DENVER | Transportation Thread

[denconyny]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

I wonder if DIA has taken into account the reduction in possible amount of people parking due to the new East rail line?

DENCONYNY: It's not a parking lot, its a garage. Will pretty much exactly match the other garage modules on site. There is also quite a bit of site work there because of the vehicle bridges and huge slope changes, a good chunk of that $46mil is in the site work.

EDIT: That design still would have had the garage, the hotel would have been just to the east of the garage. You can also get a good visual from that image of all of the grade changes that have to be dealt with at this garage.

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_7989262

Hey.... that's the image that I googled around for....... and it is the same area/site, yes?

And okay.... thanks for the nuances here.

Anyways, $46M still seems to be an awful lot. At least if those who are actually doing all the labor there get paid well.... then I think that it'll be okay. However, if $$$$$ are slipping around elsewhere.....?

[EngiNerd]

You can see the garage just to the left of the hotel in that pic, so regardless if the hotel were built in that location or not, the 8th parking garage still would have been built.

On the low dollar side, with little earthwork or ornamentation, a parking garage is roughly $15,000 per parking space. Go below grade and that number doubles. So even on the low side this garage would not be less than about $30 million, and $46mil seems about right. An 1,800 car garage is very large, there aren't many in Colorado that size, let along with 8 garages that size side by side.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by denconyny

$46M for a parking lot for less that 2000 cars? WOW? I think that that's rather excessive

$46M / 2000 = $23,000 per space.

Actually that's below average for big cities nationally. It is on the upper end for Denver, though. THIS TABLE shows the average cost of parking garages in various US cities. Among the cities surveyed, above ground parking garages costs $24k/space on average, and $34k/space for underground. Denver alone is the 2nd cheapest market (among those surveyed), and averages comparatively affordable $18k/space for above ground garages, and $26k/space for below ground.

Granted, that table has a lot of very large coastal cities. Denver is probably not so far below the average compared to peer cities.

But the point is, parking is expensive.

[denconyny]

Originally Posted by bobg

When I read that I was thinking that was a pretty lowball estimate actually. Parking garages aren't cheap, and about a decade ago the rule of thumb just to build was about 25k per spot. This comes in just over that 25k even with inflation over the past decade and known soil issues at DIA.

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

You can see the garage just to the left of the hotel in that pic, so regardless if the hotel were built in that location or not, the 8th parking garage still would have been built.

On the low dollar side, with little earthwork or ornamentation, a parking garage is roughly $15,000 per parking space. Go below grade and that number doubles. So even on the low side this garage would not be less than about $30 million, and $46mil seems about right. An 1,800 car garage is very large, there aren't many in Colorado that size, let along with 8 garages that size side by side.

Originally Posted by Cirrus

$46M / 2000 = $23,000 per space.

Actually that's below average for big cities nationally. It is on the upper end for Denver, though. THIS TABLE shows the average cost of parking garages in various US cities. Among the cities surveyed, above ground parking garages costs $24k/space on average, and $34k/space for underground. Denver alone is the 2nd cheapest market (among those surveyed), and averages comparatively affordable $18k/space for above ground garages, and $26k/space for below ground.

Granted, that table has a lot of very large coastal cities. Denver is probably not so far below the average compared to peer cities.

But the point is, parking is expensive.

All right.... all right..... so I learn something new today.......

And yes, it does seem that

Originally Posted by Cirrus

parking is expensive.

I got it......

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

I wonder if DIA has taken into account the reduction in possible amount of people parking (especially in the expensive garages) due to the new East rail line?

EDIT: That design still would have had the garage, the hotel would have been just to the east of the garage. You can also get a good visual from that image of all of the grade changes that have to be dealt with at this garage.

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_7989262

I'm sure I saw that in passing but had forgotten about that layout. What quickly jumps out for me is how much more sense the hotel makes in its present location. There's better accessibility between hotel and terminal and having it at the end of the train station should work well also. Fortunately I also like how it is turning out.

[Denver Dweller]

http://www.denverpost.com/News/ci_274692...anced-by-private-company?source=infinite

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Denver Dweller

http://www.denverpost.com/News/ci_274692...anced-by-private-company?source=infinite

Bringing in a private firm could also help bridge a $90 million funding gap for the project, said officials.

Hahaha, somebody left a zero off.

So they're anticipating a P3 similar to that being used for highway 36. It only makes good sense. So the decision will be made on Feb. 19th and then a RFP goes out within 30 days?

[Zmapper]

RTD's Operations and Customer Service Committee monthly agenda packet is exceptionally full this month: http://rtd.iqm2.com/Citizens/FileOpen.aspx?Type=1&ID=2220&Inline=True

Included are new bus purchases, May 2015 service changes, the US 36 service plan, ridership statistics, and the ADA passup records.

[seventwenty]

Nvm. Found the answer in Zmapper's update.

Pg 120 of Zmapper's update has the Staff Recommendation Summary for RTD's revised fare structure:



Other things:

Originally Posted by Page 116

Staff Recommendation
Pay per Boarding with a 2x Day Pass:
[A.] Fare Simplification
[1] Make Day Passes available on the bus; continue selling Day Passes from Ticket Vending Machines at rail stations
[2] Reduce price of the Day Pass to 2x the cash fare and eliminate transfers
[3] Eliminate Rail zones
[4] Eliminate Distance Based Fares on Bus Routes; price based on Service Type (Local, Express, Regional)

(ordering mine)

Originally Posted by Pg 118

Staff Recommendation Details
• Local, Express, and Regional monthly passes priced at 40 boardings
• 25¢ discount on single boardings when paying with stored value (smart card)
• Federally mandated half-fare discount required for seniors 65+, Medicare recipients and persons with disabilities during the off-peak period (Continue to extend discount to all time periods and to students ages 6-19; Staff recommendation extends the discount to the day pass; Continue to apply the half fare discount to monthly passes)
• Continue to price Access-a-Ride fares at twice the comparable fixed route fare

Originally Posted by pg 119

Staff Recommendation Service and Financial Impacts
• Revenue neutral $119.3 million in fare revenue = approximately 8-10% reduction in service hours
(Would require slightly more cuts than 2012 changes)
• Staff recommendation achieves SBP fare revenue target of $131.3 million = No service cuts as a result of fare revenue shortfalls
(Staff recommendation forecast to generate $133.1 million in fare revenue in 2016)

I'm happy it's cheaper, for me, to take the train, esp. since my cheap train might come with the same train schedule. I'm not happy that the 10 pack is going away. However discounted Oyster Cards, T Passes, T money, or similar lessens the loss of the 10 pack. (Plus my trains already cheaper. I'm just being greedy now). I'm neutral that the monthly fare is exactly 20 day passes, and cheaper for me. Meh on DIA price as I probably won't use the DIA train much, but at least it isn't $15 each way. I could see others not being thrilled about the DIA train price, esp those who would take the train into DIA from say Green Valley Ranch. I guess the train's for the downtown traveller, not the DIA service worker.

I'm also confused what happens if you go from I-25 & Broadway to Boulder, a train to regional (?) transfer

[bunt_q]

Any word in there about fare cards? Or are we just planning to skip that entire era of human history, wait for biometric boarding scanners, and continue using cowry shells in the meantime? Particularly for the bus fares, what I really need to know is the barter cost to get from south Broadway to Civic Center. Since I'm about as likely to be carrying three sacks of grain and 17 shekels as I am cash to pay the fare... Happy grumpy Monday morning!

[CharlesCO]

Dumb question that's probably somewhere else or in that link, though tl;dr: will there be fare gates in the commuter rail system?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

Dumb question that's probably somewhere else or in that link, though tl;dr: will there be fare gates in the commuter rail system?

Don't think so. I think we would've seen provision for it at Union Station already if that was in the cards.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Any word in there about fare cards? Or are we just planning to skip that entire era of human history

Honestly, at this point that's not such a terrible idea. Chipcards and phone apps are close.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Any word in there about fare cards? Or are we just planning to skip that entire era of human history, wait for biometric boarding scanners, and continue using cowry shells in the meantime? Particularly for the bus fares, what I really need to know is the barter cost to get from south Broadway to Civic Center. Since I'm about as likely to be carrying three sacks of grain and 17 shekels as I am cash to pay the fare... Happy grumpy Monday morning!

The new cards are now supposed to roll out with the A Line whenever it opens. That's only three years behind schedule.

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Any word in there about fare cards?

Like Wong said, they are delayed (I've heard because of tech reasons - don't ask, don't know).

Originally Posted by seventwenty

I guess the train's for the downtown traveller, not the DIA service worker.

Just like the current SkyRide system, DIA employees receive special treatment (subsidized/free fare). The train is most definitely for DIA service workers.

Originally Posted by seventwenty

I'm also confused what happens if you go from I-25 & Broadway to Boulder, a train to regional (?) transfer

Pay per board, no transfers anymore - so, you'd buy a $2.60 rail ticket, then purchase a $5.50 regional bus ticket.

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

Dumb question that's probably somewhere else or in that link, though tl;dr: will there be fare gates in the commuter rail system?

All the CRT lines will be Proof-of-payment, just like the current LRT lines.

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Honestly, at this point that's not such a terrible idea. Chipcards and phone apps are close.

They are, but they haven't quite solved the poor person without a phone/CC issue. Nonprofits/groups that administer fare-assistance programs still proclaim that reloadable smart cards are best.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

They haven't quite solved the poor person without a phone/CC issue. Nonprofits/groups that administer fare-assistance programs still proclaim that reloadable smart cards are best.

Good point. OK, so we need smartcards first in order to make chipcards work. Fair enough.

I hope we don't declare victory after smartcards though.

[seventwenty]

Thanks for clearing things up Plansit.

[wong21fr]

Anyone else think that all of the fares should be structured in increments of .$25? That the local and rail fares are set at $2.60 is silly and should either be at $2.50 or $2.75 with my preference being for $2.75 because, well, screw the poor.

[Cirrus]

Meh. The increments don't matter once you're no longer using cash to pay for it. Another advantage of smartcards/chipcards/whatever.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I hope we don't declare victory after smartcards though.

#firstworldproblems. Here in the provinces, we're happy not to be working in stone tablets.

Are we losing bus-to-bus transfers too?