine demand for $75 round trip is sustainable every weekend in the winter (although I cannot remember how much it used to cost in '09).

Colorado Rail Passenger Association does seem to be updating their Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ColoRail They seem to still be at it as far as advocating for better Amtrak service goes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8208  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 9:09 PM
EngiNerd's Avatar
EngiNerd EngiNerd is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Englewood, CO
Posts: 2,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobg View Post
FYI they added a second ski train on 3/15 since the one on 3/14 sold out so quickly.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_276313...nter-park-ski-train-trip?source=infinite
The second train sold out in 4 hours!
__________________
"The engineer is the key figure in the material progress of the world. It is his engineering that makes a reality of the potential value of science by translating scientific knowledge into tools, resources, energy and labor to bring them into the service of man. To make contributions of this kind the engineer requires the imagination to visualize the need of society and to appreciate what is possible as well as the technological and broad social age understanding to bring his vision to reality."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8209  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 10:18 PM
seventwenty's Avatar
seventwenty seventwenty is offline
I took a bus pic, CIRRUS
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Soon to be banned
Posts: 1,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobg View Post
Well the fact the second day sold out already is a good sign for that speculation. I wonder what Amtrak's break even is, I cannot imagine demand for $75 round trip is sustainable every weekend in the winter (although I cannot remember how much it used to cost in '09).

Colorado Rail Passenger Association does seem to be updating their Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ColoRail They seem to still be at it as far as advocating for better Amtrak service goes.
Looks like their page is back. Interesting tidbit from their current newsletter:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoRail
Spearheaded by Amtrak Conductor and ColoRail Member Brad Swarzwelter, Amtrak has agreed to consider operating a special train from
Denver to the Seven Villages of Winter Park Resort in late March. This would be a full scale demonstration run of the newly minted “Winter Park Express” to accommodate skiers desiring comfortable and hassle free travel day for a day at the resort.

The demo would allow Amtrak to work out any kinks in the service. However, the train requires approval of the host railroad, the Union Pacific Railroad, which owns the route. This approval has not been received as of press time for the ColoRail Passenger, which was held for this news, but ColoRail and other civic leaders are hoping the UP will help resume this historic service.

As proposed, the Winter Park Express would depart from and return to Denver Union Station. The demonstration in March of 2015 would herald the return of weekly ski train service to Winter Park in 2016. The service would run from January through March with three or four trips a week. Amtrak would charge a competitive price for roundtrip tickets designed to fill the six plus Superliner car train and attract skiers who want to avoid the drive up I-70 over the pass and back. [Emphasis mine. Original emphasis removed]
For some reason, Amtrak's not letting me book Denver-Winter Park, outside of the Ski Train dates that is. So let's see how much it costs go to Granby and back on March 20th:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amtrak
Your Itinerary:

Friday, March 20, 2015 - Denver to Granby
8:05 am - 10:37 am - 2 hr, 32 min
5 California Zephyr
1 Reserved Coach Seat - VALUE - 1 Adult - $36.00


Friday, March 20, 2015 - Granby to Denver
3:12 pm - 6:38 pm - 3 hr, 26 min
6 California Zephyr
1 Reserved Coach Seat - VALUE- 1 Adult - $29.00
1 Reserved Coach Seat

Total $65.00
Damn, adjust the times slightly for Winter Park, and the Zephyr's almost a ski train.

So, for the March 14th weekend, Amtrak sold out 2 trains for 900 (950?) passengers at $75 round trip, or $67,500 ($71,250?). That's before the $15 voucher, which could possibly reduce revenue by $13,500 ($14,250?) to $54,000 ($57,000?). In comparison, if Amtrak charged the $65 roundtrip price I stated above to those same 900 (950?) passengers, they'd generate $58,500 ($61,750?).

To put the Ski Train in a larger context, the California Zephyr, in 2013, generated $55,700,000 in revenue. The train cost $129,900,000 to operate, which means 42.88% of all costs were recovered. Granted 2013 was the year the tracks washed out, but 2013's cost recovery was in line with 2012 (same link) and 2010. I bring up the cost recovery question solely to address the issue of whether or not it's financially prudent to keep promoting the Ski Train as a stand alone operation.

Who knows, maybe Amtrak brings back the defunct Pioneer Route (Denver-Seattle); routes it via Salt Lake (and thus Winter Park), Ogden, Boise, and Portland; and times the Pioneer and Zephyr trains to make a makeshift Ski Train. Amtrak's studied such a proposal, but I highly doubt the Pioneer comes back.
__________________
The happy & obtuse bro.

"Of course you're right." Cirrus

Last edited by seventwenty; Mar 3, 2015 at 10:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8210  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 10:43 PM
Denver Dweller Denver Dweller is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 828
Higher tolls approved for I-25 express lanes, U.S. 36 decision postponed

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8211  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 11:00 PM
mr1138 mr1138 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,160
The only problem with the Zephyr being a ski train is that the Amtrak station isn't actually at the ski resort, but rather in Frasier which is about 5 miles further down the road. Granted, there is really good free shuttle service to the base area through the town of Winter Park and out to Frasier, but it wouldn't exactly be easy or convenient. If you were planning a multi-day vacation up there and wanted to cab it to your accommodations before hitting the slopes, that would be easily doable.

And if there was enough demand, I suppose there's no reason they couldn't start planning stops at the base area as well since the ski train obviously let passengers on and off there. But I suppose we should wait and see about the Ski Train itself first!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8212  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 11:11 PM
EngiNerd's Avatar
EngiNerd EngiNerd is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Englewood, CO
Posts: 2,003
No, the biggest problem for the ski train for actual skiers, is that if you go up and back the same day you only get, at max with no stops for lunch, 3 hrs of skiing in.
__________________
"The engineer is the key figure in the material progress of the world. It is his engineering that makes a reality of the potential value of science by translating scientific knowledge into tools, resources, energy and labor to bring them into the service of man. To make contributions of this kind the engineer requires the imagination to visualize the need of society and to appreciate what is possible as well as the technological and broad social age understanding to bring his vision to reality."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8213  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 11:42 PM
Wizened Variations's Avatar
Wizened Variations Wizened Variations is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Going to your 'Part A' of the above thesis the nub of things is this:

Republicans who want "smaller government" and more private participation (private is ALWAYS better) have been significantly successful. Their campaign of "No new taxes" has been powerful. I don't wish to debate the politics as it gets way too complicated, bizarre and ultimately sleep inducing. It is what it is and it has been waged at both the Federal and State levels.

I-70 is the primary and arguably only (main) east-west corridor for commerce and transportation for most of the state, certainly the large majority of population. It needs a fix badly. CDOT hasn't cared how it was fixed. They've been extremely patient in exploring all the options and being open for discussion. The only realistic alternative to move I-70 east of I-25 to the north would be fine except proponents have yet to step up and write out checks for the funds that would be needed.

All the polls and surveys have shown that voters prefer tolls (and P3's) to raising taxes. Likely why the Metro Mayors support the concept. Democrats have been unwilling to float their own idea for raising revenue - or slashing education funding (as an example) for fear of voter backlash. Understandable.
This not a Republican or a Democrat issue at the state level, but a power issue, as it always has been.

You have long term players that either have money, or represent money who take years to put plans together that involve the strategic purchase of land and the assembly of informal and informal consortiums that provide a (reasonably) united front for this money.

In terms of protecting their investment, the political monies and the calling in favors that is politics, these consortiums do not care one iota about whether one party or the other is in power.

We are seeing the final phases of a financial chess game that can make untold billions of dollars over the next decade through the increase in value of their investments, and, the eventual tax subsidies that will assist any capital improvements.

The Democrat and Republican split on this issue at the State level is absolutely meaningless- no insult to the required political theater that even the honest politicians must endure.

Bottom line: they get what they pay for.
__________________
Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Mar 4, 2015 at 12:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8214  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 11:49 PM
Wizened Variations's Avatar
Wizened Variations Wizened Variations is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post
WV, I have this nagging feeling that you have all of these articles clipped to a wall somewhere with red sting connecting them. I wish you would tone down your conspiracy theory rhetoric when you try to make a point. It's like you're trying to alienate your audience instead of working on convincing anyone.
You are either speaking foolishly, or you desire brownie points for cheap shots- which is cool as we all have to work for a living.

I saw the 'movie'- and looked at some of his mathematics (I had to read summaries because I got lost trying to follow "Real algebriac manifolds")

You are too ambitious and smart not to see the dynamics of money and power, so I felt free to call you on it. If you were a dumb groupie I would dismiss the comment, but, your inference to "A Beautiful Mind" revealed your hand.
__________________
Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8215  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 11:53 PM
bobg bobg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 474
I have used the Zephyr for multi-day trips to Winter Park and for that it works out okay.

However, based on my experience I would not use the Zephyr for a day trip. The schedule is tight, the transfer options are Valley taxi which is run by a bunch of hippies who sometimes struggle with the concept of time, and the bus service in Winter Park is your typical ski resort free bus when it comes to reliability. However, the even bigger problem is the Zephyr is rarely on time because it's a long distance amtrak route.

Now as far as the Zephyr goes financially the route actually does fairly well ridership wise in CO as people love it for the scenery, and many fly out here just to take it for some segments through our state. The segment between Denver and Illinois, and the segment between SLC and Reno are not as much in demand, and I am betting those are bigger drains on it's fiscal health. So using the Zephyr as a ski train you are basically taking up seats on a segment of a long distance route that already has greater demand than some other segments.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8216  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2015, 12:20 AM
seventwenty's Avatar
seventwenty seventwenty is offline
I took a bus pic, CIRRUS
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Soon to be banned
Posts: 1,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
You are either speaking foolishly, or you desire brownie points for cheap shots- which is cool as we all have to work for a living.

I saw the 'movie'- and looked at some of his mathematics (I had to read summaries because I got lost trying to follow "Real algebriac manifolds")

You are too ambitious and smart not to see the dynamics of money and power, so I felt free to call you on it. If you were a dumb groupie I would dismiss the comment, but, your inference to "A Beautiful Mind" revealed your hand.
See The Dirt, that is the difference between me and you. You pop cultural references to the Nash Equilibrium endpoint in a prisoner's dilemma game mean you have to discuss things with Wizened. I, on the other hand, claim I am obtuse and a bro. Those qualifiers are sufficiently similar to dumb and groupie. As such, Wizened must now dismiss and probably ignore me.
__________________
The happy & obtuse bro.

"Of course you're right." Cirrus
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8217  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2015, 12:49 AM
seventwenty's Avatar
seventwenty seventwenty is offline
I took a bus pic, CIRRUS
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Soon to be banned
Posts: 1,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobg View Post
I have used the Zephyr for multi-day trips to Winter Park and for that it works out okay.

However, based on my experience I would not use the Zephyr for a day trip. The schedule is tight, the transfer options are Valley taxi which is run by a bunch of hippies who sometimes struggle with the concept of time, and the bus service in Winter Park is your typical ski resort free bus when it comes to reliability. However, the even bigger problem is the Zephyr is rarely on time because it's a long distance amtrak route.

Now as far as the Zephyr goes financially the route actually does fairly well ridership wise in CO as people love it for the scenery, and many fly out here just to take it for some segments through our state. The segment between Denver and Illinois, and the segment between SLC and Reno are not as much in demand, and I am betting those are bigger drains on it's fiscal health. So using the Zephyr as a ski train you are basically taking up seats on a segment of a long distance route that already has greater demand than some other segments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EngiNerd View Post
No, the biggest problem for the ski train for actual skiers, is that if you go up and back the same day you only get, at max with no stops for lunch, 3 hrs of skiing in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr1138 View Post
The only problem with the Zephyr being a ski train is that the Amtrak station isn't actually at the ski resort, but rather in Frasier which is about 5 miles further down the road. Granted, there is really good free shuttle service to the base area through the town of Winter Park and out to Frasier, but it wouldn't exactly be easy or convenient. If you were planning a multi-day vacation up there and wanted to cab it to your accommodations before hitting the slopes, that would be easily doable.

And if there was enough demand, I suppose there's no reason they couldn't start planning stops at the base area as well since the ski train obviously let passengers on and off there. But I suppose we should wait and see about the Ski Train itself first!

Thanks for the input all. Here's some more passenger demand data from Amtrak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amtrak 2014 Colorado boardings
City Boardings + Alightings
Denver 111,426
Fort Morgan 3,551
Glenwood Springs 34,489
Granby 3,347
Grand Junction 29,672
La Junta 6,918
Lamar 1,812
Trinidad 4,592
Winter Park-Fraser 6,911
Total Colorado Station Usage: 202,718
(up 2.3% from FY13)
And Utah, too.

Quote:
City Boardings + Alightings
Green River 2,770
Helper 2,034
Provo 5,299
Salt Lake City 41,367
Total Utah Station Usage: 51,470
(down 6.9% from FY13)
__________________
The happy & obtuse bro.

"Of course you're right." Cirrus
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8218  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2015, 1:23 AM
seventwenty's Avatar
seventwenty seventwenty is offline
I took a bus pic, CIRRUS
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Soon to be banned
Posts: 1,697
That being said... Here's what the 2009 Ski Train would have looked like, assuming it all came together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denver Post in Dec. 2009
The company attempting to revive a Denver-to-Winter Park ski train pulled the plug on the venture Monday and said all customers who had reserved seats for the upcoming season will get refunds.

. . .

Iowa Pacific claimed in court it had what amounted to a contract with Amtrak to operate the ski train with Amtrak crews from Dec. 27 to late March.

. . .

Iowa Pacific said as many as 13,000 passengers had reserved seats for this season's ski train runs.
So 13,000 people had tickets. The Denver Post articles regarding the never-started 2009 Ski Train season didn't have any information about schedules or fares. So I'll look elsewhere for those. Luckily, the Wayback Machine helped me find this information, albeit for the 2008 Ski Train. Let's take a look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2008 Ski Train Schedule
[Schedule:]

The Ski Train will begin its 68th season with special holiday trips on December 27, 28, 29 and 30, 2007. Day trips will be available Saturdays and Sundays from January 5 through March 30, 2008, Fridays beginning February 1, 2008 and Thursdays beginning March 6, 2008.

Depart Denver: 7:15 AM . . . Arrive Winter Park: 9:30 AM
Depart Winter Park: 4:15 PM Arrive Denver: 6:30 PM


. . .

Fares:
All tickets are same-day, round-trip, non-refundable, and non-exchangeable. If you wish to return on a different day, an additional ticket is required. Most trips sell out in advance, so reservations are strongly recommended. Check our Availability page for more information.

Coach
$49 Per person.
$44 For groups of 12 or more on any trip.
$44 For Seniors (62+) and children (ages 3 to 12) when traveling with an adult. Children 2 and under do not require a coach ticket when they will be seated on their parents lap.

Club
$74 Per person.
$74 Group rate
Let's make a few more assumptions, in addition to the assumption that the 2009 schedule and fares were identical to 2008. Let's assume thrice weekly service for 14 weeks (approx late December to late March), and let's assume those 13,000 tickets from 2009 were sold at either $50 or $75. That means the 2009 Ski Train would have made a minimum of $27,300,000 (14 weeks x 3 weekly trips x $50 x 13,000 passengers) and a maximum of $40,950,000 (14 weeks x 3 weekly trips x $75 x 13,000 passengers). And yet Anschutz, when he owned it, lost money on it.

Now let's assume those 13,000 trips were evenly spaced, i.e. 13,000 passengers/[14 weeks x 3 weekly trips]. If true, there were 309 passenger reservations per train.
__________________
The happy & obtuse bro.

"Of course you're right." Cirrus
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8219  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2015, 1:37 AM
seventwenty's Avatar
seventwenty seventwenty is offline
I took a bus pic, CIRRUS
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Soon to be banned
Posts: 1,697
Also, since I hereby decree that this forum abides by Connect4 rules, my 4 consecutive posts mean I win.
__________________
The happy & obtuse bro.

"Of course you're right." Cirrus
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8220  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2015, 2:14 AM
Wizened Variations's Avatar
Wizened Variations Wizened Variations is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,611
US 36 toll rates

New U.S. 36 toll lanes: Trip from Broomfield to Denver could cost nearly $14
Public input on final price point will be closely considered, CDOT spokeswoman says
By Alex Burness and Mitchell Byars
Staff Writers

From the Daily Camera, 02/27/15

“When the first phase of the U.S. 36 Express Lanes opens in midsummer, drivers going at peak travel times from Interlocken to Denver will be charged $7.75 with an Express Toll pass, but $13.83 without one.

Afternoon drivers traveling at peak travel times from Denver to Interlocken will be charged $6.85 with a pass, compared to $12.53 without one.

CDOT has said that those without passes are charged more on toll roads because it costs more to process license plate tolls administratively.”

See

https://www.codot.gov/projects/us36eis/d...apter-2_alternatives-considered.pdf/view

************

If I remember correctly, the Boulder Turnpike (déjà vu) US 36 project will involve adding at least 3 lanes in each direction (a minimum of 5 lanes of traffic traveling i including two “BRT lanes). At “BRT” stops, the next width will be a minimum of 10 lanes (3 +2 +2 +3)- 3 lanes in each direction that are not toll lanes, and 4 lines in the center, two in each direction, for a combined BRT and toll road.

So, I did a bit of thinking, and, wondered- assuming that the US economy not crater, that densification would continue to occur, and, that cars would remain affordable via leasing (or another renting system) or purchase.

A simple scenario would be double the vehicles per day by 20xx. That would mean that if each side of US 36 remained at two lanes, that twice the number of vehicles would create twice the average density per each of the two lanes. However, this average is not really kosher because the Boulder Turnpike, like most urban highways, has traffic peaks.

These traffic peaks, have different traffic density and speed characteristics which affect slowdowns, stoppages, the impact of severe weather, and, repair.

If a toll option exists, then, the percentage of people who wish to use such lanes increases differently than simple measurements like per cars per hour. Factors such as choices about time of trip versus cost directly affect traffic density*.

To go back to the simplest case, if you double the number of lanes and merely double the total traffic density, and, if three lanes are toll free, then the current traffic density, “D” per lane would exist on one of each of the two toll lanes.

Given “D” then consider rush hour peak traffic characteristics, which are NOT necessarily linearly related to increases in traffic density.

Traffic which is totally gridlocked in a situation today on two lanes might move at 3 or 5 mph on all 5 lanes due to more people being willing to pay a toll to get increase their average speed.**

Returning to “$7.75 with an Express Toll pass, but $13.83 without one”

Consider that about 25 of the 29 miles between Boulder and Denver will have the toll road system. At $7.75 (with express pass) that works out to $.31/mile and without a pass, about $.54/mile for travel one way these 25 miles. A round trip would double that price- to $15.50 with a pass, and, $27.66 without, for the 50 mile drive. If one uses the current IRS deduction rate for cars/mile, $.56 (which is low ball for any newer vehicle), then, these 50 miles would cost a driver an $.56/mile x 50 miles or $28.00. Adding these together, a two way drive along these 25 miles with a base would cost $43.50/day with pass, and, $66.32 using the toll option the full length.

This provides a very simple baseline, and, excludes “Black Swan” occurrences where traffic either fails to grow fast enough to provide funds to cover constant (or increasing) operating expenses, or where traffic grows far faster than projected and infrastructural repair costs are forced to grow faster than revenue (wear is not linear).

All written into an ironclad contract backstopped by the Colorado taxpayer……


* Factors such as gaining free passage to multiple riders also affects time.

**This lack of separate of “BRT” lanes from toll lane traffic means that variations in traffic per hour by POVs and trucks directly affect the average speed of BRT buses. This is the reason the Boulder “BRT” is not a true ‘bus rapid transit.’
__________________
Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Mar 4, 2015 at 2:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Mountain West
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:08 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.