Winnipeg Construction VIII

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Speaking of hotels, what is happening with the Canad Inns hotel development next to McPhillips Street Station - the one that was supposed to be 20 or so stories high with the huge conference centre?

I wonder if the rumors that the HSC CanadInns is significantly underperforming is impacting the start date for the McPhillips Street Station property.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I wonder if the rumors that the HSC CanadInns is significantly underperforming is impacting the start date for the McPhillips Street Station property.

I wonder if the CanadInns business model is starting to catch up with them... I mean, it's great that they're building new highrise hotels when almost no one else is, but when you charge top dollar for unremarkable accommodations the market will run dry before long... there are only so many people willing to pay through the nose to be next to a casino or hospital.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by esquire

It can't be that.

That "law" means nothing because it has no teeth. Is it better to leave the land vacant for 20 years or generate some revenue from parking?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Riverman

That "law" means nothing because it has no teeth. Is it better to leave the land vacant for 20 years or generate some revenue from parking?

I know you're just trolling but I'll indulge you.

When was the last time there was a legitimate non-accessory surface parking lot allowed in downtown Winnipeg? I can't think of any in recent years. Even the illegal accessory surface lots - the kind that are typically run by sketchy landlords (Boyd Building) - get shut down eventually.

The city let that kind of stuff go back in the 70s, but not really anymore. Think it through, the city is not going to break its own laws to run an illegal surface parking lot.

[Riverman]

A building is torn down with absolutely no plans to replace it. There is no market for a hotel there, that has already been established. Why not have a parking there to generate revenue to try and recover some of the money wasted on this ill-conceived plan? And why the — do you call this trolling?

Face it, during events the CC parking lot is frequently full. Another lot close by would help.

[esquire]

Even if Centreventure wanted a surface parking lot there more than anything else in the whole wide world, there's no way that the city will approve such a conditional use. The city would happily eat the loss if that's the price of not setting a precedent completely at odds with its official plans. It's a political non starter.

If there is no feasible development, the site gets sodded as a pocket park or whatever. Not a whole lot better than a surface parking lot, but that's how it is.

[BAKGUY]

Regardless of the former Carlton Inn site, when a major hotel gets built, it might be nearby but on other land such as SOPO or Lakeview or somewhere else like the MPIC lot on Donald street. We allowed way to many airport run of the mill nothing special hotels to forge ahead. I am still of the belief that with the winding down of 314 Place Louis Riel rooms and more demand for the hopefully increased volume @ the expanded Convention centre, we will se at least one or two more hotels. Otherwise we are saying the RBC convention centre expansion is likely to fail??? with nearly $200 million invested in its expansion? no benefits at all for the city and downtown?
With increased convention visitors, we should be able to in a couple years to get things moving. We are growing and there will be room in time.

[esquire]

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with the airport hotels. Pretty well every city with an international airport has a collection of large hotels nearby... if anything, Winnipeg had a surprisingly small collection of mostly outdated hotels by YWG until a long run of new hotels began popping up from the late 90s to now. I kind of thought the market was getting saturated and simplicity/tv seem to confirm that.

That said, there have been some new hotels popping up downtown to offset the losses at PLR and the Sheraton. Over the past decade we've seen Inn at the Forks, Mere, the executive suites on Waterfront, and soon Alt.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by BAKGUY

We allowed way to many airport run of the mill nothing special hotels to forge ahead.

This was done because the market demanded it. Downtown is not a hotel destination, even the airlines pulled out of downtown.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Riverman

This was done because the market demanded it. Downtown is not a hotel destination, even the airlines pulled out of downtown.

There are more hotel rooms downtown than anywhere else in the city, and more are popping up.

[Riverman]

That is changing. The airport is fast becoming the place to stay.

[BAKGUY]

Originally Posted by Riverman

That is changing. The airport is fast becoming the place to stay.

Air Canada pulled out of downtown not WestJet and some others who are still there..

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Riverman

That is changing. The airport is fast becoming the place to stay.

In other words, Winnipeg is like practically every city known to man where the biggest collections of hotels can be found downtown and by the airport (in that order).

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by Riverman

That is changing. The airport is fast becoming the place to stay.

Not really "changing" anymore, since the airport hotel market is now very saturated and we've likely seen the last such project for some time. There was a recent surge but that was mostly catch-up from a long period of sluggish hotel development in the area. You're implying this trend is continuing but it's pretty much grinding to a halt.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

I know you're just trolling but I'll indulge you.

When was the last time there was a legitimate non-accessory surface parking lot allowed in downtown Winnipeg? I can't think of any in recent years. Even the illegal accessory surface lots - the kind that are typically run by sketchy landlords (Boyd Building) - get shut down eventually.

The city let that kind of stuff go back in the 70s, but not really anymore. Think it through, the city is not going to break its own laws to run an illegal surface parking lot.

When the Shanghai was being torn down the ownership requested, and was granted, a conditional use surface parking lot instead of grading and sodding over as is normally suggested.

In fact, unless a building is completely derelict and posing a collapse risk to the public, within the downtown zoning by-law it isn't even allowable to apply for a demolition permit without a full redevelopment plan. That was also overlooked in this case.

Fact is, the city can vary whatever by-law it likes provided they're agreeable to it. It's just registered within the zoning by-law as an amendment.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

When the Shanghai was being torn down the ownership requested, and was granted, a conditional use surface parking lot instead of grading and sodding over as is normally suggested.

In fact, unless a building is completely derelict and posing a collapse risk to the public, within the downtown zoning by-law it isn't even allowable to apply for a demolition permit without a full redevelopment plan. That was also overlooked in this case.

Fact is, the city can vary whatever by-law it likes provided they're agreeable to it. It's just registered within the zoning by-law as an amendment.

The city can vary whatever it likes, but it won't vary for something that will be politically touchy (surface parking lots get noticed now in a way that they didn't 30 years ago), and most importantly, for a project that the city itself would be spearheading.

If the city gives itself permission to proceed with a non-accessory surface parking lot on a lot that it effectively owns, then how does it say no to anyone else? It can't. That's why it won't happen.

Also, the non-profit group that tore the Shanghai Restaurant down wanted surface parking on the lot but was rejected. That's why there is a quote-unquote "park" there now instead of parking spaces.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with the airport hotels. Pretty well every city with an international airport has a collection of large hotels nearby... if anything, Winnipeg had a surprisingly small collection of mostly outdated hotels by YWG until a long run of new hotels began popping up from the late 90s to now. I kind of thought the market was getting saturated and simplicity/tv seem to confirm that.

That said, there have been some new hotels popping up downtown to offset the losses at PLR and the Sheraton. Over the past decade we've seen Inn at the Forks, Mere, the executive suites on Waterfront, and soon Alt.

This is true. But it doesn't quite tell the whole story. The Inn at the Forks would be the exception here. That's truly a fantastic development even after facing as much opposition as it did and it has served the downtown well even if it's only sort of a downtown hotel. But it's also worth noting that a lot of the business the Inn at the Forks does is local in the form of spa packages and the restaurant rental. I'd be surprised to hear significant occupancy from out of towners.

The Mere is a small boutique hotel and it isn't really a market mover, but it's a cool idea. It only has a few rooms, though. It's more of a novelty than anything. It's also too early to call it a success, but I'll bite for now.

But the Alt is not indicative of Winnipeg's overall market. The Alt is an investment by Longboat to capture the room nights generated by the MTS Centre and True North. Realistically, those are room nights that would have existed anyway, they're just going to cannibalize the business that was otherwise patronizing the Fairmont.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by esquire

The city can vary whatever it likes, but it won't vary for something that will be politically touchy (surface parking lots get noticed now in a way that they didn't 30 years ago), and most importantly, for a project that the city itself would be spearheading.

Really, nobody cares except a vocal few and the hundred or so people on this board. It could easily be leased to Impark without anyone noticing. At least the property would be used then, as well as maintained and cleaned.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

But the Alt is not indicative of Winnipeg's overall market. The Alt is an investment by Longboat to capture the room nights generated by the MTS Centre and True North. Realistically, those are room nights that would have existed anyway, they're just going to cannibalize the business that was otherwise patronizing the Fairmont.

But how is this any different than what you see in other cities apart from scale? The latest and greatest hotels that open up will always steal market share from their older, suddenly less impressive competitors.

There was a time when the Westin Harbour Castle or the Delta Chelsea (now the Eaton) were considered pretty high end places to stay... now they're the places I get for a steal on Priceline when I go to Toronto to visit friends.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Really, nobody cares except a vocal few and the hundred or so people on this board. It could easily be leased to Impark without anyone noticing. At least the property would be used then, as well as maintained and cleaned.

Without a doubt it could be a viable and in all likelihood lucrative lot. But that's not the issue here.