The Great Canadian Skyline Thread!

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

westboro is definitely spacious feeling. i was surprised when people in ottawa would unhesitatingly class it as an interesting urban neighborhood. it's gappy, has parking lots and suburban-styled stores, and the residential density is not such that the sidewalks are particularly full.

Ya, that's why I said "not many Ottawans would classify the area as suburban". In Ottawa's cultural classifications of the city, the definition of 'suburban' is somewhat stricter than you'd expect. I've heard Ottawans try to insist that places like Alta Vista and the Brittania area are urban

Kingston has this to an extent as well, the Calvin Park & Polson Park neighbourhoods (area bound by Bath, Sir John A, Johnson, and the Little Cataraqui Creek), is often thought of as 'urban' when they really aren't in any way.

[eemy]

This article from the Ottawa Business Journal provides some insight into the issue of calculating and analyzing Ottawa's office inventory. It was written in 2011, and doesn't really provide hard numbers, but it seems that the actual office supply is more than 20 million sqft larger than you would find in most real estate firms' market reports due to the enormous shadow supply (owner-occupied buildings), and the omission of supply in Gatineau.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Minto Metropole is not in the suburbs. It's in the pre-war inner city, although definitely outside downtown. Based on this, I assume you counted inner-city-but-not-downtown towers as part of that suburban total of approx 243?

When I say suburban, I mean everything outside of the mostly-contiguous skyline core. I'm not going to spend time making any maps, as I already spent a lot of time gathering the data originally, but I pretty much considered everything in Ottawa bounded by Bronson and Gilmoure on the West side of the Rideau, everything between the Rideau Nelson Street on the Easter side, and in Gatineau everything between Rue Frontenac and the River. Basically anything the wasn't separated by more than 5 blocks with one or less highrises in it, unless it's a cluster separated by a river/5 blocks or less, such as Mission, Gatineau, and Edmonton's south skyline.

I did the same in Calgary, the entire SAIT, U of C, Westbrook, Foothills, and most others are in prewar suburban areas.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

^ You'd have a hard time finding an Ottawan who would classify the heart of Westboro as 'suburban'.

Ottawans seem rather anti-urban (at least in the West and South) going by the shear number of 'stop development' posters and such forth. People going crazy about a 12 floor building being out of scale a half a block from a 10 floor building is another example. Going by what locals say is iffy anyway, you'd get areas in the city of Hamilton that try to weasel out of it, and some Thunder Bayers seem to see their downtown as the real downtown and dismiss the other one. Locals are rarely an unbiased source.

Originally Posted by niwell

It's at the edge of pre-war, but the area was definitely established by the 1940s. In the second link you posted you can see houses that likely range from the 1920s to the 1960s. This style of development was common at the edges of some cities at the time, things filled in very slowly as houses were owner built as opposed to speculative development.

That's always confused me. Growing up in Hamilton development periods were always clearly demarcated with the vast majority of houses being of one age on a street. In TBay you get a it of variation, but still mostly the same (with the occasional house that looks way older than everything yet also designed to be in a way bigger city). Then Ottawa it's just a higgledy-piggledy mess of things, even in some of the newer suburbs where a block or two was developped as very low density exurban before the suburban subdivisions showed up and surrounded them.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Beedok

That's always confused me. Growing up in Hamilton development periods were always clearly demarcated with the vast majority of houses being of one age on a street. In TBay you get a it of variation, but still mostly the same (with the occasional house that looks way older than everything yet also designed to be in a way bigger city). Then Ottawa it's just a higgledy-piggledy mess of things, even in some of the newer suburbs where a block or two was developped as very low density exurban before the suburban subdivisions showed up and surrounded them.

Hamilton is an interesting case. For whatever reason, the city has a disproportionately high percentage of speculatively built housing compared to pretty much everywhere else in Ontario. That's why you get entire blocks of the same (more or less) design. Toronto has an occasional block long identical row but they are few and far between. Lots more owner built housing, just like Ottawa. In this respect Hamilton's development pattern is more similar to older American cities.

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

I did the same in Calgary, the entire SAIT, U of C, Westbrook, Foothills, and most others are in prewar suburban areas.

This is totally nit-picky and completely irrelevant, but aside from SAIT none of those areas are pre-war (unless I'm misunderstanding). There may have been notional streets on a land subdivision map, but nothing was actually there. An analogous area in Ottawa would be something like this http://goo.gl/maps/ceZkU
Yeah there's a street grid and surveyed lots from the 20s but it didn't actually exist on the ground - it was simply built out in the 50s.

[Brizzy82]

couple different Winnipeg angles




Winnipeg Free Press


Red River College


92citifm.ca

[cyeg66]

^Really like that 2nd 'Peg shot (with the exception of all those poles in the foreground). Gives the core a beefy look from afar.

[Razor]

Yes..Some great Winnipeg shots..I could only imagine how Winnipeg would look like with more modern towers sprinkled in with those older ones..Great bones in that city. I don't know why, but I keep thinking that through pics, Winnipeg belongs on the Great Lakes..Just my own stereotype and misguided perception of what of a great Lakes city should look like I guess...

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

^ You'd have a hard time finding an Ottawan who would classify the heart of Westboro as 'suburban'.

Westboro is definitively urban. It reminds me of Ahunsic - Cartier Ville in Montreal, which nobody would ever call suburban. I find the urban - suburban split a little silly... What about transition zones? By some posters' definition, St Leonard would be suburban, yet, it sees more hustle and bustle than the downtowns of Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton. I do realize that due to growth dynamics, western cities have a quasi immediate transition to suburbia, but eastern cities aren't built the same way. Slow growth has meant the development of buffer zones which kind of bridge the gap, and slowly and organically become more urban as time goes by.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

Westboro is definitively urban. It reminds me of Ahunsic - Cartier Ville in Montreal, which nobody would ever call suburban. I find the urban - suburban split a little silly... What about transition zones? By some posters' definition, St Leonard would be suburban, yet, it sees more hustle and bustle than the downtowns of Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton. I do realize that due to growth dynamics, western cities have a quasi immediate transition to suburbia, but eastern cities aren't built the same way. Slow growth has meant the development of buffer zones which kind of bridge the gap, and slowly and organically become more urban as time goes by.

I would.

[le calmar]

Nah that's not surburban, except maybe the westernmost area near St-Laurent where SFH are more prevalent.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

I would.

But you probably don't

[Razor]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

Westboro is definitively urban. It reminds me of Ahunsic - Cartier Ville in Montreal, which nobody would ever call suburban. I find the urban - suburban split a little silly... What about transition zones? By some posters' definition, St Leonard would be suburban, yet, it sees more hustle and bustle than the downtowns of Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton. I do realize that due to growth dynamics, western cities have a quasi immediate transition to suburbia, but eastern cities aren't built the same way. Slow growth has meant the development of buffer zones which kind of bridge the gap, and slowly and organically become more urban as time goes by.

Yup totally agree..Westboro is an inner city Urban neighbourhood which grew organically..I would classify The Preston strip, and Somerset/Booth the same way..Transitional/buffer zones" as you called them are a good description.Older Canadian cities regardless of their size are more apt to have these older established inner city buffer neighbourhoods.Not DT, but you could almost smell dt when you are in one of these neighbourhoods.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by niwell

This is totally nit-picky and completely irrelevant, but aside from SAIT none of those areas are pre-war (unless I'm misunderstanding). There may have been notional streets on a land subdivision map, but nothing was actually there. An analogous area in Ottawa would be something like this http://goo.gl/maps/ceZkU
Yeah there's a street grid and surveyed lots from the 20s but it didn't actually exist on the ground - it was simply built out in the 50s.

Oh, I thought prewar was like before/during WWII, not WWI. Putting things that early really gives an unfair advantage to older cities, even though the style of development was the same up until the 40s (after the 2nd world war). I do understand though, sorry for the mistake.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

But you probably don't

I do.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Oh, I thought prewar was like before/during WWII, not WWI. Putting things that early really gives an unfair advantage to older cities, even though the style of development was the same up until the 40s (after the 2nd world war). I do understand though, sorry for the mistake.

No it is WWII. None of those Calgary neighbourhoods had anything built until the mid 1940s at the very earliest. As I said they may have been subdivided and shown up on road maps, but most cities had huge tracts of subdivided land that were never built upon. The only real way to tell the extent of the built up area is through fire insurance plans that show the footprint of buildings.

EDIT: Here's an aerial of the Foothills / U of C area from 1950 showing how undeveloped it was http://contentdm.ucalgary.ca/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/airphotos2&CISOPTR=51082

And the area to the east of westbrook - this was brand new at the time it looks: http://contentdm.ucalgary.ca/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/airphotos2&CISOPTR=51084

[drawarc]

Originally Posted by Brizzy82

couple different Winnipeg angles




Winnipeg Free Press


Red River College


92citifm.ca

Nice Winnipeg pics, especially the first photo.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

Westboro is definitively urban. It reminds me of Ahunsic - Cartier Ville in Montreal, which nobody would ever call suburban. I find the urban - suburban split a little silly... What about transition zones? By some posters' definition, St Leonard would be suburban, yet, it sees more hustle and bustle than the downtowns of Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton. I do realize that due to growth dynamics, western cities have a quasi immediate transition to suburbia, but eastern cities aren't built the same way. Slow growth has meant the development of buffer zones which kind of bridge the gap, and slowly and organically become more urban as time goes by.

Having walked around Westboro, it feels rather suburban, at least that far west. There's one walkable thoroughfare, but go off that and you're looking at a half an hour walk to the next vaguely commercial street (and Carling isn't urban in the slightest).

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by niwell

No it is WWII. None of those Calgary neighbourhoods had anything built until the mid 1940s at the very earliest. As I said they may have been subdivided and shown up on road maps, but most cities had huge tracts of subdivided land that were never built upon. The only real way to tell the extent of the built up area is through fire insurance plans that show the footprint of buildings.

EDIT: Here's an aerial of the Foothills / U of C area from 1950 showing how undeveloped it was http://contentdm.ucalgary.ca/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/airphotos2&CISOPTR=51082

And the area to the east of westbrook - this was brand new at the time it looks: http://contentdm.ucalgary.ca/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/airphotos2&CISOPTR=51084

Ohhh, I see. Okay, well regardless of any of this, by suburban I clearly meant anything not contiguously connected to the skyline core.

[Razor]

again For Ottawa...Main street, The Glebe (Bank street old Ottawa south), and even Montreal road in Vanier come to mind as other inner city buffer semi-urban neighborhoods. Main street is iffy though..Preston, and Richmond road going through Westboro for sure.