Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by officedweller

You mean double interlining the M-Line to retain the existing route (called the "Double Coordinated" option)?
The timing is too complex and a delay on one line will screw up all 3 routes (although Expo Line trains going to Production Way also requires some double interlining too).
It may also have to do with the ridership on each line and getting Expo Line trains back to the Expo Line faster (instead of going all the way to VCC Clark since Millennium Line ridership is lower than Expo Line).

See discussion here:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=6707940&postcount=5909

Yeah, the plan of turning back at Production Way incurs all those timing issues because they're still functionally interlining for a single station. It's all the downsides with none of the upsides (of continuous routing to VCC-Clark).

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by SOSS

Have I missed something with the naming of the lines? Expo line is continually mentioned but I thought Expo was the Waterfront-King George Line and Millennium Line was the Waterfront-Production Way Line and Evergreen being the VCC-Clark to Lafarge Lake-Douglas Line.

From my previous message:

Originally Posted by jsbertram

If the RFEOI is correct, Expo line trains will run between Waterfront and King George (as they always have) or Waterfront and Production/SFU, with the split happening at Columbia.

Millennium line trains will run between VCC / Clarke and Lafarge /Doug College using today's VCC to Lougheed segment and the new Evergreen extension from Lougheed to Doug College.


To switch between Expo trains and Millennium trains, you would need to change at Broadway/Commercial or Lougheed.

It appears there won't be an 'evergreen line' nor 'evergreen line trains' when the Evergreen extension opens next year.

I should point out that this change will likely happen on the day the new Evergreen extension from Lougheed is opened.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

They just posted on Facebook and stated that it will walk over the steel truss.

Cue the soundtrack for the AT-AT Walker.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yes, but that's exactly the reason that interlining of the Bloor and University lines was abandoned in Toronto in 1966.

Passengers did not know which platform to go to catch the "next" train (even though there were flip signs).

It may not be an issue at peak frequency, but if there is 4-5 minutes between trains, going to the wrong platform means a 8-10 minute wait or more depending on the ratio of M-Line and Expo Line trains.

If you "just miss" a train at one platform, do you go down and up to catch the train at the other platform, or wait for the next one at the platform you are on?

i.e. What if the ratio of trains is 3 (M-Line) to 1 (Expo Line), and you are on the Expo Line platform (having just missed a train with doors closed in your face?).

Which also the reason we are puzzled by the switch placement and future platform arrangement at Coquitlam Central.

This can be solved by having track arrival times displayed at the Mezzanine and platforms, similar to what Canada Line does on their platforms:


Track 1
Millennium Train to VCC: 4 Minutes
Millennium Train to VCC: 9 Minutes
Millennium Train to VCC: 14 Minutes

Track 2
Expo Train to Production/SFU: 3 Minutes
Expo Train to Production/SFU: 8 Minutes
Expo Train to Production/SFU: 15 Minutes

Track 3
Expo Train to Waterfront: 2 Minutes
Millennium Train to Lafarge/Doug College: 5 Minutes
Expo Train to Waterfront: 8 Minutes
Millennium Train to Lafarge/Doug College: 10 Minutes


Looking at the the board when arriving by bus, you should be able to figure out which arriving train will get you to Production/SFU first.
(or if you have enough time to hit the starbucks & catch the other train arriving a minute later)

[swimmer_spe]

For the Skytrain, currently Here are the lines

1) Canada line, From Waterfront with branches to the airport and to Brighouse
2) Expo Line, From Waterfront to King George.
3) Millennium Line, From Waterfront to VCC-Clark.

I know the Canada Line wont change. Once the Evergreen extension is finished, how would each line be described?

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

For the Skytrain, currently Here are the lines

1) Canada line, From Waterfront with branches to the airport and to Brighouse
2) Expo Line, From Waterfront to King George.
3) Millennium Line, From Waterfront to VCC-Clark.

I know the Canada Line wont change. Once the Evergreen extension is finished, how would each line be described?

1) Canada line, From Waterfront with branches to the airport and to Brighouse
2) Expo Line, From Waterfront with branches to King George and to Production Way - University.
3) Millennium Line, From VCC-Clark to Lafarge Lake - Douglas.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Looking at the the board when arriving by bus, you should be able to figure out which arriving train will get you to Production/SFU first.
(or if you have enough time to hit the starbucks & catch the other train arriving a minute later)

That wouldn't be 100% though.
There will always be people coming from wherever (ie. the mall) that walk slowly, have heavy bags, etc. that just take too long to get up the stairs, escalator or elevator in exactly 2 minutes.
And at off peak, you'll get an earful of complaints.

And ultimately, if RTP2000 was willing to build the basketweave to avoid the 2 platform problem, and the current plan is/was to wrong-rail to avoid the 2 platform problem, it's enough of an issue that it's highly unlikely that they will implement 2 Vancouver-bound platforms and face heavy criticism from the travelling public.

[TransitJack]

I like this idea... almost like a REAL train station.

Originally Posted by jsbertram

This can be solved by having track arrival times displayed at the Mezzanine and platforms, similar to what Canada Line does on their platforms:


Track 1
Millennium Train to VCC: 4 Minutes
Millennium Train to VCC: 9 Minutes
Millennium Train to VCC: 14 Minutes

Track 2
Expo Train to Production/SFU: 3 Minutes
Expo Train to Production/SFU: 8 Minutes
Expo Train to Production/SFU: 15 Minutes

Track 3
Expo Train to Waterfront: 2 Minutes
Millennium Train to Lafarge/Doug College: 5 Minutes
Expo Train to Waterfront: 8 Minutes
Millennium Train to Lafarge/Doug College: 10 Minutes


Looking at the the board when arriving by bus, you should be able to figure out which arriving train will get you to Production/SFU first.
(or if you have enough time to hit the starbucks & catch the other train arriving a minute later)

[deasine]

Here in England, our National Rail system stations usually have these displays which lists the next train departures, listing scheduled time of service, stations serviced, and train company (which is important in England as tickets are reserved for specific train companies, trust me if people think the SkyTrain system is complicated don't attempt to navigate the rail system here).


Source: CISServices

Other rail stations would have displays listing all serviced stations in alphabetical order and then lists the next fastest direct service:

[Station Name] [Platform] [Time Due/Status]

I think SkyTrain stations especially busier stations would benefit of these displays. You hear some passengers saying they cannot take a Millennium Line train to a combined service station like Metrotown. With these displays, passengers can easily identify which platform they should wait for their next train.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by deasine

Here in England, our National Rail system stations usually have these displays which lists the next train departures, listing scheduled time of service, stations serviced, and train company (which is important in England as tickets are reserved for specific train companies, trust me if people think the SkyTrain system is complicated don't attempt to navigate the rail system here).


Source: CISServices

Other rail stations would have displays listing all serviced stations in alphabetical order and then lists the next fastest direct service:

[Station Name] [Platform] [Time Due/Status]

I think SkyTrain stations especially busier stations would benefit of these displays. You hear some passengers saying they cannot take a Millennium Line train to a combined service station like Metrotown. With these displays, passengers can easily identify which platform they should wait for their next train.

If you're going to use an English analogy, I think the Metropolitan line from London's Baker St might also be a good comparison. Five platforms with services departing for several terminating stops on different spur lines. They have display screens showing platform, time until departure and description of intermediate stops.

[Metro-One]

Skytrain in general really needs to improve / add a proper digital display system with train destinations and arrival times.

The Canada Line is the only section that does a sufficient job at this.

The audio announcements are also a big help on the Canada Line (and should be implemented throughout the entire skytrain system).

[red-paladin]

I agree Metro-One that it should have been part of the Evergreen Line / Skytrain Station renos, but still so much of the population thinks Translink has too much money as it is.

[Metro-One]

Yeah, I was surprised it wasn't.

It may be easy for us to navigate but in all honesty, the skytrain network has become far more complex.

If you are from out of town Commercial / Broadway with its soon to be 5 platform system and Lougheed with its soon to be 3 platform system, and of course Waterfront, do start to become complicated for out of town people or those who do not use the system regularly.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

That wouldn't be 100% though.
There will always be people coming from wherever (ie. the mall) that walk slowly, have heavy bags, etc. that just take too long to get up the stairs, escalator or elevator in exactly 2 minutes.
And at off peak, you'll get an earful of complaints.

And ultimately, if RTP2000 was willing to build the basketweave to avoid the 2 platform problem, and the current plan is/was to wrong-rail to avoid the 2 platform problem, it's enough of an issue that it's highly unlikely that they will implement 2 Vancouver-bound platforms and face heavy criticism from the travelling public.

The problem is that because of the way Lougheed was originally built (expecting the basket-weave tracks on the curve to North Road) and how the Evergreen extension was built (the hump-for-no-reason on the curve to North Road), Translink seems to be locked in to the two platforms & three tracks design.

Adding un-needed complexity to this design is the third track in the station. We know now that a station like Bridgeport can have a set of inbound/outbound tracks on one side and two sets of inbound/outbound tracks on the other side (in this case going to the YVR and Brighouse terminals). The added engineering costs & extra expense for the flying junction likely saved money by simplifying the platform & tracks in the Bridgeport station layout.


The North track and new platform is supposed to be Coquitlam-bound Millennium trains wrong-railing up North Road to the next cross-over switch before reaching Burquitlam, where they will switch back to the normal right-side tracks

The Middle track is to be VCC -bound Millennium trains coming from Burquitlam by taking the cross-over switch south of Burquitlam & wrong-railing down North Road to Lougheed.
Also using the Middle track is to be Production/SFU -bound Expo trains coming from Braid by taking the usual switches into Lougheed.

The South track is to be Waterfront -bound Expo trains, taking the tracks and switches already being used to get to Braid

The Middle track and the South track share the current platform at Lougheed, so transfers between these trains is simply a walk across the platform (going to Braid, New West, Surrey), or just wait for the next VCC -bound train (going past Production/SFU).

Because of this layout of trains using two platforms & three tracks, it is inevitable that some people will have to do the down/up platform switch when changing between Millennium and Expo trains.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yeah, I was surprised it wasn't.

It may be easy for us to navigate but in all honesty, the skytrain network has become far more complex.

If you are from out of town Commercial / Broadway with its soon to be 5 platform system and Lougheed with its soon to be 3 platform system, and of course Waterfront, do start to become complicated for out of town people or those who do not use the system regularly.

I think the new platform at Broadway might actually make things less confusing overall (although more confusing for people who already know the current layout). I believe the plan is for everyone to board inbound trains on the new platform, while people exiting the inbound train will exit onto the existing platform.

[Metro-One]

If you are from out of town and a station has 5 platforms (two of them disconnected on a separate line) it is super confusing, even if their general purposes are more simplified / efficient. This is where good digital signage with arrival / departure times and destinations displayed with platform numbers really helps.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yeah, I was surprised it wasn't.

It may be easy for us to navigate but in all honesty, the skytrain network has become far more complex.

If you are from out of town Commercial / Broadway with its soon to be 5 platform system and Lougheed with its soon to be 3 platform system, and of course Waterfront, do start to become complicated for out of town people or those who do not use the system regularly.

Protip: Tourists are stupid.
Even with the nice big maps at Main Street I still had someone ask "Which way to Surrey?"

Look at the MAP you blunt edge. THE GIANT MAP that is DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF YOU.

The digital displays used on the Millenium Line are fine. Even the Expo Line signs are fine. At worst you are dealing with two lines (expo/millenium, millenium/evergreen, Millenium/Broadway) so you got LOTS of slack to be putting at least two train's worth of scheduled arrivals on the signs.
As an example:

HHH| |HHHHHHHHHHHHH| |
HHH| |HHHHHHHHHHHHH| |
**********************
* SURREY-EAST-------NOW *
* EDMONDS----------2 MIN *
**********************

HHH| |HHHHHHHHHHHHH| |
HHH| |HHHHHHHHHHHHH| |
**********************
* WATERFRONT-WEST-1MIN *
* WATERFRONT-WEST-3MIN *
**********************

HHH| |HHHHHHHHHHHHH| |
HHH| |HHHHHHHHHHHHH| |
**********************
* VCC/CLARK-EAST---1MIN *
* TRAIN 2 MAIN------5MIN *
**********************

Basically the formatting that we use for the digital signs on Main Street.
Can't see it? How about you tell Lamar to ram it and steal back the signs that spew ads 24/7 and should be where service notifications should be. Service notifications scrolling on the same sign as the one used to display the time, an occasional SkyTrain logo and where the next incoming train is going is too much. You want to hear someone ramble about a waste of money?

No really, the massive schedule signs from New York, Toronto or London are completely useless here. No point spending so much effort to declare a schedule when it's an either/or situation, complete with audible announcements, digital signs and with the later Mk II's digital signs on the front/end of the train, plus you will STILL have tourists wonder where the hell they are going because they can't read a map. TaansLink isn't your nanny.

[Metro-One]

I always find it funny how unsympathetic so many people are on here (and unable to put themselves in other people's positions).

I had the skytrain system tattooed on my brain back home and use to feel like the above (the system is so simple! How can you fuck it up)

truth is, for those not in the know, even a 3 line system (especially one with branches at the ends of the lines) does become complicated.

The train station where i live in Japan only has two platforms, with one direction having two branches. Simple eh? You know what, when i first moved here is was confusing for me! (and I can even read around 150 kanji plus hiragana and katakana).

Luckily there are digital signs everywhere at the station (where you buy the tickets and the platforms) with arrival time and destinations clearly displayed (alternating between Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and English). Again, this is a two platform station in what the Japanese consider to be the bush.

So sorry, 5 platform and 3 platform stations on a foreign system WILL be confusing for someone who is new to it.

So according to your thought the digital signage used on the Canada Line is not needed then?

the Canada Line signage IS how the Expo and M lines should be done.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I always find it funny how unsympathetic so many people are on here (and unable to put themselves in other people's positions).

I had the skytrain system tattooed on my brain back home and use to feel like the above (the system is so simple! How can you fuck it up)

truth is, for those not in the know, even a 3 line system (especially one with branches at the ends of the lines) does become complicated.

The train station where i live in Japan only has two platforms, with one direction having two branches. Simple eh? You know what, when i first moved here is was confusing for me! (and I can even read around 150 kanji plus hiragana and katakana).

Luckily there are digital signs everywhere at the station (where you buy the tickets and the platforms) with arrival time and destinations clearly displayed (alternating between Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and English). Again, this is a two platform station in what the Japanese consider to be the bush.

So sorry, 5 platform and 3 platform stations on a foreign system WILL be confusing for someone who is new to it.

So according to your thought the digital signage used on the Canada Line is not needed then?

the Canada Line signage IS how the Expo and M lines should be done.

I still have to laugh at my brother's arrival in New York..
After collecting his bags & passing thru customs, he made a BeeLine to the transit desk to get a transit map to figure out how to get to midtown from JFK.

"I'll take that bus map" pointing at what he wanted.
The lady gave him a booklet of bus routes.
"No. no, I want THAT bus map" pointing again.
"Son, that's the SUBWAY map" in her best grumpy bronx cheer voice.

Welcome to the Big City, kid.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

If you are from out of town and a station has 5 platforms (two of them disconnected on a separate line) it is super confusing, even if their general purposes are more simplified / efficient. This is where good digital signage with arrival / departure times and destinations displayed with platform numbers really helps.

You and I probably know this best, being in Japan. At train stations here, having digital signage showing what trains are leaving at which platforms, AT MINIMUM at the station entrance is the norm here - at least on the JR railways (less so city subways, some private railways). At least, at bigger stations with two platforms. Single-platform stations or stations in the suburbs may or may not get digital display signage. The JR station closest to me (Michinoo) is a pretty small one-platform gig so there's no digital signage.

On the other hand, bigger Japanese train stations tend to be the confluence of many lines and thus are that complicated. I think the Expo/Millennium digital train signs that have been in service up to today have been quite adequate for our needs, especially given our train frequencies. An upgrade in-time for the new expansions, matching the increased complexity, would be great... but if it's a question of where taxpayer money should go, it might be portioned towards somewhere better. At least, that's what the TransLink scrutineers would say.