Canada's Panamerica Identity

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

With the OP, I was thinking that soul-searching banter and thought among the chattering classes in Quebec is about the dichotomy between Quebec's "américanité" (like America) and its "francité" (like France).

I'd love to learn more about this. Got any links to news stories or forum talk related to this?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I'm honestly curious: do you really see hundreds upon hundreds of pickups obviously packed with hunting gear on the 400 just north of Toronto on certain Fridays in the fall? Does every gas station north of Toronto have corn and other hunting stuff stacked all over the pumps? Is hunting really the talk of the town in the suburban fringes of the GTA?

I just don't think so. I have this really strong impression that there's a vast difference in scale between southern Ontario and southern Michigan when it comes to how much hunting is a part of the respective cultures, and the evidence I've seen seems to confirm this.

On the other hand, I know it's true that you more readily notice certain things in other places during your temporary visits than you do in the place where you live, so I'd really like to see the evidence that I'm wrong on this.

I know this question wasn't for me, but I'll answer it anyway. My general impression is that hunting is a far bigger deal in the US than it is in Canada. Whenever I go to the US, particularly in the fall, it's hard not to notice hunting. The newspapers have pages devoted to it (particularly in less populated, "outdoorsy" states and not in east/west coast cities although very much present in south coast cities), flyers have page upon page of guns and accessories, there are massive Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops type places in any city of significance, you see hunting segments on the local TV... it's inescapable.

Contrast that with Canada where hunting comes across as way more of a niche pursuit. It's not something you notice even in a city like Winnipeg, which is surrounded by good hunting areas. So many of the hunters I encounter are rural people and Americans who come up to hunt... urbanites who hunt are rarer than hens' teeth here.

Fishing is a big deal down there too, but the passion for it here rivals the enthusiasm you see down in the US.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by esquire

I know this question wasn't for me, but I'll answer it anyway. My general impression is that hunting is a far bigger deal in the US than it is in Canada. Whenever I go to the US, particularly in the fall, it's hard not to notice hunting. The newspapers have pages devoted to it (particularly in less populated, "outdoorsy" states and not in east/west coast cities although very much present in south coast cities), flyers have page upon page of guns and accessories, there are massive Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops type places in any city of significance, you see hunting segments on the local TV... it's inescapable.

Contrast that with Canada where hunting comes across as way more of a niche pursuit. It's not something you notice even in a city like Winnipeg, which is surrounded by good hunting areas. So many of the hunters I encounter are rural people and Americans who come up to hunt... urbanites who hunt are rarer than hens' teeth here.

Fishing is a big deal down there too, but the passion for it here rivals the enthusiasm you see down in the US.

If you live somewhere like northern Ontario, even in the cities, a large number of people are hunters. But it doesn't seem to be popular among the largest cities in Canada (such as the GTA).

[isaidso]

NAFTA has shifted Canadian attention to the America beyond Canada and the United States. It's inevitable that NAFTA and our gaze will expand further south as the rest of America grows wealthier and more intertwined. Culturally, Copa America and the Pan American Games will grow in importance in the long term and the use of Spanish in Canada will increase.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by isaidso

the use of Spanish in Canada will increase.

I seriously doubt that this will happen to any major degree within the next 30 years.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Hmmm. My U.S. chain store is bigger than your U.S. chain store. This could have legs.

Hmmm, I'm insecure because my fishing shop is not the biggest anymore.

I wasn't bragging. I wish it wasn't built.

[Trevor3]

Originally Posted by esquire

I know this question wasn't for me, but I'll answer it anyway. My general impression is that hunting is a far bigger deal in the US than it is in Canada. Whenever I go to the US, particularly in the fall, it's hard not to notice hunting. The newspapers have pages devoted to it (particularly in less populated, "outdoorsy" states and not in east/west coast cities although very much present in south coast cities), flyers have page upon page of guns and accessories, there are massive Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops type places in any city of significance, you see hunting segments on the local TV... it's inescapable.

Contrast that with Canada where hunting comes across as way more of a niche pursuit. It's not something you notice even in a city like Winnipeg, which is surrounded by good hunting areas. So many of the hunters I encounter are rural people and Americans who come up to hunt... urbanites who hunt are rarer than hens' teeth here.

Fishing is a big deal down there too, but the passion for it here rivals the enthusiasm you see down in the US.

There are differences to be sure, but I think once you leave the big cities in Canada there is a substantial hunting culture. The biggest difference is in guns and ammo, that in and of itself is a hobby in the US. In Canada it's more about the animal you're after than the weapon you use. American hunters seem to spend much of their time coddling their gun and talking about prepping for it, gun maintenance, talking about what weapon they used on a particular hunt, etc... Canadian hunters talk about the animals they shot, the place they went, the one that got away, the trip out with the guys, etc... We get a lot of American hunters who come up this way to hunt during moose season and that's the difference I've seen.

We don't have the big hunting/fishing shops, but every Canadian Tire has a large department devoted to it. Every town of a couple thousand people has a shop that deals in ammunition and hunting supplies. For instance we have a store that sells ammunition and hunting supplies, sex toys, lingerie, drug paraphanalia (bongs and such), and does tattoos and piercings, I kid you not that is one store.

I think this might speak to the population density of the country. The US is spread out all over and even rural areas are often not that far from major cities, so it's not hard to trip into Pittsburgh to go to Cabela's. Someone from Kapuskasing isn't exactly a quick drive from Winnipeg, Ottawa or Toronto. I just feel like our major cities in Canada have less influence on people in rural areas than they do in the US.

A weekend morning on NTV out here will have a bunch of hunting and fishing shows like Fish'n Canada or the Newfoundland Sportsman. There are a couple others on Eastlink Cable out of Nova Scotia as well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I'd love to learn more about this. Got any links to news stories or forum talk related to this?

Most anything I would be able to find on this topic would be in French.

Anyway, one thing I find interesting about it is that there is no ''canadianité" that is ever discussed. As if it was irrelevant, or at the very least, was simply covered under ''américanité" and did not warrant its own ''ité".

[MolsonExport]

How about the UK's Eurasian identity?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I mean, look at the site: the four "pro staff" at the shop are all fishing pros. No hunting pros are listed. But the various stores in the US that I checked all have hunting "pros" or guides as well as fishing ones.
.

Ir could also very easily be something other than a lesser lack of interest in hunting. For example, the Canadian stores might have less leeway with respect to firearms, so that might lead to less emphasis on that aspect of their business.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Trevor3

The biggest difference is in guns and ammo, that in and of itself is a hobby in the US. In Canada it's more about the animal you're after than the weapon you use. American hunters seem to spend much of their time coddling their gun and talking about prepping for it, gun maintenance, talking about what weapon they used on a particular hunt, etc... Canadian hunters talk about the animals they shot, the place they went, the one that got away, the trip out with the guys, etc....

This is a very good observation. I have a number of friends who hunt, and you've described the hunting conversations they have to a T. In fact, I don't think I have ever heard one of them discuss guns at all. At all.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It had traditional ties with Boston and New York, and while it and Canada were part of the British realm, any British Empire ties it had with Canada were probably (someone should correct if I am wrong) were likely with Montreal which happened to be the biggest city in Canada for most of the period, a major port and was also a more "anglo" city then it was today. It also had ties to Halifax.

It's not as interesting as some others, but I think the strongest ties for a very long time (i.e. circa 1700 or earlier) have simply been between Newfoundland and the Maritimes. Shipping went back and forth between the two places and onward to the Northeastern US and the UK, so those were the easiest places to get to. Realistically it's also easy to make the case that there are a heck of a lot more internal similarities in Atlantic Canada, even spanning across Newfoundland provincial borders, than there are with other regions or countries. If you're looking for a place similar to Corner Brook or whatever your safest pick is someplace like Glace Bay, not somewhere farther afield.

Today there are still tons of Newfoundlanders living in the Maritimes and I bet Maritimers are by far the largest group that moves to Newfoundland. This sort of stands to reason since the two areas are right next to each other.

I am not sure what period you're talking about but the idea of Atlantic Canada as a hinterland for cities like Montreal and Toronto is a fairly modern thing. Actually this was a real sticking point for a long time in Atlantic Canada since goods from the UK and US were always cheaper but people there were gradually forced into buying from Central Canada. I doubt Montreal was ever the go-to city for industrial goods or much else before Newfoundland joined Canada, and Toronto became the bigger business centre not long after that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's not as interesting as some others, but I think the strongest ties for a very long time (i.e. circa 1600) have simply been between Newfoundland and the Maritimes. Shipping went back and forth between the two places and onward to the Northeastern US and the UK, so those were the easiest places to get to. Realistically it's also easy to make the case that Atlantic Canada there are a heck of a lot more internal similarities in Atlantic Canada, even spanning across Newfoundland provincial borders, than there are with other regions or countries. If you're looking for a place similar to Corner Brook or whatever your safest pick is someplace like Glace Bay, not Boston or Dublin.

Today there are still tons of Newfoundlanders living in the Maritimes and I bet Maritimers are by far the largest group that moves to Newfoundland. This sort of stands to reason since the two areas are right next to each other.

.

Oh of course. Maritimes-Newfoundland is a given and was and is huge. I assume most people would be aware of that. The ties with New England I talked about are less well-known, at least to people outside the region.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am not sure what period you're talking about but the idea of Atlantic Canada as a hinterland for cities like Montreal and Toronto is a fairly modern thing. Actually this was a real sticking point for a long time in Atlantic Canada since goods from the UK and US were always cheaper but people there were gradually forced into buying from Central Canada. I doubt Montreal was ever the go-to city for industrial goods or much else before Newfoundland joined Canada, and Toronto became the bigger business centre not long after that.

My point was not really to play up Montreal-Newfoundland. My point was that with today's fairly strong Toronto-Newfoundland relationship, it's easy to forget how irrelevant Toronto was to Newfoundland 50 or 60 years ago.

Toronto only began to take on a metropolis role for Newfoundland starting in the 1960s.

[Acajack]

Still with Newfoundland and New England, I've been piecing some numbers together.

Around 1920 there were about 15,000 Newfoundlanders living in the Boston area.

There were close to 5,000 in Cape Breton and less than 3,000 in Halifax.

The highest Newfoundlander population in central Canada was in Montreal with about 2,000. Toronto had just a tad less than Montreal.

But all of the Canadian cities were far behind Boston.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most anything I would be able to find on this topic would be in French.

I can read most French material pretty well. Better than my listening to speech in French.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Anyway, one thing I find interesting about it is that there is no ''canadianité" that is ever discussed. As if it was irrelevant, or at the very least, was simply covered under ''américanité" and did not warrant its own ''ité".

With a nod to the original intent of this thread, can one safely assume that "américanité" doesn't refer to the two continents, i.e. the Americas, but rather refers to the U.S.?

And if it does refer strictly to the U.S., then wow, that's really something. I mean, obviously it's no surprise that Quebec doesn't pay much heed to the rest of Canada, but it's still somewhat jarring to see so many examples of that over and over again.

Why can't we all just get along?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Still with Newfoundland and New England, I've been piecing some numbers together.

Around 1920 there were about 15,000 Newfoundlanders living in the Boston area.

There were close to 5,000 in Cape Breton and less than 3,000 in Halifax.

The highest Newfoundlander population in central Canada was in Montreal with about 2,000. Toronto had just a tad less than Montreal.

But all of the Canadian cities were far behind Boston.

Interesting. The French-Canadian exodus to New England was also very large during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Half of the surnames in mill towns in Massachusetts are French, or at least they used to be before the Latin American influx beginning in the 1960s.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Interesting. The French-Canadian exodus to New England was also very large during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Half of the surnames in mill towns in Massachusetts are French, or at least they used to be before the Latin American influx beginning in the 1960s.

There were several points in history where the number of Canadians moving to the US exceeded the number of total immigrants coming here. This was part of a series of complex convergences that eventually allowed for the door to open to Northern and Eastern European immigrants in the early 20th Century. Interestingly, if you look back at some of the material produced at the time, you can sense a certain relief from some quarters that the high Francophone birthrate was being offset by Francophone emigration ("demographic warfare," or whatever you want to call it, was a very pressing anxiety for the established elite).

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by isaidso

NAFTA has shifted Canadian attention to the America beyond Canada and the United States. It's inevitable that NAFTA and our gaze will expand further south as the rest of America grows wealthier and more intertwined. Culturally, Copa America and the Pan American Games will grow in importance in the long term and the use of Spanish in Canada will increase.

Good post.

What really interest me is what happens when canada becomes more multi-racial, and less multicultural.(as second gen kids tire of their grandparents nonsense)

One thing I noticed in toronto going to caribana festivals etc, was that alot of working classs asians-africans really are attracted to latin culture, because its less work to be multi racial.( there's this idea that cuba-brazil-columbia, represents this fresh slate that canada should be)

As much as some white fella can talk about embracing bollywood or sushi, the reality is a working class kid is far more interested going to a bar and not having their dating options limited by their grandparnets conservatism.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

How about the UK's Eurasian identity?

That would be way off topic, but if you wanted to talk about canada commonwealth or eurasian identity in another thread I'd actually be very interested.