Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Dartmouth Crossing isn't so bad. A proper comparison for Canadian Tire Centre in Kanata would be if a new Halifax stadium were built out by the airport - That would be ridiculous......

My own personal preference would be somewhere on the northern part of the peninsula, perhaps Windsor Park.

Not really.
Though it was built in a field, ctc was close to a significant residential population. I lived a 10 minute drive from it. The issue was from the east and south Enders who had much longer commutes to a game. There was also significant corporate presences in Kanata. It was still a viable location.

No one is close to the airport here.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Dog with a bone.

The PVSC numbers don't lie.
I have the numbers for Halifax, Dartmouth and Bedford.
Halifax property transfers July - Dec

2010 - 1533
2011 - 1671
2012 - 1715
2013 - 1240
2014 - 1033 (to Dec13)

That's still not a housing "crash," I don't think. Wouldn't that also imply a stark drop in real estate value, as well?

What those numbers looks like is a deceleration in property sales, which can be directly tied to the fact that population growth in 2013 was less than half of a normal years' growth. The surge in 2012 caused by the shipbuilding announcement makes the drop even greater.

Now that population growth in the past four quarters has returned to normal levels, I bet we see numbers back into the mid-1000s for 2015.

Certainly the market got a lot softer, but I think "crash" is hyperbole.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Also, not championing a DC location but purely talking about counterfactual's comparison of potential traffic problems of a stadium downtown (which to me, means on the peninsula) vs Dartmouth Crossing. IMHO, neither sites would be good choices for a stadium.

I think the peninsula would be a good spot for a stadium if there were a suitable site but there doesn't seem to be one so that whole debate is somewhat moot.

I like Shannon Park a lot more than DC because it's more interesting and has more redevelopment potential. Shannon Park plays to the city's advantages a bit more; it's near the water and could have ferry service, the scenery there is more interesting, and it is slightly better in terms of compactness and keeping entertainment-related infrastructure in a small area. As a tourist the prospect of staying in a hotel downtown and taking a ferry out to a stadium sounds pretty interesting and unique as far as Canadian cities go. The bus out to a business park is much less interesting.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the peninsula would be a good spot for a stadium if there were a suitable site but there doesn't seem to be one so that whole debate is somewhat moot.

I like Shannon Park a lot more than DC because it's more interesting and has more redevelopment potential. Shannon Park plays to the city's advantages a bit more; it's near the water and could have ferry service, the scenery there is more interesting, and it is slightly better in terms of compactness and keeping entertainment-related infrastructure in a small area. As a tourist the prospect of staying in a hotel downtown and taking a ferry out to a stadium sounds pretty interesting and unique as far as Canadian cities go. The bus out to a business park is much less interesting.

Agreed.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

There is no significant residential population who would benefit from a stadium in Dartmouth Crossing. Why? Because it's out in the middle of the woods. No one lives beside Dartmouth Crossing. No one can walk there. No one can take a ferry there. Nor take more than a single bus or two connected to there. The largest residential population with the easiest access would be Cole Harbour and surrounding suburbs, but they are not really close either, with a significant commute via several roads, highways, of varying capacity. And for people coming from the rest of Atlantic Canada-- because that would be needed for a team to survive-- Dartmouth Crossing would be a disaster as paid accommodation is almost non-existent beyond a single hotel.

You locate a significant public asset in a place where you can maximize access for the entire population while reducing stress and costs to expend on building or maintaining existing infrastructure. Dartmouth Crossing is terribly connected in our public transit system and when traffic is heavy, is also horribly connected by automobile. It's not located near any significant residential population and its located even further from significant populations located on the western side of HRM -- Bedford, Clayton Park, etc.

Locating where there is significant transit connections, near a high density population-- many of whom can access by transit or by simply walking-- with a significant number of hotels and similar forms of paid accommodation for fans coming from out of time-- that would, obviously, be something downtown, or nearby.

So yes, I think Shannon Park is an arguable case, and you make a good point about land use downtown. I actually agree with this-- use of land (like in Cogswell) would likely be better used for high density residential development. But then, I would want guarantees that such developments would happen, and I'm never convinced of that in HRM where anything over 3 storeys is a major batter. But if so, perhaps Shannon Park is the but a lot of infrastructure is missing there, including bars, restaurants, hotels, etc, to benefit from the "spillover" economics of games.

Dartmouth Crossing is not even arguable. Putting a stadium-- nay, anything public-- in Dartmouth Crossing would be be an idiotic, hair brained idea, which means it's probably at the very top of the list of possible choices for HRM staffers working on this file.

CF, I was going to write a longer reply, but I think the subsequent posts cover it pretty well. I agree on many of your points. I like the idea of Shannon Park lands, and in fact it might actually give a needed boost to the local neighbourhood, which has become a little run down over the years.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

That's still not a housing "crash," I don't think. Wouldn't that also imply a stark drop in real estate value, as well?

What those numbers looks like is a deceleration in property sales, which can be directly tied to the fact that population growth in 2013 was less than half of a normal years' growth. The surge in 2012 caused by the shipbuilding announcement makes the drop even greater.

Now that population growth in the past four quarters has returned to normal levels, I bet we see numbers back into the mid-1000s for 2015.

Certainly the market got a lot softer, but I think "crash" is hyperbole.

OK, maybe not a crash but a very substantial drop 25 - 33% over two years. And the numbers are total transfers. I have not taken out the transfers at a price of $0 and transfers at well below assessment value all of which now comprise up to one third of all transactions.
Stricter lending criteria have significantly affected the market and therefore the effect of population growth cannot be counted on reviving the market.
I expect banks to be even more wary of mortgage financing in the next 12-18 months; profits are static and the economy is in unknown territory.

[ns_kid]

At an event downtown this morning (announcing federal, provincial and municipal money for a wastewater treatment project in Aerotech Park), Peter McKay took the opportunity to list all the major new developments underway -- with federal help -- in HRM. He then hinted that "across the harbour" maybe we'd soon be seeing construction of a new stadium.

Think he was trying to tell us something? (It soon will be an election year after all...)

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

CF, I was going to write a longer reply, but I think the subsequent posts cover it pretty well. I agree on many of your points. I like the idea of Shannon Park lands, and in fact it might actually give a needed boost to the local neighbourhood, which has become a little run down over the years.

Right back at you, Mark. Agree with many of your points too; and yeah, I can definitely see Shannon Park as a legitimate site and location.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Empire

Source: youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvDZ4MeGqLg

Shannon Park could be modelled after Lansdowne Park. This is no doubt what Mayor Savage has in mind.

Add a couple more residential towers, hotel, boardwalk c/w shops, ferry terminal and transit hub-bus-rail and you have Shannon Stadium Park.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Empire

Shannon Park could be modelled after Lansdowne Park. This is no doubt what Mayor Savage has in mind.

I don't think there is any doubt that Shannon is the optimal location for a complex of this size.

Just for purposes of visualization, I'm reproducing a graphic posted earlier showing the footprint of Lansdowne superimposed on a same-scale rendering of Shannon Park. It fits almost perfectly within the triangle formed by Princess Margaret Blvd./Iroquois Dr., Nootka Avenue and the railway corridor.



Also just for comparison, I noted in another thread that Shannon's 82 acres exceeds the 74 acres occupied by Seattle Center, that city's wonderous monorail-connected precinct that includes a 12,000 seat stadium, 17,000 seat arena, 3000 seat concert hall and numerous theatres, museums, galleries, restaurants and shops.

The Shannon lands give Halifax the opportunity to do something that is truly meaningful and unique to this city, serving as both an economic driver and an enhancement to our quality of life.

[halifaxboyns]

Correct me if I'm wrong NS_Kid, but doesn't Landsdowne Park have no mixed use around it or very limited opportunity for it? I am not fully aware of the long range plan - hence my question.

Shannon Park creates a very unique opportunity that while it could have the stadium; it could also have around the stadium a variety of mixed use buildings (residential/commercial) to help add population. I'm showing my bias that I think SP is the spot I would select if it were my decision to make - but my concern is that I wouldn't want the stadium to be the only thing there.

Ideally - I'd like to see a 4 lane treed boulevard run around the stadium with a nice public realm (sidewalk, street lights with banners and a plaza) with some mixed use buildings and 'fake' parkades (put commercial units in front of the parking garages so you can't see them) and then on the water edge have more mixed use residential buildings with commercial at grade and a board walk. All of this would then be connected to the a high speed ferry terminal and a plaza adjacent to it to commemorate the history of the site (early settlers, DND use as military housing). I'd love to also build a streetcar from the Dartmouth Bridge terminal down Windmill Road that would go along the main street of the new SP and wrap up around into BIO and loop back around at Wallace Heights.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Correct me if I'm wrong NS_Kid, but doesn't Landsdowne Park have no mixed use around it or very limited opportunity for it? I am not fully aware of the long range plan - hence my question.

Shannon Park creates a very unique opportunity that while it could have the stadium; it could also have around the stadium a variety of mixed use buildings (residential/commercial) to help add population. I'm showing my bias that I think SP is the spot I would select if it were my decision to make - but my concern is that I wouldn't want the stadium to be the only thing there.

Yes, Lansdowne is a mixed-use development that includes 360,000 square feet of retail space, 100,000 square feet of commercial space, a 10-screen Cineplex theatre and 280 residential units (condos and townhouses), in addition to the stadium, arena, exhibition hall and considerable green space. A hotel was originally proposed but I'm not sure that's still on the table.

I agree with you, halifaxboyns. I think the Shannon lands offer Halifax a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to repurpose underutilized land for a significant public purpose. It is the best available parcel of land in the city centre for such redevelopment, with the side benefit of revitalizing a tired old Dartmouth neighbourhood. Located just off a major arterial highway and an active railway corridor, it also offers the best access to existing transportation infrastructure of any site in the core.

Consider that at more than 80 acres the Shannon site is roughly the size of the Rogers Centre/CityPlace lands in Toronto and the Ottawa Lansdowne Park lands put together.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

libraries and rec centers get used more then 11 days of the year.

I have no problem with Halifax building a CFL caliber stadium, but someone needs to come up with a plan on how to use it more then the number of Days there are CFL Home games. Its a waste of money to build something that is unused 90% of the time.

It is only a waste of money if it does not produce enough revenue to cover its annual costs. Most professional football stadiums stay empty 95% of the time, but they produce enough revenue on those days when it is full to justify the cost of having the stadium. Besides this stadium could be used for a few concerts, community events, soccer matches, community sports.... to gain added value to the community. Adding a bubble over the field for community usage during the winter does not bring in any additional revenue, but it does add to the value it supplies to the community.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

And so ends the great Suburban Sports Stadium Out In The Middle Of Nowhere Experiment (tm):

http://ottawacitizen.com/sports/hockey/nhl/1210-sens-lebreton



This is a great story for a few reasons.

First, it should kill any idea that any sports stadium should be somewhere in the HRM suburbs. No to Dartmouth Crossing. I'd even suggest Shannon Park is just as bad of an idea. For a sports franchise to make money, and to be successful, you need to have the sports stadium downtown. Ottawa experimented with Kanata, and it's been a traffic-nightmare-attendance-killing-disaster.


In Toronto, the TTC is never busier or more packed than on a Sunday for a BlueJays game. Rivals 8am Monday morning mass foot traffic to work.

This is generally true of baseball stadiums and sports arenas that play a large number of home games, but it does not apply to football stadiums that are only used 9-10 times per year. True, some football stadiums are right downtown, but even the NFL has stadiums way out from downtown (Buffalo, New England, Met Life Stadium, Washington, Dallas, San Francisco, Phoenix.....that are very successful. The truth is that a football stadium can be placed downtown or in the suburbs (wherever there is enough land) and be just as successful at either location.

[hokus83]

Originally Posted by Welkin

This is generally true of baseball stadiums and sports arenas that play a large number of home games, but it does not apply to football stadiums that are only used 9-10 times per year. True, some football stadiums are right downtown, but even the NFL has stadiums way out from downtown (Buffalo, New England, Met Life Stadium, Washington, Dallas, San Francisco, Phoenix.....that are very successful. The truth is that a football stadium can be placed downtown or in the suburbs (wherever there is enough land) and be just as successful at either location.

San Francisco stadium is right in San Jose, it has a population of 998,537, hardly the outskirts. and the Buffalo stadium is a 10 minute drive from the city center. I'm sure all the other blow your theory out of the water as well

[TheNovaScotian]

Shannon Park is 10 minutes from the downtown...
What he's trying to get at is at, is that we'll find reasons to use the facility. Look at all of these other successful examples. Would these stadiums still operate if there wasn't uses for them in so many other cities. Do we think the people of Halifax are so different from all these other cities that it won't work here?
Sports entertainment is a Trillion dollar industry we seem to want no part of in this city. From the CWG bid and to this day.
We seem to miss the real advantages and just balk at the cost.

[Keith P.]

The arguments against a stadium, both in terms of cost and need/usage, have been severely weakened by the Central Library, which should have had similar opposition n both fronts but which proceeded anyway. There seems to be a "cultural elite" sort of attitude driving public spending decisions right now in the city. However, aside from the need to recover from the crushing cost of the library over time, there seems little reason to oppose a stadium project now given that Halifax has demonstrated that cost of public facilities is really not a valid argument any longer.

[c-way-dude]

Considering the size of the HRM, and the fact that many books are now produced in a digital format, the library was not a good use of money. It would have been far more sensible to invest in satellite branches. It would have been more cost effective, and the result would have been closer access for the majority of citizens.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by hokus83

San Francisco stadium is right in San Jose, it has a population of 998,537, hardly the outskirts. and the Buffalo stadium is a 10 minute drive from the city center. I'm sure all the other blow your theory out of the water as well

IIRC, the new 49er's stadium is actually in Santa Clara, west of San Jose. The only way you are going to get from downtown Buffalo to the Bills stadium in Orchard Park in 10 minutes is if you go by helicopter.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by hokus83

San Francisco stadium is right in San Jose, it has a population of 998,537, hardly the outskirts. and the Buffalo stadium is a 10 minute drive from the city center. I'm sure all the other blow your theory out of the water as well

Are you kidding me or do you just go around making moronic statements? Spend a little time on Google and see just how far from downtown San Francisco is from Santa Clara, Arlington from downtown Dallas, Landover is from downtown Washington, DC, East Rutherford is from downtown NYC and so on. By the way, Orchard Park is not 10 minutes from downtown Buffalo even if you are speeding at 3 am.

It is false to believe that a modern football stadium, that is used 10 times a year, is only best served by locating it downtown. Only four NFL stadiums were place on virgin downtown land and two of those (Houston and Detroit) are multipurpose domed stadiums that are a lot more than just football stadiums. Only Charlotte and Nashville built downtown stadiums where no stadium previously existed. In the past, downtown stadiums and their dead seas of parking lots have been part of massive urban redevelopments or rebuilds of stadiums that were built downtown decades before the advancement of personal transportation. In the CFL, Regina, Hamilton and Ottawa built on existing sites and Winnipeg built outside the downtown core. Halifax has no existing site and I know of no large blighted industrial site downtown where the land would be best served by a football stadium. If Halifax ever builds a stadium, it is most likely going to be outside of downtown and probably at Shannon Park or Dartmouth Crossing.