Winnipeg Construction VIII

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Cyro

..... but it has not changed the problems that exist around the St. Regis by any large degree.How to change the perception and reality of this problem is still a large issue that has not been addressed yet.

We want downtown residential density and folk coming downtown to live, work and play but this issue still has to be solved.

On an unrelated hotel note: I once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and enjoyed it immensely.

Yeah, the problem goes nowhere until the Garrick is shuttered. It's irrelevant where one buys the booze if the plan is to consume it at the hotel, anyway...

[1ajs]

dont complain and get involved in the sulution the next geniration

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

why do people get in such a tizzy over bikes on balconies

Not in a tizzy. That's what they're used for a lot of times.

[BAKGUY]

Why are we even comparing rates from Toronto to Winnipeg? We might want to compare with Hamilton, Quebec city, where a similar population exists.. perhaps a bit larger city as Edmonton and larger yet Calgary?
I know the posted rates charged in GTA are high as are in Montreal but so many people I know go through Hotwire, Priceline etc. just like I always do and get it for far cheaper than anyone could in a similar venue here in Winnipeg.. So many I know get rates under or near $100 and in Winnipeg you pay more and quite often for a lesser place or not as great a central location... so.. not sure about this argument. plus the cost of doing business in Toronto or Montreal for example is far greater as well.

[1ajs]

[bomberjet]

Cool, nice tarp.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by BAKGUY

Why are we even comparing rates from Toronto to Winnipeg? We might want to compare with Hamilton, Quebec city, where a similar population exists.. perhaps a bit larger city as Edmonton and larger yet Calgary?
I know the posted rates charged in GTA are high as are in Montreal but so many people I know go through Hotwire, Priceline etc. just like I always do and get it for far cheaper than anyone could in a similar venue here in Winnipeg.. So many I know get rates under or near $100 and in Winnipeg you pay more and quite often for a lesser place or not as great a central location... so.. not sure about this argument. plus the cost of doing business in Toronto or Montreal for example is far greater as well.

A) Servicing and maintaining an older but well established hotel is easier than constructing a new one. A lot of these cheap hotels you're speaking of in these downtowns just simply don't renovate and that's how they keep their rack rates down.

B) Net income is what matters; not the nightly rate. If one hotel charges $150/night but is only full three nights a week, they're still worse off than one that charges $100/night but is full five nights. This is why occupancy rate and REVPAR (revenue per available room night) are so important: they account and equalize account for these variables.

The national average for value growth on hotel assets in 2013 was 4.8%. Winnipeg's value growth was 1.7%. Projecting for 2014, national average is 5.6% where Winnipeg's is 1.9%. In other words, we're not seeing any real growth at all given that inflation is averaging about 1.9% in Manitoba. And it isn't that I'm ignoring other similar markets - Regina's growth was 3.8% with a projection for 4.5% in 2014. Edmonton grew at 8.2% in 2013 and is projecting out at 9.2% for 2014. Calgary grew at 9.1% last year and is looking to be over 10% for this year. Hell, even Halifax is expected to be over 4% for 2014. And this isn't dire stuff, but you can't get a hotel financed in this city anymore; we're oversupplied to the point that growth is only succeeding in devaluing the rest of the market at this point.

And just to crystallize this point, the average value of a sold hotel room in this province last year was $52,300. In Alberta it was almost three times that figure @ $156,300. Obviously you can't build a hotel room for $52,300, so here's where the rubber meets the road.

This is all part of the reason I'm just not convinced we're going to be seeing any further hotel development for a long time. A fund would have to step in a finance somebody because at this rate, no bank will.

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

There are always going to be lots of people traveling to Toronto and looking for a decent hotel at a discount just as long as they can be in Downtown Toronto. But that's a market that isn't even close to ours in either size or intent. If somebody is traveling to downtown Winnipeg, they're here for a day or two and they're out because they're likely here on business. There's no travel industry of people coming to Winnipeg for a week to see a Leafs game and a Raptors game and to wander around downtown doing some shopping and then maybe walking up to College to eat at any of the many small restaurants and bars. We don't have that here. Why would anybody stay in Downtown Winnipeg unless they absolutely had to? Where are you going to go?
.

Jets games, MTS Centre concerts, the WAG and its upcoming addition, the RWB, the WSO, the CMHR and the Forks, the wide variety of bars/ restaurants and art galleries in the Exchange, a number of other concert halls and music venues, etc. Of course our downtown attractions are of a smaller scale than somewhere like Toronto, but if you're like most urban travelers looking for bars & restaurants, pro sports, live music, art galleries and museums, we actually have pretty similar offerings, the most notable exception being shopping. For a variety of reasons downtown Winnipeg is not regarded as much of a destination but there is potential there.

[Cyro]

^ I also loved attending the Prairie Theater Exchange and the Manitoba Theater Center 1st class if your interested in additional cultural events and I'll throw in the Museum of Man and Nature.

The Exchange is quite the Jem culturally and does attract visitors that are interested in this aspect of visiting a City.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by windypeg

Jets games, MTS Centre concerts, the WAG and its upcoming addition, the RWB, the WSO, the CMHR and the Forks, the wide variety of bars/ restaurants and art galleries in the Exchange, a number of other concert halls and music venues, etc. Of course our downtown attractions are of a smaller scale than somewhere like Toronto, but if you're like most urban travelers looking for bars & restaurants, pro sports, live music, art galleries and museums, we actually have pretty similar offerings, the most notable exception being shopping. For a variety of reasons downtown Winnipeg is not regarded as much of a destination but there is potential there.

Everything you've just said is wishful thinking. This doesn't happen. You get people from Brandon and Kenora and Thunder Bay making specified trips to go see a Jets game or a concert; they're almost certainly not coming to do an arts tour of Winnipeg.

And it's not to say it's never happened, but the number of people booking a trip for a vacation to come see the finest Winnipeg has to offer and to wander around a wind swept downtown in the cold, one extreme end to the other, is probably immeasurably low.

And again, why would anybody? If you had the choice and weren't brought here for the purposes of visiting family or something, who would select Winnipeg? You can just as easily fly to Toronto and see all of the same things, but better. And with shopping and fine dining all within minutes of your hotel.

Let's get real about this. What are you going to do downtown all day while you're waiting for your WSO show to start at 7:30? Drink at Boston Pizza? You're going to end up in the suburbs...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Let's get real about this. What are you going to do downtown all day while you're waiting for your WSO show to start at 7:30? Drink at Boston Pizza? You're going to end up in the suburbs...

The list of suburban attractions here is fairly short once you get past shopping, where it is the undisputed champion (and even the main shopping district around Polo Park is quasi-urban to begin with).

• Casinos
• Assiniboine Park
• Mint
• Investors Group Field
• Golf courses
• Uhhhhhhh

By contrast, a first-time visitor could easily fill a day walking around downtown and adjacent areas (Old St. B, Osborne Village).

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

The list of suburban attractions here is fairly short once you get past shopping, where it is the undisputed champion (and even the main shopping district around Polo Park is quasi-urban to begin with).

• Casinos
• Assiniboine Park
• Mint
• Investors Group Field
• Golf courses
• Uhhhhhhh

By contrast, a first-time visitor could easily fill a day walking around downtown and adjacent areas (Old St. B, Osborne Village).

This just gets to my point: why would anybody vacation in Winnipeg without having some familial obligation? They don't. And because those who come here generally come with a purpose, they tend to stay wherever the room is cheapest because you can get anywhere in this city in fifteen to twenty minutes.

And there's really no sense in arguing it because the market facts are very clear. We can talk about all the fantastic things there are to do in downtown versus the suburbs or vice-versa all day long, the fact is, nobody is coming to do them at any sort of clip that justifies expansion of anything. In fact, we've been losing rooms downtown and there's been nothing to suggest replacing them is even a good idea.

A first time visitor without tickets to something would be out of attractions by 3:00 on the first day. There's nothing in Osborne Village worth seeing, Old St. B. is cool, but there's not much to see or do apart from some historical landmarks, and there's nothing downtown worth seeing. I guess if you're into architecture you can take a walk around the Exchange and stare at the some office buildings if you like.

Let's not get too ahead of ourselves. Winnipeg is fine, but it's not a tourist destination.

[esquire]

^ Not suggesting for a moment that Winnipeg is some sort of Las Vegas-like visitor hub, but my point is that for the tourists that we do get, downtown is where they are likely to be headed in terms of attractions and entertainment.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Not suggesting for a moment that Winnipeg is some sort of Las Vegas-like visitor hub, but my point is that for the tourists that we do get, downtown is where they are likely to be headed in terms of attractions and entertainment.

Sure, because most of our 'tourists' are coming from places that are a few hours drive from Winnipeg to see a Jets game or a concert, but those people are in and out within a day or two. And if you're a business traveler, you're staying at the airport. The point I was making was that if you were here for anything other than a specified event - Jets, concert, whatever - staying downtown as a means to keep yourself close to everything and occupied over the course of 5 days isn't going to do that.

Our tourism is incidental - you have to go to Winnipeg for something.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Cool, nice tarp.

was in centerpoint this morning

[BAKGUY]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

This just gets to my point: why would anybody vacation in Winnipeg without having some familial obligation? They don't. And because those who come here generally come with a purpose, they tend to stay wherever the room is cheapest because you can get anywhere in this city in fifteen to twenty minutes.

And there's really no sense in arguing it because the market facts are very clear. We can talk about all the fantastic things there are to do in downtown versus the suburbs or vice-versa all day long, the fact is, nobody is coming to do them at any sort of clip that justifies expansion of anything. In fact, we've been losing rooms downtown and there's been nothing to suggest replacing them is even a good idea.

A first time visitor without tickets to something would be out of attractions by 3:00 on the first day. There's nothing in Osborne Village worth seeing, Old St. B. is cool, but there's not much to see or do apart from some historical landmarks, and there's nothing downtown worth seeing. I guess if you're into architecture you can take a walk around the Exchange and stare at the some office buildings if you like.

Let's not get too ahead of ourselves. Winnipeg is fine, but it's not a tourist destination.

Nobody is coming to do things downtown. Nobody? Really? nobody in English means Zero last I checked!
There are more than office buildings to see. unique on of a kind shops and specialty boutiques of all kinds, rather than the run of the mill predictable pedestrian eateries and shops found to nauseam in suburban malls.
I find it both alarming and appalling just what tunnel vision you have and how narrow your outlook on life here is.
You should probably move or at the very least consider it.
Your pessimistic and negative attitudes and belief in Winnipeg is sad.
I meet many clients who wish and others to pass through here and check it out as well as those who want and see more than your eyes will allow you to see.
There are many things to do Downtown and obviously you do not find those things engaging or mind stimulating so no point to mention them.
Osborne Village? Really? You disparage one of the highest ranking areas in our country>Are you for real?
One can get lost there almost every time one goes. A charm you do not find or feel but it matters not as many others enjoy it or Corydon.
There are plenty of things to do in the Exchange District and Downtown.
There are many arts related things to immerse oneself in it's many attractions. Boston Pizza? That is what you came up with while so many far better or more original great places to eat or drink downtown> It is so telling. Boston Pizza. Wow!
That statement tells a lot about who you are!
There are so many negative people in this city but I am noticing over time as we have more success the past several years with business models that are preforming well and overcoming objections like when The MTS Centre was set to be doomed located where it was.
Well, as we all know it is #3 in all of Canada #19 in North America and top 100 Centres in the world.
it is pity I have for those who just can not see, feel or pursue what is beyond their grasp and even at times what lies to be discoverd,
Sad Shame!

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Wigglez

Also, while were on the topic of hotels. Whatever happened to the city closing the St Regis Hotel... That is still one of the most horrific buildings to walk by at any time during the day. Would be nice to clean out their clients from the area.

Or was closing that based on Fortress actually building anything on the lot beside it?

Speaking of flood evacuees occupying said hotel, it would be interesting to hear what percentage of those evacuees found work in Winnipeg in the 3+ years they've spent in the city. Seems to me a perfect opportunity to get off that particular reserve where jobs were pretty scarce and start afresh!

[BAKGUY]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Speaking of flood evacuees occupying said hotel, it would be interesting to hear what percentage of those evacuees found work in Winnipeg in the 3+ years they've spent in the city. Seems to me a perfect opportunity to get off that particular reserve where jobs were pretty scarce and start afresh!

but of course!

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by BAKGUY

I find it both alarming and appalling just what tunnel vision you have and how narrow your outlook on life here is.
You should probably move or consider it.
Your pessimistic and negative attitudes and belief in Winnipeg is sad.
I meet many clients who wish to pass through here and check it out as well as those who want and see more than your eyes will allow you to see.
Osborne Village? Really? You disparage one of the highest ranking areas in our country>Are you for real?
Wow. I am glad we are not friends. One can get lost there almost every time one goes.
There are plenty of things to do in the Exchange District and Downtown.
There are many arts related things to immerse oneself in it's many attractions. Boston Pizza? That is what you came up with while so many far better or more original great places to eat or drink downtown> It is so telling.
There are so many negative people in this city but I am noticing over time as we have more success the past several years with business and overcoming objections like when The MTS Centre was set to be doomed. Not a chance as it is #3 in Canada #19 in North America and top 100 Centres in the world.
it is pity I have for those who just can not see, feel or pursue what is beyond their grasp and even at times what lies to be discoverd,
Sad Shame!

Uh huh. Anything else?

When I responded to your arguments with facts and figures I didn't expect you to have some emotional outpouring of unprovable, anecdotal nonsense. Next time, please try to make an argument. Nobody is interested in this sort of thing. Getting lost in Osborne Village? Where? Safeway or Shoppers Drug Mart? If your clients are getting lost somewhere on a half-block stretch, that may explain why they're clients of yours. Did they get lost on the way to the bank or the tanning salon?

And the MTS centre is just a corporate welfare scheme at the expense of everybody else. Tell me more about its place in society.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Everything you've just said is wishful thinking. This doesn't happen. You get people from Brandon and Kenora and Thunder Bay making specified trips to go see a Jets game or a concert; they're almost certainly not coming to do an arts tour of Winnipeg.

And it's not to say it's never happened, but the number of people booking a trip for a vacation to come see the finest Winnipeg has to offer and to wander around a wind swept downtown in the cold, one extreme end to the other, is probably immeasurably low.

And again, why would anybody? If you had the choice and weren't brought here for the purposes of visiting family or something, who would select Winnipeg? You can just as easily fly to Toronto and see all of the same things, but better. And with shopping and fine dining all within minutes of your hotel.

Let's get real about this. What are you going to do downtown all day while you're waiting for your WSO show to start at 7:30? Drink at Boston Pizza? You're going to end up in the suburbs...

You're completely wrong about this. Sure it's not at Toronto or Vancouver levels, but I used to work at a bar at The Forks, and I've worked at places around the Exchange for years now: you'd be shocked the amount of people that come up from the States or other parts of Canada just because they want to "do something different." Get people in daily saying that, even in the winter. This is not including the numerous amount of people that come in for events or visiting family.

I actually have several regulars that visited and decided to move because they loved the Exchange — and the cost savings compared to similar areas anywhere else.

With the growing list of things to do in the winter (people are finally starting to realize we have to embrace it) and the city finally starting to piggyback off of Churchill visitors, it's only going to continue to grow.