Winnipeg Construction VIII

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

The city can vary whatever it likes, but it won't vary for something that will be politically touchy (surface parking lots get noticed now in a way that they didn't 30 years ago), and most importantly, for a project that the city itself would be spearheading.

If the city gives itself permission to proceed with a non-accessory surface parking lot on a lot that it effectively owns, then how does it say no to anyone else? It can't. That's why it won't happen.

Also, the non-profit group that tore the Shanghai Restaurant down wanted surface parking on the lot but was rejected. That's why there is a quote-unquote "park" there now instead of parking spaces.

The Shanghai is a parking lot. Whether the city wants to admit that is up to them. They certainly aren't enforcing anything.

And I'm 100% agreeable that it's politically untenable. I don't disagree that it would be hypocritical to be seen doing exactly what you're demanding others don't. But that doesn't change my opinion of it. If the city is going to continue pretending they have some value there, they'd may as well generate some revenue. Let's be honest. The better part of the electorate couldn't care less what happens at the corner of Carlton and St.Mary. Given the option for the city to collect money on an interim basis by charging $120/stall or having it sit completely vacant representing no benefit at all, I'd bet nearly everybody agrees it's worthwhile even if it's not the most preferred option.

The question becomes: what do you do with it otherwise? Nobody is going to sod it and nobody is going to pave it because each of those is admission of failure in some respect. Why not monetize the thing? At least a few years worth of parking income chips away at the existing debt. Then, if somebody comes forward with an offer, you can afford to part with it on some better terms...

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

.............................

But the Alt is not indicative of Winnipeg's overall market. The Alt is an investment by Longboat to capture the room nights generated by the MTS Centre and True North. Realistically, those are room nights that would have existed anyway, they're just going to cannibalize the business that was otherwise patronizing the Fairmont.

Realistically speaking as you suggest, remains to be seen. The Fairmont knew the Alt development was coming for several years and has taken steps to upgrade and refurbish. Will it take some business away, yes, but not to the degree that's being suggested.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

The question becomes: what do you do with it otherwise? Nobody is going to sod it and nobody is going to pave it because each of those is admission of failure in some respect. Why not monetize the thing? At least a few years worth of parking income chips away at the existing debt. Then, if somebody comes forward with an offer, you can afford to part with it on some better terms...

My bet is that it'll get sodded as a pocket park the way that the Hull's Books site was before that store was built. When you have a mayor (plus the mayor before him) and a provincial government elected on promises to eliminate surface parking lots downtown, they will not OK a new one on land that the city controls. Nothing turns on the hundred grand a year or whatever that the lot would generate.

[Riverman]

^ When an opportunity to waste money comes along, let's waste it.

When an opportunity to make money comes along, let's avoid it for the sake of optics.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

But how is this any different than what you see in other cities apart from scale? The latest and greatest hotels that open up will always steal market share from their older, suddenly less impressive competitors.

There was a time when the Westin Harbour Castle or the Delta Chelsea (now the Eaton) were considered pretty high end places to stay... now they're the places I get for a steal on Priceline when I go to Toronto to visit friends.

I think you've made my point here. There are always going to be lots of people traveling to Toronto and looking for a decent hotel at a discount just as long as they can be in Downtown Toronto. And the business traveler and wealthy traveler will pay the premium required to stay in the beautiful newer hotels or ones that have bothered to renovate. And there are lots of both of those travelers in Toronto. But that's a market that isn't even close to ours in either size or intent. If somebody is traveling to downtown Winnipeg, they're here for a day or two and they're out because they're likely here on business. There's no travel industry of people coming to Winnipeg for a week to see a Leafs game and a Raptors game and to wander around downtown doing some shopping and then maybe walking up to College to eat at any of the many small restaurants and bars. We don't have that here. Why would anybody stay in Downtown Winnipeg unless they absolutely had to? Where are you going to go?

And that's why we've seen such heavy densification of hotel rooms in the airport area - that's where the demand has grown. That tells me that when people arrive in Winnipeg as travelers they are really only here for the most practical purposes. Conferences, tradeshows, etc. That's what's driving that business. Come in, stay as close to the airport as possible, and get out.

And let's be honest here. Who would ever stay a night at most downtown Winnipeg hotels? Nearly all of them are satellite reservations by this point. The St. Regis, The Radisson, the Marlborough, The Best Western, The Carlton until it was torn down; Even the Delta is turning into that. These aren't the places suburbanites from other cities are going to spend more than one (mistaken) day...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Riverman

^ When an opportunity to waste money comes along, let's waste it.

When an opportunity to make money comes along, let's avoid it for the sake of optics.

Some things just aren't worth it. I mean, I bet you can make more money by turning your basement into a cheap crash pad for drifters... are you going to?

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Cyro

Realistically speaking as you suggest, remains to be seen. The Fairmont knew the Alt development was coming for several years and has taken steps to upgrade and refurbish. Will it take some business away, yes, but not to the degree that's being suggested.

Well, with all due respect to the Fairmont, when True North promotes a show, they're providing the accommodation. I'm doubtful they'll be sending anybody to the Fairmont. And in that same vein, I'm doubtful their standing as owners in the NHL isn't going to garner them some preferred consideration for the teams and staff that will be showing up some 45 nights or so on an annual basis.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

I think you've made my point here. There are always going to be lots of people traveling to Toronto and looking for a decent hotel at a discount just as long as they can be in Downtown Toronto. And the business traveler and wealthy traveler will pay the premium required to stay in the beautiful newer hotels or ones that have bothered to renovate. And there are lots of both of those travelers in Toronto. But that's a market that isn't even close to ours in either size or intent. If somebody is traveling to downtown Winnipeg, they're here for a day or two and they're out because they're likely here on business. There's no travel industry of people coming to Winnipeg for a week to see a Leafs game and a Raptors game and to wander around downtown doing some shopping and then maybe walking up to College to eat at any of the many small restaurants and bars. We don't have that here. Why would anybody stay in Downtown Winnipeg unless they absolutely had to? Where are you going to go?

And that's why we've seen such heavy densification of hotel rooms in the airport area - that's where the demand has grown. That tells me that when people arrive in Winnipeg as travelers they are really only here for the most practical purposes. Conferences, tradeshows, etc. That's what's driving that business. Come in, stay as close to the airport as possible, and get out.

And let's be honest here. Who would ever stay a night at most downtown Winnipeg hotels? Nearly all of them are satellite reservations by this point. The St. Regis, The Radisson, the Marlborough, The Best Western, The Carlton until it was torn down; Even the Delta is turning into that. These aren't the places suburbanites from other cities are going to spend more than one (mistaken) day...

Dramatic overstatement. The hotels by the airport are not major conference venues. There is basically one hotel that fits that category - the Victoria Inn. The rest are places for business road warriors dropping in for a night or two (Four Points, Hilton, Grand) or the places that people from Brandon or Kenora spend the night at before catching a morning flight somewhere (Staybridge, Days Inn, Sandman). In other words the kinds of places you see out by every airport in North America.

As for tourists, we don't have that many of them but of course they're going to stay downtown. Why wouldn't they? Downtown is still by a long shot the most interesting quarter in the city. Yeah if you're mainly interested ingoing to Club Regent you'll stay in Transcona and if you're interested in the Downs you'll stay on Portage West. But really now, compared to most Canadian cities Winnipeg has very, very few suburban hotel options - with the only real exception being the airport.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

My bet is that it'll get sodded as a pocket park the way that the Hull's Books site was before that store was built. When you have a mayor (plus the mayor before him) and a provincial government elected on promises to eliminate surface parking lots downtown, they will not OK a new one on land that the city controls. Nothing turns on the hundred grand a year or whatever that the lot would generate.

I'd love to see somebody get that land for free and then utilize the new surface lot incentive program to drag another few million in subsidy from it and pay no property tax for about 18 years. I honestly want to see just how bad this one can get so the paper can pick it up and demonstrate to the citizens what happens when the government tries to play developer with the public purse.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

I'd love to see somebody get that land for free and then utilize the new surface lot incentive program to drag another few million in subsidy from it and pay no property tax for about 18 years. I honestly want to see just how bad this one can get so the paper can pick it up and demonstrate to the citizens what happens when the government tries to play developer with the public purse.

Hah. Fair enough. Obviously this can of worms should never have been opened in the first place.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

Dramatic overstatement. The hotels by the airport are not major conference venues. There is basically one hotel that fits that category - the Victoria Inn. The rest are places for business road warriors dropping in for a night or two (Four Points, Hilton, Grand) or the places that people from Brandon or Kenora spend the night at before catching a morning flight somewhere (Staybridge, Days Inn, Sandman). In other words the kinds of places you see out by every airport in North America.

As for tourists, we don't have that many of them but of course they're going to stay downtown. Why wouldn't they? Downtown is still by a long shot the most interesting quarter in the city. Yeah if you're mainly interested ingoing to Club Regent you'll stay in Transcona and if you're interested in the Downs you'll stay on Portage West. But really now, compared to most Canadian cities Winnipeg has very, very few suburban hotel options - with the only real exception being the airport.

Not all conferences are big conferences. Most are 25 or 30 people gathered in a banquet room. That's the bread and butter. Sure, there are the few smaller ones you stated and you're right about their clientele. But everything newly constructed isn't counting on a few people from Brandon and Kenora - they're counting on the usage of banquet halls and restaurants.

And there are more than enough suburban hotels to satisfy Winnipeg's demand. We know this because room rates are down around the city. And I'm not doubting that people stay in hotels in downtown Winnipeg, we just know who those people are. And because there's no demand for any more rooms in the downtown at the moment, it's safe to say that whatever demand increase we have seen has been well-satisfied through increased development at the airport. The entire premise that people who are visiting Winnipeg are staying downtown outside of those who need to access aboriginal services simply isn't true. And the Fairmont isn't relevant because the average person can't afford to stay there.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Well, with all due respect to the Fairmont, when True North promotes a show, they're providing the accommodation. I'm doubtful they'll be sending anybody to the Fairmont. And in that same vein, I'm doubtful their standing as owners in the NHL isn't going to garner them some preferred consideration for the teams and staff that will be showing up some 45 nights or so on an annual basis.

TNSE and their connection to the NHL and concert dates at their facility aside, the Faimont is still one of the premier destinations and has been for travelers from abroad to the City for years. Actors, Musicians, Heads of State from Countries around the world...etc..etc..
If the Stones rolled through town, I assure you Mick wouldn't be staying at the Alt.

But, the lower end Alt brand will do well with individuals connected to the MTS centre and may effect NHL teams visiting Winnipeg. What arrangements they have or how they may change their current agreements is anybody's guess.

[esquire]

^ I would frankly be a little surprised if NHLers visiting Winnipeg began staying at the Alt. I've never stayed at one myself but judging from the website it is kind of mid-range (although clearly stylish). I figured that for NHLers it was 4 stars all the way... in Winnipeg, the Fairmont is really the only game in town for that kind of thing.

Probably not a huge deal, though... between business travellers, tourists and MTS Centre event attendees, I'm sure they won't have a hard time keeping the place full.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Cyro

TNSE and their connection to the NHL and concert dates at their facility aside, the Faimont is still one of the premier destinations and has been for travelers from abroad to the City for years. Actors, Musicians, Heads of State from Countries around the world...etc..etc..
If the Stones rolled through town, I assure you Mick wouldn't be staying at the Alt.

But, the lower end Alt brand will do well with individuals connected to the MTS centre and may effect NHL teams visiting Winnipeg. What arrangements they have or how they may change their current agreements is anybody's guess.

This is already a very unusual ALT hotel given that it's not some suburban airport crash pad. I wouldn't be surprised to know there are a few luxury suites for the purposes of accommodating some high end acts brought through by True North.

I still believe that the Fairmont has the high end market cornered and you're right that they will stay that way. They're just going to lose a whole lot of business that has been generated through the actions of True North. That's all the hockey teams and associated staff and probably 90% of the acts they're promoting at both the MTS Centre and the Burt. And that's likely most of the reason they're suddenly in the hotel business to begin with. There aren't many other companies in this city with that kind of pipeline...

[Cyro]

I believe the last couple of posts show were all pretty much in sync when it comes to the Alt. vs. the Fairmont and the roles they play in the downtown market.
Is there agreement about the Carton Inn site and it's future, not yet, it's debatable.
Is the downtown hotel market saturated at this point, yes.
Are the current Airport hotels sufficient to sustain the visitors to Winnipeg, yes again.
When will we see a new hotel announced downtown/airport, it may be some time......

[1ajs]

from this morning

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

I still believe that the Fairmont has the high end market cornered and you're right that they will stay that way. They're just going to lose a whole lot of business that has been generated through the actions of True North. That's all the hockey teams and associated staff and probably 90% of the acts they're promoting at both the MTS Centre and the Burt. And that's likely most of the reason they're suddenly in the hotel business to begin with. There aren't many other companies in this city with that kind of pipeline...

Doesn't the NHL have deals with certain chains? I didn't think NHL teams could just book in at any hotel they felt like, although Winnipeg might be a partial exception given the absence of most major hotel chains from the city.

[rypinion]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Doesn't the NHL have deals with certain chains? I didn't think NHL teams could just book in at any hotel they felt like, although Winnipeg might be a partial exception given the absence of most major hotel chains from the city.

NHL teams stay at the local Starwood hotel in each city. Since Winnipeg doesn't have a downtown Starwood hotel (the Westin at Portage and Main would have changed that) they stay elsewhere (The Fairmont).

http://www.hospitalitynet.org/news/4014597.html

In addition to the marketing alliance, the NHL and NHLPA will utilize Starwood properties for League and Players' Association events, meetings and travel.

I originally heard this long ago, pretty sure from this forum.

[BAKGUY]

it is interesting how not one person acknowledges THE FORT GARRY HOTEL being a top hotel whatsoever in this discussion. It is on par with the FAIRMONT as is The Delta Winnipeg of recent renovations and services. The Delta actually has less cache' in name brand than the name FAIRMONT but it is definitely now on par in our downtown.

[1ajs]

touche^^