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  #7941  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 5:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Parker Lewis View Post
Sarcasm aside, it actually is a fairly important infrastructure project. Especially for Colorado and the Denver Basin. Many of the shale plays consist of condensate that we don't have the capacity to refine because of logistics. The Niobrara is exactly that, as all the oil produced is high gravity that is discounted significantly. The current debate about the U.S. exporting oil is precisely about Colorado oil. The heavy Canadian oil will be a great blend for future condensate production growth. Im not trying to debate the politics, but I suspect the export infrastructure and job base will be great. The DJ Basin can use any advantage available because the economics are not as good as other basins. When prices come back, the free money that has been thrown at the industry will not follow to the extent it had before. This means the job growth will slow down when the recovery begins in what I suspect will be in 12-18 months? Anyway, this project will have a direct influence on the colorado economy. I certainly would like to see as much healthy growth come into the metro as possible.

I might add that pipelines are much more efficient and safer than trains. A few dollars barrel makes a big difference at these prices.
That's interesting info that I wasn't aware of; I only knew that Colorado's oil wasn't as good as others.

I really don't have a position on the pipeline; got no dog in that fight. Just the political silliness drives me a little nutty. My primary issue is transportation funding. The economic benefits and jobs would reach every corner of the country.

With respect to O&G not exactly sure how the XL benefits Colorado that much exactly; the export infrastructure is all on the Gulf Coast and is/will need to be expanded more. You put crude in one end and it comes out the other, no? With respect to exporting I have mixed feelings. I assume you know that they get around that by refining as refined products can be exported. I prefer that requirement I think. Or am I missing a key piece(s)?

With respect to transport by rail, they use that from the Bakkens to send oil either east or west as they get much better prices. There's already a glut going south into the Cushing and the Gulf Coast areas. So far O&G companies have been unwilling to guarantee the necessary shipments for pipeline companies to build pipe east or west from N. Dakota.
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  #7942  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 5:44 AM
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Originally Posted by LAM View Post
Looks like someone was a little light headed when they drew the maps in that rather dry report (that I did not read). Especially 285/Hampden which they drew through the middle of the Kennedy Golf Course. Of course, that would probably be a much better use for that land anyway:-)
First thing I wondered is who the heck is "Reason Foundation?" A quick check informed they are a "libertarian think tank." Doesn't mean the results are bad but it gives me a good hint on where it may go? I'll have to find some time to check it out better.
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  #7943  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 6:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Denver View Post
Bunt you may know this. Can the Colorado legislature raise the state gas tax without running into issue with tabor?
You know I tried to figure this out for me-self but now I forget what I determined or at least exactly why. It seemed like the should be able to because of the way it was handled ie. like outside of the General Fund.

I assume that all states are scratching their heads as the need for transportation infrastructure grows. The ARRA gave states an extra shot but it was only about $120 billion of the total pie. The 100 extension bills have kept funding going but they're running out of time and money without a longer term fix.

Utah has reported in that they're considering raising their fuel taxes. Even Arizona is thinking... although the Phoenix Metro area gets all it needs from the metro half percent sales tax. It's other areas of the state that are wanting.
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  #7944  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 8:37 AM
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
First thing I wondered is who the heck is "Reason Foundation?" A quick check informed they are a "libertarian think tank." Doesn't mean the results are bad but it gives me a good hint on where it may go? I'll have to find some time to check it out better.

soooo....curious to hear what you find....a focus on personal responsibility vs. what somebody said that was weird (which happens every day, in every party)
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  #7945  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Doesn't mean the results are bad
Actually it means exactly that. Intelligent people need to learn when to reign in their "open mindedness" just as much, if not moreso, than today's version of "conservatives" need to reign in their fantasyland ideas. If you are a reality based, thinking human being and are not at the point where you can dismiss off hand, anyone who can call themselves libertarian in 2014 with a straight face, you're wasting valuable metabolic activity that could be used more constructively to solve problems. (not because I believe actual libertarian ideas don't have a place to inform some policies in this world - but because of what the actual ideas of people who have co-opted that word are) Same with the tea party, same with anyone who starts any sentence at any time with "I saw on fox news/drudge/Beck/Brietbart/etc.

Also just to prove that the instant conclusion I reached when I found out what the Reason Foundation is was correct, I read the report. Shockingly, it recommends never building another rail line again, light or commuter, including those approved already; expanding and widening highways, and toll lanes. Not even a peep about density, pedestrians or bikes - just an off hand remark about Euclidean zoning.
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  #7946  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 1:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Brainpathology View Post
Actually it means exactly that. Intelligent people need to learn when to reign in their "open mindedness" just as much, if not moreso, than today's version of "conservatives" need to reign in their fantasyland ideas. If you are a reality based, thinking human being and are not at the point where you can dismiss off hand, anyone who can call themselves libertarian in 2014 with a straight face, you're wasting valuable metabolic activity that could be used more constructively to solve problems. (not because I believe actual libertarian ideas don't have a place to inform some policies in this world - but because of what the actual ideas of people who have co-opted that word are) Same with the tea party, same with anyone who starts any sentence at any time with "I saw on fox news/drudge/Beck/Brietbart/etc.

Also just to prove that the instant conclusion I reached when I found out what the Reason Foundation is was correct, I read the report. Shockingly, it recommends never building another rail line again, light or commuter, including those approved already; expanding and widening highways, and toll lanes. Not even a peep about density, pedestrians or bikes - just an off hand remark about Euclidean zoning.
Thank you for reading the piece of Reason shit and saving me (and possibly others) not only the time, but also the usual brain painful excursion into the realm of absolute stupidity that people such as Reason et al produce, actually thinking that so many others will mindlessly jig forth to their rational-less pied-piper.......

I do have to wonder though, had I started to read this, at what page would my eyes have been tired of rolling too much?


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  #7947  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 1:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Brainpathology View Post
......

"I saw on fox news/drudge/Beck/Brietbart/etc.

................
I think that AARP is just about there as well.......

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  #7948  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 2:35 PM
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Okay I guess I should have anticipated this discussion getting a little partisan. For the record my political philosophy is...complicated and I have a strong Libertarian background as well as Liberal.

I hoped some of the more wonkish among us would find the humor in the reason transportation plan. Don't get me wrong there's some good concepts in the plan that could have aspects of it implemented somewhere in the metro, but it's taken to an extreme that makes it read like The Onion wrote it. The financing mechanisms are hilariously unrealistic (IE cutting funding for state patrol ports of entry by 52% and somehow making that revenue up through privatization of benefits currently under PERA then borrowing against that savings ), and the overall scheme seems like it was drawn up in a simulator without regard of what it would take other than money to implement it. Think about what it would take politically and ROW wise to build optional toll overpasses/underpasses at every major intersection on Colorado Blvd. Not to mention the whole plan was written under the guise of being more realistic and fiscally responsible than the current DRCOG plan and it is exactly the opposite.

Last edited by bobg; Jan 9, 2015 at 4:35 PM. Reason: Need to drink coffee before posting
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  #7949  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by denconyny View Post
I think that AARP is just about there as well.......

Probably, they aren't speaking in places I can hear them yet. Which is odd.. you'd think they'd be used to speaking loudly.
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  #7950  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 4:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker Lewis View Post
Sarcasm aside, it actually is a fairly important infrastructure project. Especially for Colorado and the Denver Basin. Many of the shale plays consist of condensate that we don't have the capacity to refine because of logistics. The Niobrara is exactly that, as all the oil produced is high gravity that is discounted significantly. The current debate about the U.S. exporting oil is precisely about Colorado oil. The heavy Canadian oil will be a great blend for future condensate production growth. Im not trying to debate the politics, but I suspect the export infrastructure and job base will be great. The DJ Basin can use any advantage available because the economics are not as good as other basins. When prices come back, the free money that has been thrown at the industry will not follow to the extent it had before. This means the job growth will slow down when the recovery begins in what I suspect will be in 12-18 months? Anyway, this project will have a direct influence on the colorado economy. I certainly would like to see as much healthy growth come into the metro as possible.

I might add that pipelines are much more efficient and safer than trains. A few dollars barrel makes a big difference at these prices.
Interesting, that was something I didn't know (the synergies of Canadian tarsand oil with oil produced from the Niobrara basin). I'm not saying that Keystone XL is not a good infrastructure project, but it doesn't have nearly the impact, positive or negative, that it's been positioned as politically. To me, since it doesn't involve public subsidies, it's a private project that should be approved as long as it meets all regulatory requirements. If it's not approved, the tarsand oil is going to still come south, at a reduced rate, and will also head west and be both refined and exported from BC.
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  #7951  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bobg View Post
Okay I guess I should have anticipated this discussion getting a little partisan......
I really don't think that anyone here is anti-libertarian..... the problem is that there is no libertarian message these days to be anti of........ the ones with all the $$$$$ long ago already bought it all, lock stock and (oil) barrel..... and the only libertain message left (but actually right) today is made to fit the agenda of those with all the $$$$$.....

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  #7952  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 5:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Denver View Post
Bunt you may know this. Can the Colorado legislature raise the state gas tax without running into issue with tabor?
Complicated, but probably not with the gas tax in its current form. Whatever increase we wanted would have to be in the nature of fee to avoid an election. And the amount of the fee would have to be reasonably related to its intended uses. Fee revenues can not be used to defray general costs of government - so we couldn't raise the gas tax and plop it in the general fund. But the FASTER bridge fee that got tacked on to our vehicle registrations a few years back was upheld by the Court of Appeals in August. As an example, though, I do not think you could use a gas fee for transit. (See the third factor below.)

One thing is absolutely certain - it would get litigated. So you can be sure the legislature would be extremely careful in structuring it, like they were with the FASTER bridge fee.

There is another thing to consider, in that TABOR also limits to total revenues the state can receive. I do not have the numbers to know if we are bumping up against that, but from what I understand about the likelihood of us getting tax refunds this year, plus the additional revenue marijuana is generating, I do believe we are at the total cap in taxes the state government is allowed to retain in the current year. (In Colorado, if we have extra revenue because the economy is roaring, state government does not get to keep that revenue - without an election - we have to give that money back. Most newcomers to Colorado do not remember those days. But in the 90s, we all got a check every year.)

Here is actual language from last August's Court of Appeals case:

"To determine whether a government mandated financial imposition is a 'fee' or a 'tax,' the dispositive criteria is the primary or dominant purpose of such imposition at the time the enactment calling for its collection is passed." Barber, 196 P.3d at 248 (emphasis added). This inquiry requires examination of several factors.

First, we review the language of the enabling statute . If the language states that a primary purpose is to raise revenues for general governmental spending, it is a tax; but if it indicates that the primary purpose of the charge is to finance a particular service, then the charge is a fee. Id. The fact that a fee incidentally or indirectly raises revenue does not alter its essential character as a fee, transforming it into a tax.Id.

Second,we look to the primary or principal purpose for which the money is raised, not the manner in which it is ultimately spent. Id. (if the primary purpose for the charge is to raise revenues for general governmental spending, then the charge is a tax); see Bloom, 784 P.2d at 307-08.

Third, we look to see if the primary purpose of the charge is to finance or defray the cost of services provided to those who must pay it. Barber , 196 P.3d at 241,249.

Any fee amount must be reasonably related to the overall cost of the service; however, mathematical exactitude is not required. Bloom, 784 P.2d at 308. The particular mode adopted by an entity in assessing the fee is generally a matter of legislative discretion. Id.

Last edited by bunt_q; Jan 9, 2015 at 5:33 PM.
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  #7953  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bobg View Post
Okay I guess I should have anticipated this discussion getting a little partisan. For the record my political philosophy is...complicated and I have a strong Libertarian background as well as Liberal.

I hoped some of the more wonkish among us would find the humor in the reason transportation plan. Don't get me wrong there's some good concepts in the plan that could have aspects of it implemented somewhere in the metro, but it's taken to an extreme that makes it read like The Onion wrote it. The financing mechanisms are hilariously unrealistic (IE cutting funding for state patrol ports of entry by 52% and somehow making that revenue up through privatization of benefits currently under PERA then borrowing against that savings ), and the overall scheme seems like it was drawn up in a simulator without regard of what it would take other than money to implement it. Think about what it would take politically and ROW wise to build optional toll overpasses/underpasses at every major intersection on Colorado Blvd. Not to mention the whole plan was written under the guise of being more realistic and fiscally responsible than the current DRCOG plan and it is exactly the opposite.
Interesting comment.

Here's what drives me batty. With respect to "financing" the price of gas at the pump goes up and down like a yo-yo by a $ or more and sometimes even dramatically. When the auto's gas is getting low people pull up and fill-er-up. Yet the suggestion of adding a dime or two to the fuel tax sends (some) politicos into a dizzy tizzy.

There is nothing more critical to our national interest than the efficient movement of people AND goods.


bunt_q... Somehow I thought the fuel tax was an island unto itself. Apparently not.

I would just go back to a previous suggestion I made. Let the legislature craft a state-wide referendum for the voters to decide. Colorado voters have repeatedly shown their comfort in approving new taxes when they know how it will be spent. Either they want better roads (and transit) or they don't. Put in language that takes the fuel tax either outside of TABOR or as a permanent exception to TABOR.
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  #7954  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 6:59 PM
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Breaking....

In an odd twist of all things legal that only bunt could appreciate... and as reported by USAToday
Quote:
Nebraska's highest court ruled 4-3 that the three landowners who sued the state had legal standing to bring their case and that the law approving the pipeline was unconstitutional
However....
Quote:
But under the Nebraska state constitution, "No legislative act shall be held unconstitutional except by the concurrence of five judges."

"The legislation must stand by default," the court said in a 64-page opinion upholding the law.
Now if I were President... I would hold out on the basis of urging Congress to instead pass the 2015 Humdinger Jobs Bill that combined both transportation and the Keystone XL pipeline.
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  #7955  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 7:02 PM
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Yet the suggestion of adding a dime or two to the fuel tax sends (some) politicos into a dizzy tizzy.

There is nothing more critical to our national interest than the efficient movement of people AND goods.
It drives politicos into a tizzy because it drives voters into a tizzy. Gas tax increases poll right up there with genocide and baby animal rape. Your average voter is stupid, has no sense of how much transportation infrastructure actually costs - nor the ability to comprehend the scale of the numbers we deal with in construction - and will tell you with a completely straight face that "I already pay for roads." There is no political upside to being the elected official who takes it upon himself to try and educate the public on such issues.
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  #7956  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 7:23 PM
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Brainpathology... Thanks, I do value my "metabolic activity."

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Originally Posted by denconyny View Post
I think that AARP is just about there as well.......
What have you against old people? Well we don't want to go down that road.

Let me just say for the record (of course) that if the Governor of the Great State of Ohio were to somehow secure the Republican nomination for president in 2016, I'd be hard-pressed not to vote for him. That would be in contrast to the Governor of the Great State of Wisconsin. While Gov. Walker can check all the boxes by regurgitating what he heard on Talk Radio (or Brietbart), Gov. Kasich was all too happy to correct his friend's revisionist history since he was in the trenches during the Clinton years. I'm less concerned about the color of the banner than if they have a brain that can actually be engaged.
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  #7957  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by denconyny View Post
I really don't think that anyone here is anti-libertarian..... the problem is that there is no libertarian message these days to be anti of........ the ones with all the $$$$$ long ago already bought it all, lock stock and (oil) barrel..... and the only libertain message left (but actually right) today is made to fit the agenda of those with all the $$$$$.....

Oh no I fully get that (and agree with a lot of the disdain lobbed at tea partiers and those claiming to be libertarian in modern times). I am just kind of surprised it went that route almost immediately.
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  #7958  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 7:33 PM
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Interesting comment.

Here's what drives me batty. With respect to "financing" the price of gas at the pump goes up and down like a yo-yo by a $ or more and sometimes even dramatically. When the auto's gas is getting low people pull up and fill-er-up. Yet the suggestion of adding a dime or two to the fuel tax sends (some) politicos into a dizzy tizzy.

There is nothing more critical to our national interest than the efficient movement of people AND goods.
In my perfect world the state sets the gas tax to a point where it just accounts for negative externalities of fossil fuels. That would likely lower the tax which I don't think requires a vote. The gas tax revenue would at that point be solely used for cleaner transportation alternatives throughout the state.

Additionally, the legislature pushes through a VMT but structures it as user fee that is solely for car related infrastructure. That way the state can better keep up with the costs as infrastructure costs rise or fall. Unfortunately, I doubt even that is politically feasible even with no election needed (in theory).

As for the Feds, well let's let the new congress make baby steps before we start expecting it to actually make policy. But something similar on a national level would be nice, but is even less feasible given DC's dysfunction.

So yeah it drives me crazy as well. Everyone complains about infrastructure but no one wants to pay for it because a large portion of the country believes they already are, and finding a path to pay for it is next to impossible right now.
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  #7959  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 9:36 PM
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bobg... I'm not against considering a VMT and in fact CDOT is in process of implementing a study around the concept using volunteers. It would work best if implemented on a Federal scale in fact as otherwise how does the state collect from out of state drivers for example.

To an extent the gas tax is a user fee. It does however tax more heavily gas burners as apposed to more fuel efficient cars. Presumably this is a good idea.

My latent fear is that metro area voters and certain political interests could move to take away a portion of the current RTD 1% sales tax. What if there was a vote to cut that by 25-35% for example? It may seem farfetched presently but things can and do change.

BTW, I'm expecting Big Things out of our Congress this year. Tax Reform and Transportation both come to mind. When they reach a deal each side will spin it in their own political way which is fine. Republicans especially want to demonstrate to the larger electorate that they can do good work prior to 2016. They'll throw a few bones to the tea party by passing a few things that get vetoed. Nothing will be overridden as (it's likely) Republicans will make sure the vote comes up just short if necessary. It may be political theater at its craziest but that's the way it is in DC.


bunt_q... What if a poll asked people if they would mind paying a dime more a gallon along with their neighbors if when they went to the grocery store they didn't bottom out 3 times and get 2 flat tires? Ridiculously simplistic perhaps but he point is that even "dumb" people will vote for what they deem important.
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  #7960  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 9:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post

What have you against old people? Well we don't want to go down that road.

.....................................
Absolutely nothing against old people...... love them and all the best to them.......

It's AARP that's pretending to be something that it isn't anymore......


Last edited by denconyny; Jan 10, 2015 at 4:45 AM.
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