Canada's Panamerica Identity

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We've had at least a couple of Newfoundlanders from different horizons say this on here. Why would you think you know their relationships and affinities better than they do?

It's so obviously exaggerated. Just look at the two cities: they're different with a capital D. Personal affinities and preferences are being extrapolated into generalized similarities.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Comments like this make me wonder how much of rural canada you understand.

Presumably more than you think I do, given my years in living in large cities and small towns, and much in between, in four provinces (two Western, two Central) over 45 years. I will admit no first-hand contact with Newfoundland & Labrador, the sole province I have not visited. On the other hand, one of my closest friends is a Newfoundlander (and he never tires of reminding how distinct people from his home province are from the rest of Canadians...even while holding a certain disdain for the uniqueness of Quebecois culture).

Like others have stated, after a few decades of travelling around the globe, one tends to get a bit of perspective.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I do believe that same question has been asked of you more than a few times as well.

Cute, but my observations are generally behavioural. It's not usually my style to tell people how they should feel. (Even if I might think those feelings are sometimes misguided.)

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by rousseau

It's so obviously exaggerated. Just look at the two cities: they're different with a capital D. Personal affinities and preferences are being extrapolated into generalized similarities.

I suppose had he or they said "Boston is a city we really look up to as Newfoundlanders" or "I really enjoyed my one visit there because there are also a lot of people there who think they're Irish", it would have made more sense. I believe Bostonians would have more awareness of French Canada (or Canada as a French entity) versus even being able to find Nfld. on a map.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

It's so obviously exaggerated. Just look at the two cities: they're different with a capital D. Personal affinities and preferences are being extrapolated into generalized similarities.

I suppose there might be a bit of a city "crush" thing going on (Boston being perceived by some as being more romantic than Toronto), but seriously, prior to 1949 Newfoundland had far fewer ties with Toronto.

It had traditional ties with Boston and New York, and while it and Canada were part of the British realm, any British Empire ties it had with Canada were probably (someone should correct if I am wrong) were likely with Montreal which happened to be the biggest city in Canada for most of the period, a major port and was also a more "anglo" city then it was today. It also had ties to Halifax.

The Toronto-Newfoundland relationship does exist and does have some history, but as far as Toronto being the uncontested metropolis of the larger country that Newfoundland is a part of, I am not sure we can even talk about something that even goes back 50 or 60 years.

It's not as if all of a sudden on April 1, 1949 everything Newfoundland had developed as relationships with other places simply vanished into thin air and was replaced with Toronto and mainland Canada stuff.

[kwoldtimer]

I wonder if we could become closer to Latin America if we traded "O Canada" for a national anthem that sounds like something composed by Gilbert and Sullivan?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I wonder if we could become closer to Latin America if we traded "O Canada" for a national anthem that sounds like something composed by Gilbert and Sullivan?

Were Gilbert and Sullivan Latin American? With names like that, I guess they must have been from Chile!

[esquire]

I'm not sensing any agreement that we share an identity in any significant way with Central and South American countries.

I do remember during the 1999 Pan Am Games here in Winnipeg that a lot of businesses flew the flags of those various nations for a time... haven't seen much presence from Paraguay or Bolivia around these parts ever since.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Were Gilbert and Sullivan Latin American? With names like that, I guess they must have been from Chile!

Are you pulling my leg or are you unfamiliar with Victorian English operettas (poor, deprived child!).

Anyway, many LatAm anthems remind me G&S's "I am the Very Model of a Modern Major-General".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2OcbeGqbpU

[Acajack]

Going with one of the areas I know best, I think one should not underestimate the historic ties of Atlantic Canada with the northeastern U.S. In various respects, including cultural and migratory. This was true not only for Newfoundland (not a part of Canada until 1949) but also the Maritimes which have been part of Canada for almost 150 years.

Prior to the 1960s, it was relatively easy for people from Atlantic Canada to migrate to the U.S. for work. On a practical level, it might have been easier than to go to Ontario as the channels (human and logistical) were already established. So that's where they went. I have one grandparent and numerous great uncles and aunts that worked down in the U.S. at one point. There are several branches of my family that are still down there today. My parents know them but I generally do not.

Also, my extended Atlantic Canadian family members through marriage (including one Newfoundlander) all have family down in the NE States as well.)

Acadia's greatest actress, Viola Léger (La Sagouine), was born of Acadian parents from the Maritimes in 1930 in Worcester, Mass.

Rough-hewn Acadian singer Cayouche is originally from New Brunswick but lived in the Boston area as a child in the 40s and 50s I think. He was even a United States Marine at one point.

Boston actor Matt LeBlanc, who played Joey on Friends, is related to one of my mom's friends from New Brunswick.

And this isn't to mention all of the trade links and also media links. A significant part of my family 60 and older in the Maritimes grew up listening to Boston radio stations, and later TV stations when they came on the air.

As of the 1960s, the borders between the two countries became far less permeable, and transportation links within Canada started to improve as well. With the result that migration from Atlantic Canada to the NE US plummeted. Atlantic Canadians started migrating westwards within Canada. And the ties with the NE US have been slowly fading ever since, though they are not completely gone.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Are you pulling my leg or are you unfamiliar with Victorian English operettas (poor, deprived child!).

Anyway, many LatAm anthems remind me G&S's "I am the Very Model of a Modern Major-General".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2OcbeGqbpU

Pulling your leg about them being Chilean, but I am not really that familiar with their répertoire...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pulling your leg about them being Chilean, but I am not really that familiar with their répertoire...

Keep an eye out for any news of the Savoy Society in Ottawa. They do G&S operettas every year. I think in 2015 it will be "Pirates of Penzance" (1879) - a good introduction for you and your kids! Think of it as an Anglo salute to Offenbach's "Les brigands".

Edit: When I think of it, Offenbach could have written some of those Latin American national anthems as well!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Keep an eye out for any news of the Savoy Society in Ottawa. They do G&S operettas every year. I think in 2015 it will be "Pirates of Penzance" (1879) - a good introduction for you and your kids! Think of it as an Anglo salute to Offenbach's "Les brigands".

Edit: When I think of it, Offenbach could have written some of those Latin American national anthems as well!

Thanks. You reminded me of how much I liked him so I pulled some up on Youtube and am listening to it now.

I wonder if The Pirates of Penzance might not be too advanced English for my kids.

Though they have seen Broadway shows in English and even opera in Italian... so maybe!

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I wonder if we could become closer to Latin America if we traded "O Canada" for a national anthem that sounds like something composed by Gilbert and Sullivan?

When Canada was a little land
It's scape was white and fitting
It's father thought he'd colonise him
To some career profiting
I was alas his governor
And so it fell to my lot
To take and bind this promising land
Apprentice him to this plot.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

Ca-na-da-is-the-ve-y-mod-el-of-a-mod-ern-maj-or-e-co-nom-y
The-na-tion-can-pro-vide-for-its-cit-i-zens-with-its-ag-ro-nom-y
Fu-el-ing-its-growth-on-the-backs-of-less-er-prov-inces
Ca-na-da-is-a-mod-ern-maj-or-e-co-nom-y.

Hey! You're funny!

[kool maudit]

well, anyway, back to the topic i guess: i do not think canada will come to derive a large part of its cultural identity from its place as one of the countries of the north and south american landmass.

it once had an identity as the loyal part of a great empire, but she died. it is now involved with a second love, one that allows it great latitude if few particulars.

it's doing very well by all accounts.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Regarding hunting and fishing in Ontario (and even the southern part of the province), it's definitely a thing there, as evidenced by the fact that Canada's first (perhaps) and largest (likely) Bass Pro Shop Outdoor World is in Vaughan just 8 km from Toronto city limits.

People who report seeing no hunting culture at all in their regions may be having a bit of selection bias.

Sure, it might be less than in many parts of the States and even in southern Ontario.

Or perhaps you're going in the "right" direction for hunters in the U.S. (I-75 N going to the UP is a prime route) but not the right one in Canada. Tryh Highway 400 in the northern suburbs of Toronto going north in the fall for example.

The Bass Pro Shop under construction in Metro Vancouver will be 145,000 square feet, about 13,000 bigger than Vaughn. Absurdly big by Vancouver standards, even out in Tsawassen, and still only half the size of some of the US stores.

My brother is a CBSA officer at the west coast US border and says a lot of Americans come up to hunt and fish. It's a big part of the tourism industry. But most rural Canadian men I know are into it.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Pinion

The Bass Pro Shop under construction in Metro Vancouver will be 145,000 square feet, about 13,000 bigger than Vaughn. Absurdly big by Vancouver standards, even out in Tsawassen, and still only half the size of some of the US stores.

My brother is a CBSA officer at the west coast US border and says a lot of Americans come up to hunt and fish. It's a big part of the tourism industry. But most rural Canadian men I know are into it.

Hmmm. My U.S. chain store is bigger than your U.S. chain store. This could have legs.

[Acajack]

With the OP, I was thinking that soul-searching banter and thought among the chattering classes in Quebec is about the dichotomy between Quebec's "américanité" (like America) and its "francité" (like France).

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Regarding hunting and fishing in Ontario (and even the southern part of the province), it's definitely a thing there, as evidenced by the fact that Canada's first (perhaps) and largest (likely) Bass Pro Shop Outdoor World is in Vaughan just 8 km from Toronto city limits.

People who report seeing no hunting culture at all in their regions may be having a bit of selection bias.

Sure, it might be less than in many parts of the States and even in southern Ontario.

Or perhaps you're going in the "right" direction for hunters in the U.S. (I-75 N going to the UP is a prime route) but not the right one in Canada. Tryh Highway 400 in the northern suburbs of Toronto going north in the fall for example.

Just to prod this a bit further, because I'm curious, and I'm also willing to admit my selection bias.

Hunting and fishing are fundamentally different, right? People go fishing everywhere, and it doesn't involve lethal weapons or potentially dangerous game. At least not in our waters, anyway. I can see how they get linked together as "outdoor sports," but still, the two aren't really in the same league. I can't help but think that the hunting aspect of this massive outdoors shop isn't all that big.

I mean, look at the site: the four "pro staff" at the shop are all fishing pros. No hunting pros are listed. But the various stores in the US that I checked all have hunting "pros" or guides as well as fishing ones.

I don't think I've ever been on the 400 going up north during the fall months. But I still can't help but think that the hunting exodus on the I-75 north in Michigan is orders upon orders of magnitude greater than any equivalent on the 400 going north. I mean, the hundreds of trucks I drove past all had Michigan plates (apparently Pennsylvania is the most hunting-crazy state in the US--they don't much go to other states to hunt). And every single gas station was packed with hunting supplies (yes, I asked at the two we stopped at).

I'm honestly curious: do you really see hundreds upon hundreds of pickups obviously packed with hunting gear on the 400 just north of Toronto on certain Fridays in the fall? Does every gas station north of Toronto have corn and other hunting stuff stacked all over the pumps? Is hunting really the talk of the town in the suburban fringes of the GTA?

I just don't think so. I have this really strong impression that there's a vast difference in scale between southern Ontario and southern Michigan when it comes to how much hunting is a part of the respective cultures, and the evidence I've seen seems to confirm this.

On the other hand, I know it's true that you more readily notice certain things in other places during your temporary visits than you do in the place where you live, so I'd really like to see the evidence that I'm wrong on this.