O-Train Line 2 [Stage 1 | Bayview to Greenboro] | In Service

[1overcosc]

Given that both legs of the transfer are routes with headways under 10 minutes at almost all times (the only exception being that after 9pm Trillium will be at 15 minutes), and the transfer point is within an enclosed station, it's not much of a concern. Literature has consistently shown that rail-rail within-station transfers have very little transfer penalty. The main concern with the pending setup is the capacity of the Trillium Line; full double tracking is going to be needed within 20 years, possibly sooner. Confederation Line though has very little capacity concerns thankfully. It's capacity is more than twice what the ridership will be on opening day (10,700 pph is the projected peak demand, 24,000 pph the capacity).

[1overcosc]

The city's handling of the upgrade project though, is quite bad. There was no need for the project to last two years, and there was no need for last summer's shutdown either. The city is just too cheap to use construction techniques that allow work on lines in service. And yes, that is technologically possible. In Toronto, they've done work on GO lines far more extensive than any of the work we've done here (they've literally converted track from at-grade to trenched while in service continuously!). When the time comes to do a full double tracking, higher ridership counts will hopefully force the city to 🞵🞵🞵🞵 it up and do it this way.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Given that both legs of the transfer are routes with headways under 10 minutes at almost all times (the only exception being that after 9pm Trillium will be at 15 minutes), and the transfer point is within an enclosed station, it's not much of a concern. Literature has consistently shown that rail-rail within-station transfers have very little transfer penalty. The main concern with the pending setup is the capacity of the Trillium Line; full double tracking is going to be needed within 20 years, possibly sooner. Confederation Line though has very little capacity concerns thankfully. It's capacity is more than twice what the ridership will be on opening day (10,700 pph is the projected peak demand, 24,000 pph the capacity).

The concern is that service frequency will be at best 16 minutes on the airport leg and the Riverside South leg, and that is assuming that frequency will not be affected by opening new stations at Gladstone and Walkley. You would expect small further delays because of this.

For most passengers, the transfer penalty will come because there will be two transfers to get downtown and one of the legs will be on a bus.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The city's handling of the upgrade project though, is quite bad. There was no need for the project to last two years, and there was no need for last summer's shutdown either. The city is just too cheap to use construction techniques that allow work on lines in service. And yes, that is technologically possible. In Toronto, they've done work on GO lines far more extensive than any of the work we've done here (they've literally converted track from at-grade to trenched while in service continuously!). When the time comes to do a full double tracking, higher ridership counts will hopefully force the city to 🞵🞵🞵🞵 it up and do it this way.

Yes, but are the right of ways a lot wider in Toronto allowing this to happen? I believe there are potentially bigger problems coming in Toronto on less busy Go lines where there is presently only a single track and not a wide corridor to work with. Also, has Toronto faced a lot of trenching in bedrock and tunneling under water in upgrading the Lakeshore and Kitchener lines?

[Dado]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Yet another service interruption this weekend. The one track O-Train is so vulnerable and it is amazing how difficult it has been to increase service frequency.

How exactly is the single track relevant, here?

This shutdown was related to an upgrade of the signalling system. If they're going to shutdown for a signalling system upgrade on a single track, then they'd do it on a double track system as well. Doubling frequency does require adding extra signalling blocks to the line, and even a full double track system will still have crossovers, so the rationale for the shutdown exists independent of track numbers.

The problem we have here is the wider City of Ottawa shutdown mentality. Shutting stuff down is the first reflexive response they have to any kind of issue. Sometimes they can't get away with it, but when they think they can, they do.

I am not sure how a two pronged extension to Riverside South and the airport will ever work and deliver a reasonable level of service. I also don't understand why the city expects people to use this route to go downtown, which involves yet another transfer.

People in places like the Randstad region of the Netherlands travel that kind of distance every day and make transfers at both ends. But here in Ottawa... well god forbid anyone be required to make a transfer for anything.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Yes, but are the right of ways a lot wider in Toronto allowing this to happen? I believe there are potentially bigger problems coming in Toronto on less busy Go lines where there is presently only a single track and not a wide corridor to work with. Also, has Toronto faced a lot of trenching in bedrock and tunneling under water in upgrading the Lakeshore and Kitchener lines?

Railway RoWs seldom differ from the 100' norm. If anything, it's us who have the more room from a practical point of view since several of our RoWs (including the O-Train south of the Rideau River) have vacant land alongside them.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The city's handling of the upgrade project though, is quite bad. There was no need for the project to last two years, and there was no need for last summer's shutdown either. The city is just too cheap to use construction techniques that allow work on lines in service. And yes, that is technologically possible. In Toronto, they've done work on GO lines far more extensive than any of the work we've done here (they've literally converted track from at-grade to trenched while in service continuously!). When the time comes to do a full double tracking, higher ridership counts will hopefully force the city to 🞵🞵🞵🞵 it up and do it this way.

When riding the train this morning a rep from OCTranspo was giving a tour of the line to a group of engineers visiting from Boston. The most interesting thing I overheard was that they tried to fit in a refurbishment of the Rideau River bridge last summer and couldn't, and that the refurb would have to be done in ~5 years when the next shutdown takes place.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Dado

People in places like the Randstad region of the Netherlands travel that kind of distance every day and make transfers at both ends. But here in Ottawa... well god forbid anyone be required to make a transfer for anything.

Unless you're trying to just get from one downtown neighbourhood to another, in which case service has been "improved" for you by route-splits at Rideau.

[1overcosc]

My impression is that reliability was improved by the split.

[EdFromOttawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Yet another service interruption this weekend. The one track O-Train is so vulnerable and it is amazing how difficult it has been to increase service frequency. I am not sure how a two pronged extension to Riverside South and the airport will ever work and deliver a reasonable level of service. I also don't understand why the city expects people to use this route to go downtown, which involves yet another transfer.

Here is the service interruption announcement:

O-Train service will be replaced by Route 107 for two days — November 8 and 9 — in order to complete signal work for expanded O-Train service later this year. This work is an important part of the expansion project which is required to build and maintain a safe rail service for customers. The work is being performed when ridership is lower to lessen the impact on customers.

Temporary bus Route 107 will operate:
• Nov. 8: every 15 minutes
• Nov. 9: • From 10 am to 6 pm: every 15 minutes
• Before 10 am and after 6 pm: every 30 minutes


Buses will travel parallel to the O-Train routing between Bayview and South Keys stations, making only limited stops along the way.

It really is quite astounding how much time and effort has gone into decreasing wait times from 15 minutes to 8 on a 5 station line....

Hopefully this expansion will help pave the way for faster/easier expansions later if the line is lengthened further south.

[Dado]

It's got to the point where it's time to put the amateurs in charge, since the professionals just don't seem up to the task.

[lrt's friend]

People in places like the Randstad region of the Netherlands travel that kind of distance every day and make transfers at both ends. But here in Ottawa... well god forbid anyone be required to make a transfer for anything.

The point being?

My point is that each transfer reduces ridership significantly. That is a known fact.

[EdFromOttawa]

Originally Posted by Catenary

When riding the train this morning a rep from OCTranspo was giving a tour of the line to a group of engineers visiting from Boston. The most interesting thing I overheard was that they tried to fit in a refurbishment of the Rideau River bridge last summer and couldn't, and that the refurb would have to be done in ~5 years when the next shutdown takes place.

LOL for real why is OCTranspo being used as an example for anyone?!

[McC]

You can learn a lot from others' mistakes.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Thanks to Rapibus, people now know what NOT to do.

[Aylmer]

The Rapibus learned from the Transitway's mistakes (little to no priority where it matters ― downtown), but not in the right way

[Dado]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The point being?

My point is that each transfer reduces ridership significantly. That is a known fact.

Does the need to transfer at LeBreton for Hull-bound passengers "significantly" reduce ridership?

This transfer penalty is not nearly as high as is imagined when the transfers are fairly quick and hassle free.

[eternallyme]

Re: Toronto, no GO Train line has 15 minute off-peak service. Heck, some lines don't even operate outside of peak hours.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Dado

Does the need to transfer at LeBreton for Hull-bound passengers "significantly" reduce ridership?

This transfer penalty is not nearly as high as is imagined when the transfers are fairly quick and hassle free.

Exactly. In fact, research from Toronto has shown that if given a choice, riders prefer higher frequencies & more transfers over lower frequencies & direct trips. In Toronto, when the subway system's second line opened, they briefly had the two lines interline with each other in such a way that no transfers would ever be required:

Source: Wikipedia

This system however meant that each individual train could only run at half the frequency because each station had two services passing through it. As such, people had direct trips but their average waits on the platform were twice as long. This proved unpopular and within a few months interlining was abandoned, and transfers were introduced but frequency was doubled. And that change resulted in happier riders.

[Beedok]

Yeah, the length of wait is a major factor. Waiting 5-10 minutes for a transfer is okay. Waiting 15-30 minutes is rather annoying.