Winnipeg Construction VIII

[Cyro]

People often forget, speaking to the Osborne/Crescentwood area in particular, that the costs of major grocery shopping is rather expensive and limited to a few high priced stores? Go figure, the high density of this particular area in mind, it costs a fortune to shop in the area. Other retail establishments as well, clothing, etc.

The cost to lease is reflected in the pricing all the little local shops have to charge to stay in this particular location and remain afloat. Even a 5 minute walk from your residence for a few items, bottle of wine, fresh vegetables etc. will not stop people from needing to go farther distances to hit discount stores, malls etc. when it comes to shopping within their budgets.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

There's this fallacy that if you make it so people can walk to the grocery store, like they do in say Asian or Middle Eastern towns, that people will just drop there cars. In places like those, people will walk to the market and get the fresh meat or fish daily. In Canada, or really any western nation, where can you go to the market and get meat slaughtered right there on a daily basis? Really nowhere, unless you want to pay the price for it. Here people buy bulk groceries for a week or so. I'm not trudging through minus 30 weather to go to the store daily. I'll take my car once a week thanks.

If you want to live in an environment like that, the West is not the place to live. Move to Japan maybe. This is the new world, where everything is designed to eliminate those exact issues. We don't need to go to market daily because we have refrigerators. Go to Gaza or something and see how many fridges there are? Or if they have fridges, they might not have the power to run them. That's how the world works bub. Don't get me wrong, I'm a supporter of a high density, vibrant downtown. But like others have said, people need a place to live.

This model could work in North America, and it in fact does in certain places, but (as far as I am aware) only in TODs with very high levels of transit use. Basically, the sort of place where large numbers of people get off the subway, visit the supermarket above the station, and then walk a block or two to their building.

This could conceivably work along the proposed BRT corridors in Winnipeg, but it would never work in a typical outer suburban area where not that many people ride buses.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by esquire

This model could work in North America, and it in fact does in certain places, but (as far as I am aware) only in TODs with very high levels of transit use. Basically, the sort of place where large numbers of people get off the subway, visit the supermarket above the station, and then walk a block or two to their building.

This could conceivably work along the proposed BRT corridors in Winnipeg, but it would never work in a typical outer suburban area where not that many people ride buses.

You are right. But not a suburban development on the city boundary.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by windypeg

Maybe I'm alone on this, but as far as sprawl goes I'm more bothered by the heavily car-oriented, big box, sea-of-parking style retail developments that just seem to keep getting rubber-stamped here. Seasons of Tuxedo, Grant Park Pavilions, Westport Festival, etc...

not that it is acceptible, but welcome to the 2000's. Drive in the States, they are everywhere. Young, urban shops are making a return, but the masses want big boxes and cheap goods.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by esquire

This model could work in North America, and it in fact does in certain places, but (as far as I am aware) only in TODs with very high levels of transit use. Basically, the sort of place where large numbers of people get off the subway, visit the supermarket above the station, and then walk a block or two to their building.

This could conceivably work along the proposed BRT corridors in Winnipeg, but it would never work in a typical outer suburban area where not that many people ride buses.

Originally Posted by bomberjet

You are right. But not a suburban development on the city boundary.

And this is why I would call the Precinct E development sprawl. Because it necessitates the use of automobiles, with little regard for walking, biking, and transit, even if they add walking paths.

Esquire outlined my exact day after work. I take the bus from my office downtown, stop at daycare to pick up the kid, then continue on the Riverbend to Sobey's, do a daily shopping then walk home. I stop there almost daily.

Your idea that this is impossible in Winnipeg because we are so different is horse 🞵🞵🞵🞵. No offence, but I couldn't disagree with you more on your assessment on the idea of automobile non-reliance. Winnipeg isn't a special snowflake, it's a city, and with that comes its policies and priorities. The only difference between North America (and Winnipeg) and Europe is where these policies and priorities lay.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

And this is why I would call the Precinct E development sprawl. Because it necessitates the use of automobiles, with little regard for walking, biking, and transit, even if they add walking paths.

Esquire outlined my exact day after work. I take the bus from my office downtown, stop at daycare to pick up the kid, then continue on the Riverbend to Sobey's, do a daily shopping then walk home. I stop there almost daily.

Your idea that this is impossible in Winnipeg because we are so different is horse 🞵🞵🞵🞵. No offence, but I couldn't disagree with you more on your assessment on the idea of automobile non-reliance. Winnipeg isn't a special snowflake, it's a city, and with that comes its policies and priorities. The only difference between North America (and Winnipeg) and Europe is where these policies and priorities lay.

It would be nice if we got to that point, I agree. But to jump to that level and expecting it to work is like wanting to go from step A to Z without all of the stops in between. It's like a couch potato entering a gym for the first time in 20 years and deciding to sign up for a bodybuilding competition next month.

In my opinion there is more success to be had by playing the long game and shaping the city in a way that makes it more walkable and transit friendly. Forcing it will just alienate people and send them fleeing to the exurbs. I know YOU might do things in a certain way, but you are the outlier in Riverbend. I doubt there is more than a handful of people who do things that way. It will take a far greater convenience factor to get more people to buy in, and that will require TOD with residences and stores clustered closely together (especially in the winter when it's unpleasant to walk more than a few blocks outside in bitter cold).

I know I hold up this example a lot, but look at Edmonton. They built a LRT line in the 70s and 80s, and really only in the last decade has it started to pay dividends in terms of substantial TOD and the ability to lead a car free lifestyle. Winnipeg is only now getting to the point where rapid transit is coming into existence. These things aren't done overnight.

[bomberjet]

Well Steveo, unfortunately I'll call out your horse 🞵🞵🞵🞵 idea too. I, and 99.5% of Winnipegers, seem to agree that walking for 15 minutes in -30 weather to get groceries is completely 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 stupid. Then walking back with a bunch of heavy bags. Why would you do that? Just to prove that walking is better? North America is reliant on automobiles. Is that stupid? Maybe. But that's how this continent was developed. Seems they wanted to get away from the cramped European style cities.

I agree that the idea of walkable developments is good. I'm not saying we're so different in Winnipeg, or that it's impossible. What do expect of this development. A central node with every service anyone would need?

But seriously. I'm quite happy driving my car to the grocery store once a week, thanks very much. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I continue to respect yours. Calling others peoples views and opinions horse 🞵🞵🞵🞵, I don't stand for.

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by Cyro

The cost to lease is reflected in the pricing all the little local shops have to charge to stay in this particular location and remain afloat. Even a 5 minute walk from your residence for a few items, bottle of wine, fresh vegetables etc. will not stop people from needing to go farther distances to hit discount stores, malls etc. when it comes to shopping within their budgets.

I live 3 blocks from the River & Osborne Safeway and get 95% of my groceries there, despite owning a car, because I will happily pay a 10-15% premium for the convenience and time it saves, but also not to have to set foot in a place like Costco. Every time I do have to endure that nightmare it shocks me that so many people will put up with it just to save a couple bucks.

When I tell this to my bargain-hunter friends they kinda say something along the lines of "oh it must be nice not to have to worry about the money." I'm far from rich. Very very far. It's just a matter of priorities. What I spend on groceries they spend on gas.

[drew]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

walking for 15 minutes in -30 weather to get groceries is completely 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 stupid. Then walking back with a bunch of heavy bags.

Just to nitpick a bit...if you were to walk and get groceries on a fairly routine basis, your bags wouldn't be excessively heavy. Furthermore, if that's the lifestyle you live, you probably don't "stock up" on items, again lightening your load.

I live in an area that has two more or less full service grocery stores (food fares), and several smaller places within walking distance. However, we only shop there every now and again for odds and ends. The vast majority of our shopping is done by car at Superstore, by car.

I remember back in my single years (eons ago it seems) my roommates and I actually stole (or used full time) a shopping cart to take to and from the local walking distance supermarket. No one had a car then, but we still only shopped once a week, so you couldn't carry everything back.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I, and 99.5% of Winnipegers, seem to agree that walking for 15 minutes in -30 weather to get groceries is completely 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 stupid.

It is far closer to 100%. I bet there are no more than 50 people who do what stevo does.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Riverman

It is far closer to 100%. I bet there are no more than 50 people who do what stevo does.

I imagine there are quite a few in the Wolseley and West Broadway areas. Some based on a lifestyle choice, and some based on an income level.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

The only difference between North America (and Winnipeg) and Europe is where these policies and priorities lay.

No. Winnipeg, Manitoba for that matter is not a valid comparison to Europe or many European cities. When a European country, take your pick, with a population of 30+ Million people, the entire population of Canada, is shoe boxed into a space the size of Manitoba their priorities and policies change dramatically out of necessity.

This is not the case here.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by windypeg

I live 3 blocks from the River & Osborne Safeway and get 95% of my groceries there, despite owning a car, because I will happily pay a 10-15% premium for the convenience and time it saves, but also not to have to set foot in a place like Costco.

Every time I do have to endure that nightmare it shocks me that so many people will put up with it just to save a couple bucks.

As do I, several blocks, and earlier on only 1 block.
I have the cash to burn, I choose the opposite regardless of my bank account balance.
I prefer to shop elsewhere, not Safeway. Has nothing to do with money. Others who do not have the resources I may have will be forced to make a different choice.

[bomberjet]

You're right Drew about shopping more frequently. But then that would require walking daily, or a few times a week, for that distance! Not that I'm lazy or don't like being active. but I choose to be active doing things I like, not walking to get groceries.

If you choose that lifestyle, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with it. I still do pick a couple things here and there. Giant Tiger is close by. Last place I lived there was a Food fare next door, so that was great. But to walk daily to Sobey's, or weekly even, when I don't need to, seems pointless to me. Especially since they have that nice, large parking lot that needs use! I'm just being a 🞵🞵🞵🞵 now, sorry. Ignore my last comment.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Well Steveo, unfortunately I'll call out your horse 🞵🞵🞵🞵 idea too. I, and 99.5% of Winnipegers, seem to agree that walking for 15 minutes in -30 weather to get groceries is completely 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 stupid. Then walking back with a bunch of heavy bags. Why would you do that? Just to prove that walking is better? North America is reliant on automobiles. Is that stupid? Maybe. But that's how this continent was developed. Seems they wanted to get away from the cramped European style cities.

I agree that the idea of walkable developments is good. I'm not saying we're so different in Winnipeg, or that it's impossible. What do expect of this development. A central node with every service anyone would need?

But seriously. I'm quite happy driving my car to the grocery store once a week, thanks very much. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I continue to respect yours. Calling others peoples views and opinions horse 🞵🞵🞵🞵, I don't stand for.

I didn't really consider your views and opinions horse 🞵🞵🞵🞵, and I'll appologize for the over-zealous language. It was more the idea that we are somehow different than cities around the world. In particular -- "If you want to live in an environment like that, the West is not the place to live... This is the new world, where everything is designed to eliminate those exact issues."

I agree that cars are good things, I own a car now, after putting it off for well over 30 years. I like the fact that it's warm, makes commuting across the city much faster, etc. But in general automobile use is decreasing and people are moving to this style of hyper-localized markets. Perhaps Winnipeg is behind the times, but this is how things are moving. Developing (and allowing for plans to develop) neighbourhoods that include exactly 0 commercial/employment areas is a good way to get more people to drive their cars. I'm not expecting a node where you could buy anything you want, but a small commercial node that has at least one store would be good. Perhaps then you wouldn't have to walk so far...

[bomberjet]

There we go Steve. Thanks for that. And I also apologize for the over zealous language. I also agree with what you're saying, having a store nearby is nice for sure. But when people are choosing to live on the fringes of the city, I don't think being uber dense is at top of mind or even wanted.

[esquire]

It will be interesting to see what Genstar ultimately lays out for this precinct. Amber Trails doesn't have any commercial space at all other than a tiny building at the corner of Pipeline and Leila which may not even be part of the subdivision at all. But given the number of higher-density residences proposed for this tract (not to mention all of the people living nearby), you would think that there would be enough people to warrant a small strip mall or something of that nature near the entry points to the subdivision.

[bomberjet]

Honestly, I prefer the old grid layout of streets, with small shops, etc and the end of the blocks. Obviously this is the way of the dodo for most of Winnipeg. For me in EK, this is virtually non existent anymore. There's a couple stores around, but not many.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Honestly, I prefer the old grid layout of streets, with small shops, etc and the end of the blocks. Obviously this is the way of the dodo for most of Winnipeg. For me in EK, this is virtually non existent anymore. There's a couple stores around, but not many.

Shopper's Drug Mart is the new corner store.

Winnipeg is a very difficult place to form the habits associated with a lack of car dependance. In the summer, I'll walk up to the Shoppers or I'll bike to a place I'm comfortable I can take my bike into, but those habits are immediately broken the moment the weather begins to go. Especially with biking, the darkness is a pain in the 🞵🞵🞵, so by early October, I'm more or less packing it in. Then around May I have to re-learn all those habits again because, frankly, my car is easy, comfortable, and I can conduct business on the phone while I'm driving.

And that's not to say we shouldn't be planning for the months we can be a relatively active city, we just need to be realistic about how many months that presents. When it comes to something like groceries, when the wind is howling and it's 25 below, I'm happy to hit Costco and Superstore once a week and be able to get comfortable in the evenings. It's also quite a bit more costly to be hitting the grocery store daily.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Shopper's Drug Mart is the new corner store.

Winnipeg is a very difficult place to form the habits associated with a lack of car dependance. In the summer, I'll walk up to the Shoppers or I'll bike to a place I'm comfortable I can take my bike into, but those habits are immediately broken the moment the weather begins to go. Especially with biking, the darkness is a pain in the 🞵🞵🞵, so by early October, I'm more or less packing it in. Then around May I have to re-learn all those habits again because, frankly, my car is easy, comfortable, and I can conduct business on the phone while I'm driving.

And that's not to say we shouldn't be planning for the months we can be a relatively active city, we just need to be realistic about how many months that presents. When it comes to something like groceries, when the wind is howling and it's 25 below, I'm happy to hit Costco and Superstore once a week and be able to get comfortable in the evenings. It's also quite a bit more costly to be hitting the grocery store daily.

I tend to find it's less costly because I don't throw out as much food. Quite often when I do a larger shopping I over estimate the amount my family and I can eat in a few days and some of the fruits/veggies go bad. When I buy for the day I usually make a good assessment.