Canada's Panamerica Identity

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by lio45

Going back to architectural comparisons a little bit (I think it's the right thread) because I just saw two very fresh SSP pictures almost back to back which really reminded me how similar the residential built form of the land of free healthcare can be to the residential built form of the land of private healthcare.

Those two views both look like they could be Anywhere, USA and Anywhere, Canada to me (at least at first sight and roughly speaking).

I'd give pic credits to the two SSP users who took these pics but not right now, in order to not spoil any guesses from people who want to try...

The pictures don't like like "anywhere Canada," though. In southern Ontario you get a lot of brick, and in some places you get a good amount of vinyl siding (which I hate), but there's hardly any wood siding here. And those fences/walls at the front of the property are foreign here. You don't get houses like that in Quebec, either.

That first picture looks like Buffalo, and the second one looks like Winnipeg. Though I'm waiting to be shown I'm wrong, as you can take photographs from certain angles to suggest contradictory things. The camera always lies, in other words. Though when placed in context of an entire photo thread you wouldn't be able to sustain the trickery!

[kool maudit]

i think what he is saying is, ok, they might be canada, they might be the states. but they're not japan. they're not norway. they're not switzerland or argentina or tanzania or italy or vietnam either.

there are a lot of photos of that basic type that could either be canada, the united states or... that's it. no other countries.

[ue]

Originally Posted by esquire

Not to pick nits, but to that assertion I say oh yes there is. Some (but just to be clear, not all or even most) reserves fit that bill. It may be largely invisible to people who live in the 3 or 4 largest Canadian cities, but many indigenous people in Canada have it pretty rough even by US standards.

I think that is the one glaring exception to the rule.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ue

I think that is the one glaring exception to the rule.

It's basically what keeps us from getting a perfect score. Regardless of one's opinion on the cause of the situation, I think we can all agree that it is definitely a huge black eye for Canada.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

The pictures don't like like "anywhere Canada," though. In southern Ontario you get a lot of brick, and in some places you get a good amount of vinyl siding (which I hate), but there's hardly any wood siding here.

I don't know about southern Ontario but here in Quebec and also in the northeastern US "wood" and "vinyl" for houses of this vintage are pretty much the exact same category of houses, i.e. originally wood and currently exhibiting as their exterior wrapping either a coat of restored-repainted-wood or a coat of vinyl-on-top-or-original-wood. (Depending on whether or not there was a tasteless individual who also happened to like to renovate at some point in the chain of previous owners.) Also known as non-brick. Brick is one big category and the other big category is wood-vinyl.

For example, the second house in the first picture, the beige one with maroon touches, is almost certainly vinyl-clad. The width of the planks in the top section (the triangle) is pretty much only available as aluminum/vinyl. At least here. It's a dead giveaway that it's not wood.



And sure those two pics aren't literally a built form that can be found absolutely everywhere but it could be Winnipeg, it could be Vancouver, it could be (areas of) Ontario, it could be the Maritimes, it could be Sherbrooke. And it could be PA, NJ, MD, MA, and even an area broader than that.

It's a very very very typical North American residential neighborhood from [1880-1920].

That first picture looks like Buffalo, and the second one looks like Winnipeg. Though I'm waiting to be shown I'm wrong, as you can take photographs from certain angles to suggest contradictory things. The camera always lies, in other words. Though when placed in context of an entire photo thread you wouldn't be able to sustain the trickery!

No, you're not wrong. As a matter of fact, you're very close to totally right, as usual... or at least as you often are, with rare exceptions ("those brawny/muscular 1920s corporate buildings found in Cleveland don't exist in Canada" )

Most people were right so far, in fact I think everyone was, without exception.

Also, FWIW, *I* did not take photographs from any angle; they were both taken by other SSP users. The first one is Rochester NY from a Rochester photo thread currently in the first page of the City Photos subforum and the other is a neighborhood of Vancouver, photo set is currently a few pages back from the end of the "Post Pics of your City" thread here.

There are areas of Sherbrooke, Quebec, that look very close (in terms of building style) to what can be seen in both these pics.

And what I find interesting is that you could swap a house from the first picture with a house from the second picture and the resulting two pictures wouldn't look weird. That's pretty much the definition of "very similar built form".

[lio45]

Originally Posted by shappy

I agree: first is US and second is Canadian. The first is more meticulous, more refined (proud?), and the design of the one on the end is pretty unusual for a middle class neighbourhood in Canada. The second is more comfortable, lived-in (uglier? ha), haphazard, relaxed...

It's the architecture itself but also the landscaping and overall context that gives it away in this particular example, I think.

Interestingly enough, any one single house from the "uglier"/"haphazard" picture is probably worth more than the entire bunch of houses from the "meticulous"/"refined" one. (Well, at least at the moment; I don't think it's a permanent or stable situation, the Vancouver bubble and properties-wages gap can't last forever and I also expect Upstate NY to eventually rebound from its low point.)

Originally Posted by Dr Nevergold

This is a distinct and easily visualized difference between the two nations. Windsor and Detroit are great examples side by side. Windsor is by no means a rich city, but it is more equalized and livable than its neighbor.

True. Of course there are differences, no one said there weren't. In this subforum though I think the differences are generally exaggerated while the (numerous) similarities tend to be downplayed.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

i think what he is saying is, ok, they might be canada, they might be the states. but they're not japan. they're not norway. they're not switzerland or argentina or tanzania or italy or vietnam either.

there are a lot of photos of that basic type that could either be canada, the united states or... that's it. no other countries.

Well, yeah, sure. But we're obviously speaking within a North American context here. Or at least, I am.

Originally Posted by kool maudit

And what I find interesting is that you could swap a house from the first picture with a house from the second picture and the resulting two pictures wouldn't look weird. That's pretty much the definition of "very similar built form".

But what's even more interesting is the vast difference in vernacular styles on either side of the Niagara River. Because a street of houses like this...



...does not exist in Southern Ontario.

Which is why you had to use a photograph from Vancouver. Actually, you could have chosen from any of the cities between Winnipeg and Vancouver, though even so, nowhere in Canada do we have streets and streets full of such large houses like they do in even smaller cities in the U.S., never mind the major northeast and midwest cities.

Winnipeg stands out, though. Take a Google Streetview tour of Wellington Crescent in Winnipeg. That's probably the most American-looking residential area in Canada.

In spite of the fact that we look more alike than either of us resemble Tokyo, it's still interesting to note how places like Buffalo and Toronto are so very unalike. Nobody would ever confuse the two.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Well, yeah, sure. But we're obviously speaking within a North American context here. Or at least, I am.

Of course not... at least in my case... because "within a North American context", Canada and the US are about as different as possible in nearly every respect.

A and B can be very alike, but if you're analyzing only these two "within a strictly A-and-B-only context" you will only see the differences.



Out of pure curiosity, I'd like to do a test with you (you'll be an awesome subject thanks to your vast knowledge of architectural styles). Try to make sure you don't see the location (be careful, it's super easy to have it spoiled!) of these four semi-random samples of centenarian residential areas, take a short look, and let me know your suppositions/conclusions.


https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4083291,-...1!3m2!1spV8OQUg2sc1sBZYlhnMGoQ!2e0?hl=fr

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4059234,-...1!3m2!1s_rDQU1c9rpZC27FV3Y01gQ!2e0?hl=fr

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.405934,-7...1!3m2!1sxqTvlGS2yWc3IZKkKyG0Kw!2e0?hl=fr

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4057768,-...1!3m2!1sOqHuL_Gq0IYm58ENip02MQ!2e0?hl=fr

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Which is why you had to use a photograph from Vancouver.

I did not have to use anything; I saw it, and thought "I could never guess that this is Vancouver and only Vancouver, while on the other hand I could absolutely swear that this is North America". (In other words, what kool maudit said.)

It reminded me of our discussions about how apparently architectural styles are starkly different across the border, so I shared in this thread. Seemed the appropriate thread for it.


That Van pic could easily have been taken in the Northeast, especially in a smaller city than Rochester.

[Dr Nevergold]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's basically what keeps us from getting a perfect score. Regardless of one's opinion on the cause of the situation, I think we can all agree that it is definitely a huge black eye for Canada.

I'm aware of the conditions of some of the first nations communities. Not all are bad, but to be honest the populations that live in those conditions are relatively small. Not insignificant, but in proportion to the US very small to the amount of poor you see south of the border.

I agree, its one of the worst aspects of Canada are the conditions some first nations people have to live in and deserves more attention.

[Architype]

The second picture posted above is in the Strathcona neighbourhood, Vancouver. Notable identifying features found in the Vancouver photo include unpainted wood siding with colourful accents; a rustic heritage look extending to structural landscape features, distinctive to Canada's west coast.

https://goo.gl/maps/8kqIb

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Architype

The second picture posted above is in the Strathcona neighbourhood, Vancouver. Notable identifying features found in the Vancouver photo include unpainted wood siding with colourful accents; a rustic heritage look extending to structural landscape features, distinctive to Canada's west coast.

https://goo.gl/maps/8kqIb

Unpainted cedar shingle siding is something you can see reasonably frequently in at least Quebec and northern New England (and possibly other areas too but I can't personally vouch for it).

(Incidentally, with my ex last year we almost bought a little house in northern VT that was clad in unpainted cedar shingles.)


It's not exclusive to Vancouver. An entire street of them, maybe (I've never seen that anywhere, now that would indeed be a "rustic"-looking neighborhood) but that's not what that Van picture was.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Which is why you had to use a photograph from Vancouver.

Originally Posted by lio45

I did not have to use anything; I saw it, and thought "I could never guess that this is Vancouver and only Vancouver, while on the other hand I could absolutely swear that this is North America". (In other words, what kool maudit said.)

Should have phrased that differently: you couldn't have used a photo from southern Ontario there. But otherwise that photo looks like anywhere from Winnipeg to Vancouver. It's very Canadian prairie and/or American.

Again, I agree that North America "looks North American," but that's a given. When I say that those photos are foreign in a southern Ontario context, I'm not trying to claim that they look like as different from here as Tokyo or Madrid.

You seem to be hammering home the point that they could be "anywhere North America." To a non-North American that's almost certainly true, but to someone from southern Ontario or, say, Arizona or Florida, that's not the case at all.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by lio45

Out of pure curiosity, I'd like to do a test with you (you'll be an awesome subject thanks to your vast knowledge of architectural styles). Try to make sure you don't see the location (be careful, it's super easy to have it spoiled!) of these four semi-random samples of centenarian residential areas, take a short look, and let me know your suppositions/conclusions.


https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4083291,-...1!3m2!1spV8OQUg2sc1sBZYlhnMGoQ!2e0?hl=fr

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4059234,-...1!3m2!1s_rDQU1c9rpZC27FV3Y01gQ!2e0?hl=fr

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.405934,-7...1!3m2!1sxqTvlGS2yWc3IZKkKyG0Kw!2e0?hl=fr

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4057768,-...1!3m2!1sOqHuL_Gq0IYm58ENip02MQ!2e0?hl=fr

They almost look American to me, except that the houses in an older, upper income neighbourhood like that would have busier detail on them, more baroque flourishes in the trim and the like. And in the U.S. you never have small apartment complexes or semi-detached houses on the same street as grand mansions. In keeping with the theme of this thread, somewhat, the socioeconomic classes in the U.S. have always been much more clearly delineated and separated from each other geographically than in Canada, and that's reflected in the architecture and neighbourhood layouts.

Okay, I couldn't help cheating: I looked and saw that they're in Sherbrooke, Quebec. Honestly, I would have had a hard time guessing, but in the end I probably would have guessed somewhere in the eastern half of Canada containing Quebec and the Maritimes.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Okay, I couldn't help cheating: I looked and saw that they're in Sherbrooke, Quebec.

No problem, I expected you to indulge your curiosity after you were done with your short blind analysis. Before, it would have been cheating... but it looks like you didn't

Thanks, by the way. One last one, if you don't mind? Here:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4072629,-...1!3m2!1sdWEANttTzAdLyS0S0rwQAg!2e0?hl=en

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

And in the U.S. you never have small apartment complexes or semi-detached houses on the same street as grand mansions.

Funny that you'd say that. I'm not trying to prove you wrong (I would actually at first sight tend to agree with this statement of yours) but one of the US cities that I'm most familiar with happens to have no less than four "grand mansions" surrounded by working class neighborhoods. (Albany; 1- Ten Broeck mansion, 2- Schuyler mansion, 3- van Rensselaer ('Cherry Hill') mansion, 4- Governor mansion)

In at least three cases out of these four, the mansions used to be alone in the middle of a huge plot of land initially, of course... but the city engulfed them eventually.



Interesting observation regarding segregation along class lines; it's true, too. I should point out that Sherbrooke is notorious for having had super weak (or no) urbanistic policies for its first couple centuries of existence... up to fairly recently in fact... you'll have a commie-style 1960s six-plex right in the middle of an otherwise homogeneous Victorian area, etc. Nowadays, it couldn't happen any more. There's some control over what's being built in older areas so it integrates decently.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

You seem to be hammering home the point that they could be "anywhere North America." To a non-North American that's almost certainly true, but to someone from southern Ontario or, say, Arizona or Florida, that's not the case at all.

Most (defined as "over 50%") of the inhabited USA (defined with an arbitrary density threshold) has residential areas that kinda look like that. Northeast, Atlantic, Rust Belt, Midwest. That general style also goes quite a bit south of the Mason-Dixon line IIRC. And IIRC areas of the West Coast too. Just going from memory obviously. Of course Phoenix or Tucson don't have neighborhoods like that. Or if they did, I missed them...

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by rousseau

In spite of the fact that we look more alike than either of us resemble Tokyo, it's still interesting to note how places like Buffalo and Toronto are so very unalike. Nobody would ever confuse the two.

Southern Ontario vs. Great Lakes States is also the point where the Anglo-Canada vs. USA difference is the most dramatic.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by lio45

Unpainted cedar shingle siding is something you can see reasonably frequently in at least Quebec and northern New England (and possibly other areas too but I can't personally vouch for it).

(Incidentally, with my ex last year we almost bought a little house in northern VT that was clad in unpainted cedar shingles.)


It's not exclusive to Vancouver. An entire street of them, maybe (I've never seen that anywhere, now that would indeed be a "rustic"-looking neighborhood) but that's not what that Van picture was.

Unpainted wood in general is more common in Vancouver on many types of buildings (it's a west coast thing), from new condos and commercial buildings to heritage houses. It's use is more varied in style than the unpainted shingles (usually cape cod or shingle style houses) found in most other places. Unpainted or stained cedar siding was common in Vancouver for decades.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Okay, I couldn't help cheating: I looked and saw that they're in Sherbrooke, Quebec. Honestly, I would have had a hard time guessing, but in the end I probably would have guessed somewhere in the eastern half of Canada containing Quebec and the Maritimes.

It's worth noting that three of the four streets in Sherbrooke have anglo names (and the third could have easily been Quebec St. instead of Rue du Québec) which gives you an idea of who built those houses and in what era.

You find this type of housing vernacular (or at least something similar) all over Quebec but a place like Sherbrooke has it way more because of its particular history.

Even 99% francophone cities and towns in Quebec often have at least a street or two like this. The street names in these areas are always Rue King, Rue Queen, Rue Bridge, and never Rue St-Jean-Baptiste, Rue Jacques-Cartier or Rue Dollard-des-Ormeaux.