Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

One of the downtown plans there, incidentally, is a stadium, which there's plenty of room for due to all the surface parking. The city has sunk insane quantities of money into it, and there's a lot of controversy over whether it's a good use of downtown real estate.

I think that you are referring to the new hockey arena which is under construction - http://www.rogersplace.com/. I don't think there are plans to replace Commonwealth Stadium - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Stadium_%28Edmonton%29

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

I have a problem trying to understand how a stadium equates to a transit system. They are so different from each other.
I understand discussing transit in the same discussion as roads, bicycles, bridges, freeways, the movement of goods, services and people.
One's life can be improved because they spend 5 minutes less time getting to where they are going. Not really life changing unless one lives a very simple life. One rides a street car rather than a bus? Not such a big deal.
On the other hand we also need to talk about libraries, museums, stadiums, aquariums, sports facilities, and other public spaces.
If we never build any of these facilities, why do we need transit if there is no place to go. These are the spaces that create a great city and people want to visit.
A century ago it was exciting to go to NYC and ride the subway but that is not much of an attraction today.

I agree with your comment. A stadium is a quality of life issue. In my opinion, the only connection between a stadium and public transit is that a stadium should be located close to good public transit routes.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I agree with your comment. A stadium is a quality of life issue. In my opinion, the only connection between a stadium and public transit is that a stadium should be located close to good public transit routes.

You don't think good mass public transit is a quality of life issue? Commuters would probably disagree.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

As Someone123 says, it's not a zero-sum situation—we can have a stadium AND an improved transit system.

But as Counterfactual says, even within the large scope of a municipal budget, there are limitations and priorities have to be made. He was suggesting that IF it came down to it, he'd prefer a transit expansion. As would I.

But anyway, a transit system isn't about hopping on a subway for novelty value, or to have streetcars rather than buses (though the former's capacity is much higher). It's about enabling residents and visitors to move through the city with more flexibility, speed and freedom, without a private car. A better transit system will further urbanize the city.

I agree with this.

And yes, it shouldn't be a matter of either-or, so this isn't even a debate, IMHO.

[hokus83]

I think it should be a matter either-or other things though.I'd much rather see an Aquarium on the waterfront or a new art gallery, performing arts centre, new museums . Stadium would be the very bottom list of thing I'd like to see in this town that would be nice to have.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by hokus83

I think it should be a matter either-or other things though.I'd much rather see an Aquarium on the waterfront or a new art gallery, performing arts centre, new museums . Stadium would be the very bottom list of thing I'd like to see in this town that would be nice to have.

I'm talking it shouldn't be either-or regarding stadium vs transit. As mentioned above they serve different purposes and funding can be drawn from different sources.

For my personal tastes, I'd rather see a new performing arts centre with excellent acoustics for concerts, etc. over and above a stadium. The Metro... errr... Scotiabank Centre has long been known for poor acoustics for concerts, though it is improved a little over the original configuration it still leaves a lot to be desired. There was a long-standing joke about the Metro Centre, that a concert in the Metro Centre ends 10 minutes after the band stops playing...

[hokus83]

I just don't understand the strong push for a stadium that serves little benefit to the city just so we can have a dumb CFL team that 80% of the population wouldn't give a flying flip about,

[ILoveHalifax]

Survey says the city wants a stadium and a CFL team.

[counterfactual]

And so ends the great Suburban Sports Stadium Out In The Middle Of Nowhere Experiment (tm):

http://ottawacitizen.com/sports/hockey/nhl/1210-sens-lebreton

For decades, many have decried the current arena’s Kanata location as inconvenient, if not a downright barrier to attendance...

...Still, when pressed about the possibility of a hockey arena, the foreign affairs minister said, “I’ve travelled quite a bit and I’ve never seen a major sports arena in the middle of nowhere.”

It’s not a huge surprise that the Senators are looking as if they are moving ahead with an application for a major redevelopment project at LeBreton. Senators owner Eugene Melnyk has always said that the franchise needed non-hockey revenue in order to thrive. The original Senators owners wanted to make the current arena the centrepiece of a new commercial development, a controversial plan that never materialized, rebuffing the advice of then-councillors — including Jim Watson, Diane Holmes and Jacquelin Holzman, who was mayor at the time and is now an NCC director.

Building an arena not just in a more central location, but right on the new LRT line — LeBreton Flats will be served by the new Pimisi Station — could attract more people to the games. The NCC has called for a redevelopment plan that “builds on the investment in the Confederation Line,” which this surely would

This is a great story for a few reasons.

First, it should kill any idea that any sports stadium should be somewhere in the HRM suburbs. No to Dartmouth Crossing. I'd even suggest Shannon Park is just as bad of an idea. For a sports franchise to make money, and to be successful, you need to have the sports stadium downtown. Ottawa experimented with Kanata, and it's been a traffic-nightmare-attendance-killing-disaster.

Second, this also shows why *first* building a world class LRT system-- as Ottawa has been doing-- before building a major sports stadium and attracting a major sports franchise will actually *help* the sports stadium and team in the long run. You build mass transit-- like an LRT-- and then you plan around it, and build a stadium on the LRT line. This will drive major attendance windfall that you wouldn't have, when its cars, traffic, congestion.

In Toronto, the TTC is never busier or more packed than on a Sunday for a BlueJays game. Rivals 8am Monday morning mass foot traffic to work.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

And so ends the great Suburban Sports Stadium Out In The Middle Of Nowhere Experiment (tm):

http://ottawacitizen.com/sports/hockey/nhl/1210-sens-lebreton



This is a great story for a few reasons.

First, it should kill any idea that any sports stadium should be somewhere in the HRM suburbs. No to Dartmouth Crossing. I'd even suggest Shannon Park is just as bad of an idea. For a sports franchise to make money, and to be successful, you need to have the sports stadium downtown. Ottawa experimented with Kanata, and it's been a traffic-nightmare-attendance-killing-disaster.

Second, this also shows why *first* building a world class LRT system-- as Ottawa has been doing-- before building a major sports stadium and attracting a major sports franchise will actually *help* the sports stadium and team in the long run. You build mass transit-- like an LRT-- and then you plan around it, and build a stadium on the LRT line. This will drive major attendance windfall that you wouldn't have, when its cars, traffic, congestion.

In Toronto, the TTC is never busier or more packed than on a Sunday for a BlueJays game. Rivals 8am Monday morning mass foot traffic to work.

Canadian Tire Centre is 25km from downtown Ottawa. Shannon Park is 8km from downtown Halifax.

I would like to see the stadium in downtown Halifax but where would you put it?

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Empire

Canadian Tire Centre is 25km from downtown Ottawa. Shannon Park is 8km from downtown Halifax.

I would like to see the stadium in downtown Halifax but where would you put it?

Yeah, it's a tough question. I still wonder about the Cogswell area. Many say it's not large enough-- maybe that's right. I also wonder about CFB Stadacona, which occupies a large chunk of peninsular land-- which includes a big grass sports field-- among other things.

At the very least, I think you could argue that the stadium should be built in a place that it might be serviced by mass transit, if we ever get around to doing that, so movement from downtown to the stadium-- and back-- is fast and cheap.

Would Shannon Park be so serviced? Possibly. I think an LRT line that ran along the tracks around the harbour from Woodside Ferry terminal to downtown would be a great LRT track and could bring people to Shannon Park. You don't want to lose all the additional benefits from sporting events because there are no businesses, restaurants, etc, around Shannon Park. There are other locations on the Halifax side too, though not necessarily downtown. There is a chunk of land on the water beside Africville on the Halifax side. Could be an opportunity to make amends for historical wrongs to that community with a new development.

Also, we could say that if we ever build a larger *hockey* stadium to replace the Metro Centre, that it should be somewhere downtown or on the peninsula.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Also, we could say that if we ever build a larger *hockey* stadium to replace the Metro Centre, that it should be somewhere downtown or on the peninsula.

I think if/when the time comes for a new arena, a case could be made to redevelop the forum. It does (IMO) have historical value but if we get to the point where we legitimately need a new arena for functional reasons (I can't really see this happening unless there's potential for an NHL team, or Canadian basketball really takes off in an unprecedented way) then I think a "New Forum" would be more palatable.

As for a stadium, I agree that transit options need to be in place, but I don't necessarily agree that it needs to be "right downtown". As long as it's easily accessible by transit (and realistically, by car from people coming from out of town), and there's some plan to develop the surrounding areas if they don't already have a strong residential/retail/entertainment use, it should work fine. Calgary's stadium isn't really downtown (it's at U of C, I think), and Winnipeg's is in a semi-industrial area near the edge of the city; neither seem to have the problems that Ottawa's Scotiabank Place have (which is an arena, not a stadium). The biggest problem with SP's location isn't just that it's not convenient for downtown residents to get to, but that it's not even convenient for most suburbanites to get to. Its location is more equivalent to the east end of Cole Harbour or somewhere like Timberlea than it is to Shannon Park.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

First, it should kill any idea that any sports stadium should be somewhere in the HRM suburbs. No to Dartmouth Crossing. I'd even suggest Shannon Park is just as bad of an idea. For a sports franchise to make money, and to be successful, you need to have the sports stadium downtown. Ottawa experimented with Kanata, and it's been a traffic-nightmare-attendance-killing-disaster.

You're kidding, right?

Having lived there at the time, I have no problem agreeing that Kanata was a mistake for the construction of the Paladium/Corel Centre/Scotiabank Place/Canadian Tire Parts Dept/Insert Name Here Arena.

Dartmouth Crossing and Shannon Park are not Kanata and you're being disingenous to suggest they are.

Downtown (Barrington at Spring Garden) to Shannon is an 11 minute drive; 15 minutes to Dartmouth Crossing. Eastern Passage (Cow Bay at Caldwell) to Shannon is 21 minutes; to Dartmouth Crossing 20 minutes. Spryfield is only 17 minutes, as is Beaverbank.

This is a far cry from Kanata, which is 20 minutes from the downtown core -- almost twice as far -- and 30 minutes from the eastern suburbs (Orleans).

You make reference to the Rogers Centre in Toronto, which exists only because CN had vast amounts of surplus land to offer up for its construction. In Halifax no such parcel of vacant land exists any closer to the core than Shannon Park, easily accessible from the 100-series highway network and directly on an active rail corridor.

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by hokus83

I just don't understand the strong push for a stadium that serves little benefit to the city just so we can have a dumb CFL team that 80% of the population wouldn't give a flying flip about,

So if 80% of the people don't want a Library or a rec centre, you don't build those either?

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

You're kidding, right?

Having lived there at the time, I have no problem agreeing that Kanata was a mistake for the construction of the Paladium/Corel Centre/Scotiabank Place/Canadian Tire Parts Dept/Insert Name Here Arena.

Dartmouth Crossing and Shannon Park are not Kanata and you're being disingenous to suggest they are.

Downtown (Barrington at Spring Garden) to Shannon is an 11 minute drive; 15 minutes to Dartmouth Crossing. Eastern Passage (Cow Bay at Caldwell) to Shannon is 21 minutes; to Dartmouth Crossing 20 minutes. Spryfield is only 17 minutes, as is Beaverbank.

This is a far cry from Kanata, which is 20 minutes from the downtown core -- almost twice as far -- and 30 minutes from the eastern suburbs (Orleans).

You make reference to the Rogers Centre in Toronto, which exists only because CN had vast amounts of surplus land to offer up for its construction. In Halifax no such parcel of vacant land exists any closer to the core than Shannon Park, easily accessible from the 100-series highway network and directly on an active rail corridor.

here is why the Ottawa Arena is where it is, from the guy who built in
http://www.eqjournal.org/?p=261 Say what you will about the location, but they manage to fill it most nights.

years ago it was a rink in a field, the area now has more amenities, and better transit connections so you can go for dinner and still make a game in a reasonable time frame.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by cjones2451

So if 80% of the people don't want a Library or a rec centre, you don't build those either?

libraries and rec centers get used more then 11 days of the year.

I have no problem with Halifax building a CFL caliber stadium, but someone needs to come up with a plan on how to use it more then the number of Days there are CFL Home games. Its a waste of money to build something that is unused 90% of the time.

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

libraries and rec centers get used more then 11 days of the year.

I have no problem with Halifax building a CFL caliber stadium, but someone needs to come up with a plan on how to use it more then the number of Days there are CFL Home games. Its a waste of money to build something that is unused 90% of the time.

You use it for all levels of football, Highs chool, University, CFL, concerts / festivals. If the demand is there Monster trucks, moto cross.
Could even set it up for an outdoor game with the Mooseheads.
You can also install one of these in the winter and it can get use in the winter too for soccer etc.

[hokus83]

Originally Posted by cjones2451

You use it for all levels of football, Highs chool, University, CFL, concerts / festivals. If the demand is there Monster trucks, moto cross.
Could even set it up for an outdoor game with the Mooseheads.
You can also install one of these in the winter and it can get use in the winter too for soccer etc.

Feilds costs millions to lay down, going to rip one up and lay down a new track every time you have those. You're asking for a operatiing cost of 10's of millions a year to have those

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by hokus83

Feilds costs millions to lay down, going to rip one up and lay down a new track every time you have those. You're asking for a operatiing cost of 10's of millions a year to have those

It should Field Turf, not grass. You put the bubble down, secure it, pump air and heat in and there you go

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

You're kidding, right?

Having lived there at the time, I have no problem agreeing that Kanata was a mistake for the construction of the Paladium/Corel Centre/Scotiabank Place/Canadian Tire Parts Dept/Insert Name Here Arena.

Dartmouth Crossing and Shannon Park are not Kanata and you're being disingenous to suggest they are.

Downtown (Barrington at Spring Garden) to Shannon is an 11 minute drive; 15 minutes to Dartmouth Crossing. Eastern Passage (Cow Bay at Caldwell) to Shannon is 21 minutes; to Dartmouth Crossing 20 minutes. Spryfield is only 17 minutes, as is Beaverbank.

This is a far cry from Kanata, which is 20 minutes from the downtown core -- almost twice as far -- and 30 minutes from the eastern suburbs (Orleans).

You make reference to the Rogers Centre in Toronto, which exists only because CN had vast amounts of surplus land to offer up for its construction. In Halifax no such parcel of vacant land exists any closer to the core than Shannon Park, easily accessible from the 100-series highway network and directly on an active rail corridor.

I wouldn't throw around accusations of others being "disingenuous" until you know what you're talking about. Which you don't.

Dartmouth Crossing is merely 15 minutes drive from downtown? Pfft. Yeah, maybe at 3am on a Sunday morning. Any other time, it's 20+ minutes. Hell, it often takes 15min to drive the length of Barrington or Spring Garden on some days, depending on traffic and stop lights.

Protip: land forms, traffic routes, and road/highway infrastructure significantly impact travel times.

Dartmouth Crossing is accessible from Peninsular Halifax via two bottleneck bridges. The MacDonald Bridge, closer to downtown, leads onto bidirectional two lane roads, with multiple traffic stops, traffic lights, pedestrian crossing, pedestrian crossing lights, etc, along the way. And for areas west of Halifax, including Bedford, it's either that same bottleneck or around the harbour on a Trunk route, also with multiple traffic stops, until you eventually merge onto the 111, or you take a stop-and-start route through Akerley Blvd.

Anyone who has ever driven anywhere along these routes on an evening for a Moosehead's game will attest to the brutal commute these routes can entail.

By contrast, Kanata is 22km away but is accessible *on a freeway*, the 417.

In fact, the 417 within Ottawa is an EIGHT LANE commuter highway and remains an EIGHT LANE FREEWAY, the entire route from downtown Ottawa to Kanata. Also, importantly, the route is straight. Period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_417

The Queenways portion of the 417 between Ottawa and Kanata even has dedicated transit lanes. And yet, despite this far superior infrastructure, Kanata was still a traffic disaster, such that years later, the Senators now want the hell out.

Pretending that Dartmouth Crossing is so much more accessible than Kanata is a hilariously wrong.