Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[ninjakafi_81]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Thank you so much!

You're welcome

If these buses come out tomorrow, I'll try riding it and post the experience in this thread. Also I'll probably get a recording as well, so I'll post the link of that video later in this thread as well.

[GlassCity]

that'd be awesome!

[MIPS]

I got out of bed just in time to see that CTV spinning the report around on the late night news. As someone who works on embedded systems I really hate this mentality that because the hardware is not modern it's not capable of doing the work reliably and should be replaced. They make it sound like you'll have an aneurysm if you found out there's still systems in this city still running on Zilog Z80's.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by MIPS

As someone who works on embedded systems I really hate this mentality that because the hardware is not modern it's not capable of doing the work reliably and should be replaced.

Old hardware is fine as long as it keeps working. The biggest issue is finding someone who knows how to deal with it when it fails. That's not such a big deal if it's a black box part that can be replaced as a whole unit, but otherwise it can be expensive to retain staff with specialized knowledge and stock relevant parts or pay for service contracts when the vendor is using pricing to try to move you to newer generations of equipment (in order to make some sales). Or heaven forbid if the vendor no longer exists or had dropped support for your equipment. Ultimately, even if reliability isn't the primary driver, it will still end up being a support vs. replacement cost issue.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Old hardware is fine as long as it keeps working. The biggest issue is finding someone who knows how to deal with it when it fails. That's not such a big deal if it's a black box part that can be replaced as a whole unit, but otherwise it can be expensive to retain staff with specialized knowledge and stock relevant parts or pay for service contracts when the vendor is using pricing to try to move you to newer generations of equipment (in order to make some sales). Or heaven forbid if the vendor no longer exists or had dropped support for your equipment. Ultimately, even if reliability isn't the primary driver, it will still end up being a support vs. replacement cost issue.

Consider that Thales owns the Seltrac technology, and uses the Skytrain in it's marketing, and it's the most popular CBTC being selected.
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/defaul...nt/SelTracBrochure_CBTCSolutions_eng.pdf

Here's an older version:
http://www.tsd.org/cbtc/Suppliers/Alcatel/SelTracBrochure.pdf
(Also has the Skytrain in the marketing)

SELTRAC S 4 0 :
S30 FUNCTIONALITY PLUS...
• Unattended or driver/attended operation including
cab-signaling modes
• Logic or Moving-block technology
• Automatic performance modification
(including speed and station dwell)
• Fully redundant train-to-wayside configurations
• Fully protected bi-directional operation
(requiring no additional hardware)
• Can include solid-state interlocking and remote
switch control
• High availability
• Automatic route setting
• Quick-start reset
• Can include automatic coupling/uncoupling

Gee, this suggests the feature wasn't optional.

Of interest, CBTC only became standardized in like 1999, revised in 2004
http://standards.ieee.org/findstds/standard/1474.1-2004.html

And all the software engineering parts that make up CBTC
http://www.disit.org/axmedis/ee7/00000-e...ee7f21f3-dccf-4f84-90a9-543ecc81e4d1.pdf

Like, I don't know what an upgrade actually involves. Does it involve just a software upgrade, or replacing the VCC's entirely? Does it involve switching from induction loops to WiFi? Are the VOBC's replaced or just the communication parts?

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Consider that Thales owns the Seltrac technology, and uses the Skytrain in it's marketing, and it's the most popular CBTC being selected.
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/defaul...nt/SelTracBrochure_CBTCSolutions_eng.pdf

Here's an older version:
http://www.tsd.org/cbtc/Suppliers/Alcatel/SelTracBrochure.pdf
(Also has the Skytrain in the marketing)


Gee, this suggests the feature wasn't optional.

Of interest, CBTC only became standardized in like 1999, revised in 2004
http://standards.ieee.org/findstds/standard/1474.1-2004.html

And all the software engineering parts that make up CBTC
http://www.disit.org/axmedis/ee7/00000-e...ee7f21f3-dccf-4f84-90a9-543ecc81e4d1.pdf

Like, I don't know what an upgrade actually involves. Does it involve just a software upgrade, or replacing the VCC's entirely? Does it involve switching from induction loops to WiFi? Are the VOBC's replaced or just the communication parts?

Most embedded systems can have new features implemented. By doing a firmware upgrade to the hardware an a software upgrade to the entire system.

The only time a hardware upgrade is usually needed is when its processing power is too slow to be able to handle the new features.

An auto restart feature should be a software upgrade.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Of interest, CBTC only became standardized in like 1999, revised in 2004
http://standards.ieee.org/findstds/standard/1474.1-2004.html

Contracts were probably signed before that for construction of the Millennium Line (which opened in 2002).

Note that Thales' predecessor was Alcatel.

[tybuilding]

TransLink announces it will adopt all 20 recommendations after transit expert’s SkyTrain review

TransLink has announced it will adopt all 20 recommendations made by an independent transportation expert after two failures in SkyTrain service left thousands of commuters stranded on the elevated platforms this past summer.


The changes, which will include the installation of emergency power "redundancies," are expected to cost the regional transportation company $71 million.

However, $30 million of that will be spent on improving communication with riders when the system is experiencing any problems and suggest alternate routes.

[MIPS]

I predict that we'll see $3 single zone fares in the next five years thanks to all this.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Anyone have a quick photo of what it looks like?

On the bus stop at VCC-Clark station (taken by me, this morning):

[officedweller]

Shouldn't that sign say "emergency" or something to indicate that it's not a regularly scheduled service (i.e. like WCE Train Bus?)

[Meraki]

I don't believe "Bus Bridge" is used in any normal service.

I also don't expect most of the general public to seek out this sign when there are SkyTrain problems. Perhaps with a giant LED sign saying "NO SKYTRAIN, TAKE BUS HERE" that lights up along with closed station gates... That would probably cover 50% of passengers.

People don't look at signs, they don't pay attention to alerts. The best way of managing these incidents is having STA's on scene informing and controlling the crowds. I support the recent report's recommendations of placing STAs in hi-vis vests and having megaphones. Most passengers are going to stand there and be angry,curse you to the deepest pits of hell, but at least you can help the ones who are willing to listen to alternative arrangements.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Meraki

I don't believe "Bus Bridge" is used in any normal service.

I also don't expect most of the general public to seek out this sign when there are SkyTrain problems. Perhaps with a giant LED sign saying "NO SKYTRAIN, TAKE BUS HERE" that lights up along with closed station gates... That would probably cover 50% of passengers.

People don't look at signs, they don't pay attention to alerts. The best way of managing these incidents is having STA's on scene informing and controlling the crowds. I support the recent report's recommendations of placing STAs in hi-vis vests and having megaphones. Most passengers are going to stand there and be angry,curse you to the deepest pits of hell, but at least you can help the ones who are willing to listen to alternative arrangements.

The most telling problem with communication on transit is that there is no way to tell important information from transient information.

Like those LCD screens on the platforms SHOULD have that info, but they don't. The LED arrays are always saying something about elevators or escalators are out of service somewhere. How much effort would it take to have those video screens interrupted every time the PA's announce something to display the same message as text for 2 minutes?

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by dpogue

On the bus stop at VCC-Clark station (taken by me, this morning):

I saw this at the main-science world station area and I was curious what it meant.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by Kisai

The most telling problem with communication on transit is that there is no way to tell important information from transient information.

Like those LCD screens on the platforms SHOULD have that info, but they don't. The LED arrays are always saying something about elevators or escalators are out of service somewhere. How much effort would it take to have those video screens interrupted every time the PA's announce something to display the same message as text for 2 minutes?

The video screens are not managed by SkyTrain, so they have no control over the content being displayed. That's entirely up to TransLink and Lamar advertising.

SkyTrain control should be able to push a message out to the LED platform boards, but that's probably lower priority than coordinating staff over the radio and phoning CMBC to set up a bus bridge.

[Gordon]

Translink should be able pump out what ever info it needs in the case of emergency. The platform LED boards need to be updated the elevated station platform boards are only visible within 8 - 10 feet away if it is bright out side.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Kisai

The most telling problem with communication on transit is that there is no way to tell important information from transient information.

Like those LCD screens on the platforms SHOULD have that info, but they don't. The LED arrays are always saying something about elevators or escalators are out of service somewhere. How much effort would it take to have those video screens interrupted every time the PA's announce something to display the same message as text for 2 minutes?

That was one of the problems that was mentioned in the report. Basically people ignore "canned" messages.

The person speaking on the PA must make it sound like it is life and death what they are saying. And not just some everyday message.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I would give anything for Bridgeport Station to have a little convenience store similar to Scott Road's. I've spent too many hungry nights waiting for the bus there!

they should actually have something like that in all the stations. i think asia's got it right usually with their idea of public transportation with smaller shops setting up shop in their stations (jugo juice does it in some of the canada line stations) - but could we get some more in there?

don't understand why they wouldn't do it.

i almost always refer to HK's MTR, because it is one of the world's best. vancouver's public transportation has a lot to be desired (as of right now). there could be so much more done for our public transportation (mainly skytrain) to be much better.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Vancity

they should actually have something like that in all the stations. i think asia's got it right usually with their idea of public transportation with smaller shops setting up shop in their stations (jugo juice does it in some of the canada line stations) - but could we get some more in there?

don't understand why they wouldn't do it.

i almost always refer to HK's MTR, because it is one of the world's best. vancouver's public transportation has a lot to be desired (as of right now). there could be so much more done for our public transportation (mainly skytrain) to be much better.

I'm pretty sure just about every Jugo Juice has failed, because I never see them open. Something people here have brought up recently is you need washrooms for employees to have little shops at stations so if the plumbing's not already worked in it would be really hard to put it in now. It's something that needs to be considered during construction, not after.

[officedweller]

I don't think that people will hang out at a station - it's really only if they are trapped there and need to buy something.

WRT convenience, it probably depends on the product. If there are Starbucks closer to my office, I will buy it there (on the way to work), instead of walking several blocks with a hot cup in my hand, while holding a briefcase and umbrella. People are less likely to buy a drink on the way home.

Even under The Bay, on the SkyTrain concourse - one of the busiest transit passages in Vancouver, the previous food concessions did not do well. I don't know how the current concession is doing.