DENVER | Transportation Thread

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

bobg... I'm not against considering a VMT and in fact CDOT is in process of implementing a study around the concept using volunteers. It would work best if implemented on a Federal scale in fact as otherwise how does the state collect from out of state drivers for example.

To an extent the gas tax is a user fee. It does however tax more heavily gas burners as apposed to more fuel efficient cars. Presumably this is a good idea.

My latent fear is that metro area voters and certain political interests could move to take away a portion of the current RTD 1% sales tax. What if there was a vote to cut that by 25-35% for example? It may seem farfetched presently but things can and do change.

BTW, I'm expecting Big Things out of our Congress this year. Tax Reform and Transportation both come to mind. When they reach a deal each side will spin it in their own political way which is fine. Republicans especially want to demonstrate to the larger electorate that they can do good work prior to 2016. They'll throw a few bones to the tea party by passing a few things that get vetoed. Nothing will be overridden as (it's likely) Republicans will make sure the vote comes up just short if necessary. It may be political theater at its craziest but that's the way it is in DC.


bunt_q... What if a poll asked people if they would mind paying a dime more a gallon along with their neighbors if when they went to the grocery store they didn't bottom out 3 times and get 2 flat tires? Ridiculously simplistic perhaps but he point is that even "dumb" people will vote for what they deem important.

If the actual point of the gas tax is to fix the roads so that we don't bottom out 3 times and get 2 flat tires, wouldn't a VMT tax based on vehicle weight make more sense than having electric cars and hybrids pay less than everyone else, even though they don't wear out the roads any less than everyone else? The gov't mandated fuel economy standards can handle the "gas guzzling" portion of that equation.

Simply raising gas taxes is a losing proposition these days because tax receipts will continue to be lower than anticipated since vehicle gas mileage is quite a better than in the past, and improving every year...in addition to the move to all electric vehicles that use no gas, and therefore do not participate in the gas tax.

Electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles are a small niche market right now, but that is going to change pretty rapidly because of the gov't mandated 54.5 fleet mileage goal by 2025.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

bunt_q... What if a poll asked people if they would mind paying a dime more a gallon along with their neighbors if when they went to the grocery store they didn't bottom out 3 times and get 2 flat tires? Ridiculously simplistic perhaps but he point is that even "dumb" people will vote for what they deem important.

Not if they feel they are already paying for those services, and the only reason there are still potholes is because government in incompetent.

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

Electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles are a small niche market right now, but that is going to change pretty rapidly because of the gov't mandated 54.5 fleet mileage goal by 2025.

Or we vote a new administration in 2016 that decided that is no longer a priority, and those standards just poof away, because somebody realizes that voters don't want to be forced into Priuses, especially when gas is $1.80/gallon.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

If the actual point of the gas tax is to fix the roads so that we don't bottom out 3 times and get 2 flat tires, wouldn't a VMT tax based on vehicle weight make more sense than having electric cars and hybrids pay less than everyone else, even though they don't wear out the roads any less than everyone else? The gov't mandated fuel economy standards can handle the "gas guzzling" portion of that equation.

Simply raising gas taxes is a losing proposition these days because tax receipts will continue to be lower than anticipated since vehicle gas mileage is quite a better than in the past, and improving every year...in addition to the move to all electric vehicles that use no gas, and therefore do not participate in the gas tax.

Electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles are a small niche market right now, but that is going to change pretty rapidly because of the gov't mandated 54.5 fleet mileage goal by 2025.

I hadn't heard of a VMT being based on weight. That makes a lot of sense. I'm not against electric cars and hybrids paying their fair share. In the near term the logistics of implementing a VMT are somewhat steep.

My math says that if you raise the gas tax you'll raise more money than if you don't.

As bunt_q alludes to much can change with the politics as well as with the cost of gas making the move to electrics unlikely in the near term. But electrics could be charged a fee of some sort. They do pay more in electricity rates so maybe that portion should go to roads? It starts getting complicated, eh?

My thingy is getting things rolling sooner than later We need the infrastructure like NOW. Whatever they wish to work out in the longer term is fine by me also.

[TakeFive]

.....
per dailycamera.com (courtesy RTD)

What's so nifty about these BRT buses as you can see is that they go both ways.

RTD has new info on their Fastracks site about 2015 HERE. Regarding the East Line:

The power lines for the East Rail Line to Denver International Airport will be electrified during the early part of the year. Then, in the spring, you will start to see commuter trains on the tracks as a year of intense testing begins. Our new commuter trains are arriving in Denver at the rate of about four per month.

[Cirrus]

Pena Blvd tracks, looking pretty darn good.


RTD on Flickr

[bobg]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Pena Blvd tracks, looking pretty darn good.

They do. What's even more encouraging is that pic has to be several months old because the leaves were just beginning to turn

[bcp]

let's get that 6 mos of testing started!! early opening...i'm gonna speculate 11/15.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

What's so nifty about these BRT buses as you can see is that they go both ways.

Okay that legit made me laugh out loud. Thank you for that.

[TakeFive]

^^
Cirrus: How 'bout dem DC subways?

So it's come down to this? Local PayGo.
Wayne Hicks has the scoop at DBJ.

When Aurora Mayor Steve Hogan looks down the road, he sees a toll. He doesn't see any other way to pay for the upkeep of roads and bridges around metro Denver.

And Denver's own Mayor Hancock:

"There's not a mayor in this nation who's not concerned about a lack of investment in infrastructure," Hancock said. "In Denver alone, we have about a billion dollars worth of infrastructure that we have got to tend to, that we have got to find an answer for. These are roads, sidewalks, curbs and gutters, and we have no reasonable way to do that except to go back to the public and say we've got to find a way to pony up more to do this."

The article has a few interesting tidbits worth checking out.
So not only the state but the cities (and presumably counties) are gasping for road maintenance funds. Not quite sure how cities would troll for tolls though?

Editorial note: Coming out of this last recession da people have found a very different world - economic system. The structural changes had already occurred but had been masked by the bubble economy. At least for awhile the Fracking Boom mitigated things. The growing income disparity though is now likely to squeeze a little more. No wonder there's little appetite for tax increases.

Then there's the politics. I understand Republicans will run on "lifting up the poor and middle class." With the wind at their backs such fun fantasies should be an easy sell and good way to get elected. Honestly, I don't give a flip who gets elected. Just curious how the real problems will be solved?

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Cirrus: How 'bout dem DC subways?

/shrug/
Someone dies on Colorado roads every day and it doesn't make the news. You only heard about the Metro death because it's so rare. There'll be an investigation, possibly some regulations will be tweaked, some additional maintenance done, but it doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of things.

I've been on - let me think - 6 Metro trains since the smoke incident, and it hasn't entered my mind once.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The article has a few interesting tidbits worth checking out.
So not only the state but the cities (and presumably counties) are gasping for road maintenance funds. Not quite sure how cities would troll for tolls though?

We have no problem funding infrastructure for new development, which is vastly more expensive. The difference is, we do it before there are voters. Lack of infrastructure funding is a political problem, nothing more. When it gets bad enough, people will vote for property taxes. And the problem will be solved.

I drop 50 mills on a new development to fund infrastructure alone and nobody blinks, and it still turns out to be more affordable than anything in Denver proper. The fact that the entire mill levy in Denver is only 80-something-mills - half what some suburban jurisdictions pay - is almost criminal. But that'll change, and it'll be for the better.

[TakeFive]

^^ Denver should be in pretty good shape. IIRC, the Better Denver Bonds incl. an extra roughly $26 million a year for general maintenance. That could be closer to $30+ million by now I'd guess. Not really a lot of money in the big scheme of things but at least they had the foresight to do that.

[bcp]

dear affordable home seeker...welcome to the american dream! we are going to artificially cap your equity gains, and raise your mill-levy! but you are next to union station just kidding around...property taxes are very low in big D

[Curtis Park]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

.....
per dailycamera.com (courtesy RTD)
:

These look nice. I love the pigeon, makes one think about our urban wildlife.

[Cirrus]

I thought that was supposed to be a hawk. I guess it doesn't matter.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by bcp

dear affordable home seeker...welcome to the american dream! we are going to artificially cap your equity gains, and raise your mill-levy! but you are next to union station just kidding around...property taxes are very low in big D

Especially relative to Chicago, but at least you get real BRT out of it. Although with the 2nd highest sales tax and the 2nd highest property taxes in the nation you would think they could build a gold plated El line on Western AND Ashland.

As far as Denver is concerned I am wondering what the next round of assessments will do to property tax revenue. Especially in light of the TABOR limits being removed. I have to imagine that is not an insignificant amount being added to city coffers even without a tax increase.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by bobg

As far as Denver is concerned I am wondering what the next round of assessments will do to property tax revenue. Especially in light of the TABOR limits being removed. I have to imagine that is not an insignificant amount being added to city coffers even without a tax increase.

I think you're right. It is going to be a fat, fat increase.

[TakeFive]

It's been quite a spell since I visited TransportPolitic. I did find this (somewhat) interesting graphic there.


.....

2015 will be so exciting. Most of the heavy lifting will be completed this year on Fastracks projects. It won't be long before trains are moving along the East Line.
So far the weather has been accommodating for getting lots of work done.

It's amazing to look ahead and envision how urban Aurora will become.

Seriously, while it will likely take a couple of decades (and more) I would think that the area west of I-225 and north of about 12th Ave. all the way up to Smith Road should see significant improvement. The area east of I-225 will have such great access to either Fitzsimons, DIA, downtown or the DTC that it's bound to see TOD development over time. If a lot of it is more "affordable" that's a good thing.

[TakeFive]

I found me a brand new blog. It's called StreetsBlog. Haha, not much to it really but I did find a couple of interesting tidbits. The President mentioning infrastructure last night is what sent me sleuthing. Change up a few keywords and you get different source ideas. Kinda cool.

Transportation funding was extended through May 31, 2015. Ideally they would do a more typical 5-year Bill but there was mention of an extension beyond the 2016 election which presumably would mean Spring of 2017.

If the Republicans want something to toot their horn about to the electorate I can't think of a better idea than some extra splash for transportation funding. It also occurred to me that most of the Oil & Gas states are red states. With the pending slowdown in that activity what would be better for the economy of those states than some added infrastructure spending? If they decided to raise the gas tax by a Dime (for example) they could simply blame the President whereas after 2016 that might be different.

Few interesting quotes from StreetsBlog, thanks to Tanya Snyder:

Will lawmakers suggest that the Highway Trust Fund should just be used for highways? Of course they will! But the conversation won’t end there.
... some people blame the end of earmarks for the difficulty passing a bill (you can’t buy votes with pork anymore).

In reference to Amtrak there's this:

Tomorrow, the House Transportation Committee will consider a bill that changes the nation’s policies on passenger rail. The proposal, while it includes some cuts, is a departure from the senseless vendetta many House Republicans have waged against Amtrak in the past. The National Association of Railroad Passengers, NARP, says the plan contains “commonsense regulatory and governance reforms.”

With respect to Bike/Ped funding there's this:

When Congress passed a two-year transportation bill in 2012, active transportation advocates had to scrape and claw for every penny of funding for walking and biking programs. When the dust settled, it seemed they would have to repeat the same old battles when the law expired.

Btw, I'm really not obsessed with Republicans; it's just a fact that they get to write the next Transportation Bill in both chambers. Republicans are primarily made up of two groups: what I'll call the "business sensible" group and the Tea Party members. About the most the Dems can hope for is a cookie or two for going along with the first group on any votes. I am still optimistic.

[CPVLIVE]

Not sure if this has been posted already. The Central Rail Extension Mobility Study Final Report from RTD. It's loaded with pretty renders.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t5xa8hx9yj199m6/CRE%20Final%20Report.pdf?dl=0