Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by lio45

Are you actually comparing Ann Arbor to the suburban 'Ford Nation' GTA belt and using that to draw general conclusions about "the U.S." and "Canada"?

I never said that it is some universally shared belief; I only have my experiences to draw from. But among graduate students at the University of Michigan and Washington University in St. Louis, this kind of thinking is definitely very popular. Hence, I suggested that it exists among educated, liberal, progressive, young people. And Canadian experience includes North York, Calgary downtown, and the University of Waterloo, in addition to suburban GTA.

Many educated, liberal, progressive, young Americans seem to have a firm belief that White Christian English-speaking Americans who have lived here for a few generations have no superior claim to America in any sense.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

You really do have to live here to understand that this is an honest concern.

This is challenged by the fact that there are literally about a dozen stores with Chinese-only language signage. Something like 97% of businesses have English signage on them.

This honest concern seems more like paranoia. And I mean that in a way that hopefully does not insult you or dismiss your concerns. It's just that given those numbers, I do not feel like the issue raises to the level of where it is an actual concern, rather than some minor nuisance that is interesting to discuss.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I never said that it is some universally shared belief; I only have my experiences to draw from. But among graduate students at the University of Michigan and Washington University in St. Louis, this kind of thinking is definitely very popular. Hence, I suggested that it exists among educated, liberal, progressive, young people. And Canadian experience includes North York, Calgary downtown, and the University of Waterloo, in addition to suburban GTA.

Many educated, liberal, progressive, young Americans seem to have a firm belief that White Christian English-speaking Americans who have lived here for a few generations have no superior claim to America in any sense.

I am a 19 year old student at the University of British Columbia who supports gay rights, gun control, women's rights including abortion, marijuana legalization, and of course, smart growth. Yet I also believe in immigrant assimilation.

I don't think you can just call anybody that supports radical immigrants inclusiveness as educated, liberal, progressive and young, because there are bound to be many exceptions to this. This also by virtue implies that anybody that supports immigrant assimilation to be uneducated, conservative, regressive and old, which is certainly not the case.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

heheh. Probably taken with this.

cultmontreal.com

I've always been afraid to buy Quebon because it's so much cheaper than the other kinds... is it that much inferior, or just subsidized?

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I think there is a lot more tribalism involved in trying to separate everybody geographically by race, rather than unifying everyone under one lingua franca.

I am not encouraging self-imposed segregation, but I do not support government efforts to forcibly integrate neighborhoods by interfering in individuals' freedom of mobility. Most metropolitan areas in North America have both heterogeneous and homogeneous neighborhoods, and I have no problem with that.

Imposing one's own language on another is rather tribalistic. I do not want the government involved in that. I would much rather allow individuals to do as they please based on practical considerations and what they find appealing. Traditionally, immigration resulted in asymmetrical reciprocal acculturation that meant that newcomers would likely adopt the host society's lingua franca quickly.

Currently, due to the existence of ethnic enclaves in most metropolitan areas in North America, that process has been a little bit more symmetrical in certain pockets of the metropolitan area. The existence of a large Chinese community in Richmond means that the newest newcomers need not learn English as quickly. Having more symmetrical reciprocal acculturation processes also puts incentives on the non-Chinese population to learn some Chinese.

Not really a big deal. Over a few generations, and in the macro picture, the conditions are still ideal for asymmetrical reciprocal acculturation, which should satisfy those who want to assert a privileged position in society for their own culture (the Anglo culture). Even in the pockets of homogeneous ethnic concentration, at present, I think that the conditions will simply delay and soften the asymmetry of the reciprocal acculturation process.

I just find it sad that there are those who feel that immigration is a one-way street, digging up idioms that applied to Empires millennia ago ("When in Rome..."), to justify such a lopsided view. A state truly welcoming of immigrants ought to allow for the prospect of reciprocal acculturation to take place without any coercion; an element can be adopted by an individual based on their own criteria for adoption.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I never said that it is some universally shared belief; I only have my experiences to draw from. But among graduate students at the University of Michigan and Washington University in St. Louis, this kind of thinking is definitely very popular. Hence, I suggested that it exists among educated, liberal, progressive, young people. And Canadian experience includes North York, Calgary downtown, and the University of Waterloo, in addition to suburban GTA.

Many educated, liberal, progressive, young Americans seem to have a firm belief that White Christian English-speaking Americans who have lived here for a few generations have no superior claim to America in any sense.

One thing I personally found living in the states is that at the very least, the whole topic of immigration and assimilation and all that is much more openly debated by people of various political groups. In Canada, it seems that depending on who you talk to, the issue is "closed" and if you bring it up you get labeled as racist, and the conversation quickly moves on.

In the states however, at least with the people I knew, there was much more discussion of it, and the pro/anti-assimilation crowd came from either side. By that I mean there are a surprising number of democrats who feel very strongly that immigrants should assimilate... Whereas I feel that in Canada, at least on the political left, the whole multiculturalism approach is very firmly decided, and you will be somewhat of an outcast bringing up alternative ideas.

That's one of the things that keeps me from wholeheartedly supporting the political parties on the left in Canada. I'd like to think that the party in charge of the country at least has somewhat of a backbone to stand up for things like English and French, among other Canadian cultural aspects.
In practice the Conservatives have been no better though.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I am a 19 year old student at the University of British Columbia who supports gay rights, gun control, women's rights including abortion, marijuana legalization, and of course, smart growth. Yet I also believe in immigrant assimilation.

I don't think you can just call anybody that supports radical immigrants inclusiveness as educated, liberal, progressive and young, because there are bound to be many exceptions to this. This also by virtue implies that anybody that supports immigrant assimilation to be uneducated, conservative, regressive and old, which is certainly not the case.

I never asserted that every young, educated, liberal, progressive person holds this view. But, based on my experiences living in Canada and the US, young, educated, liberal, progressives in the US tend to hold a view of immigration that treats newcomers as equals when compared to the same demographic in Canada.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

One thing I personally found living in the states is that at the very least, the whole topic of immigration and assimilation and all that is much more openly debated by people of various political groups. In Canada, it seems that depending on who you talk to, the issue is "closed" and if you bring it up you get labeled as racist, and the conversation quickly moves on.

In the states however, at least with the people I knew, there was much more discussion of it, and the pro/anti-assimilation crowd came from either side. By that I mean there are a surprising number of democrats who feel very strongly that immigrants should assimilate... Whereas I feel that in Canada, at least on the political left, the whole multiculturalism approach is very firmly decided, and you will be somewhat of an outcast bringing up alternative ideas.

That's one of the things that keeps me from wholeheartedly supporting the political parties on the left in Canada. I'd like to think that the party in charge of the country at least has somewhat of a backbone to stand up for things like English and French, among other Canadian cultural aspects.
In practice the Conservatives have been no better though.

I agree. Regardless of the position taken, Americans seem more vocal and willing to advocate positions that are more extreme (e.g., completely open immigration, as well as a much more restricted immigration policy). In Canada, the topic is almost taboo.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

This is challenged by the fact that there are literally about a dozen stores with Chinese-only language signage. Something like 97% of businesses have English signage on them.

This honest concern seems more like paranoia. And I mean that in a way that hopefully does not insult you or dismiss your concerns. It's just that given those numbers, I do not feel like the issue raises to the level of where it is an actual concern, rather than some minor nuisance that is interesting to discuss.

The demographic shift is an ongoing thing though, no? I would be surprised to hear that the proportion of Richmond residents speaking mostly Mandarin has plateaued. This seems like a case of being proactive, rather than waiting for 97% of the signs to have no English on them before starting the language law debate. I'm not saying this is the necessary outcome here, but it certainly seems like a logical possibility. Why wouldn't it be?

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I agree. Regardless of the position taken, Americans seem more vocal and willing to advocate positions that are more extreme (e.g., completely open immigration, as well as a much more restricted immigration policy). In Canada, the topic is almost taboo.

Definitely...

For better or worse I guess. I think it's important to have a strong political discussion, but I did find it a little unsettling to hear certain radical political views being given national media attention.
All in all though, I'd say left wing political views in Canada are less taboo than in the states, but certain right wing views are far more taboo in Canada.
The idea of deporting millions of illegal immigrants from the country is discussed openly, but the mere mention of universal healthcare has you branded as a radical communist hellbent on taking away America's guns and freedom. Socialist is basically a 4 letter word in America. Even "liberal" is used pretty pejoratively by both moderates and conservatives.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Architype

Not following the thread here, but . . .

I'm all for banning it on large signs which identify the business, also on restaurant menus, or anywhere that might make a person feel unfairly treated.

Incidentally, I get Chinese-only ads at the top of SSP all the time (seriously). I can't read them, but it must be because I'm living in Vancouver so I'm thought to be Chinese, go figure.

Can anyone tell me what this says?

There was an encoding problem with that, probably on your end, so it's unintelligible gibberish.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

This is challenged by the fact that there are literally about a dozen stores with Chinese-only language signage. Something like 97% of businesses have English signage on them.

This honest concern seems more like paranoia. And I mean that in a way that hopefully does not insult you or dismiss your concerns. It's just that given those numbers, I do not feel like the issue raises to the level of where it is an actual concern, rather than some minor nuisance that is interesting to discuss.

No worries, I'm not offended at all, I honestly look forward to every new message you and the others post.

I know right now there aren't very many of them, but there's more to it than that. First of all, the ones that are all concentrated in Richmond's downtown which includes our four Skytrain stations and a major mall, so there are lots of people that are in this area often. Second of all, there are many stores that have English on them, but in absolutely tiny print. At a bus stop I'm at often at Aberdeen Station on the Canada Line (which serves the principal Asian mall in the region by the way) there are lots of stores and signs around that have both Chinese and English on them. However, I can only read the Chinese characters and have to come up right up to the sign to read the English, because it could literally be 1/10th the size of the Chinese. There are many, many signs like this in downtown Richmond that don't get counted in the 3%. Now I know this goes against my "don't know what's around you" argument, because if you really wanted to know what was in the store you could, but it still says that you're an afterthought in your own city.

I might be guilty of a slippery slope fallacy, but it just feels like this is only the beginning. I haven't been able to find the exact stats, but it has only been a few decades since Richmond was predominantly white. Who knows what it will look like in another 20 years. I just want us to try and stop it now before it gets to the point where there won't be anything we can do.

[casper]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

The thing is, having Chinese only signs in Richmond will never go punished since so much of the population is Chinese. These businesses will have no problem finding customers. They don't have to worry about the other races in the area, because the Chinese will be able to support them on their own. This way, everybody other than the Chinese are excluded.

What this creates is white flight, as mentioned above. While it may not be the traditional white flight as seen in the US, here it comes from feeling unwelcome and uncomfortable in a society that increasingly pushes you away. This turns into a snowball effect, where the more Canadians leave, the more Chinese the city will become. While the principles of "freedom" and "letting the free market decide" are logical, this is irrelevant in a place like Richmond. As I mentioned above, diversity is better where everyone lives everywhere, not when a city is broken up into different ethnic areas, and this is what Chinese-only businesses do. Any Canadians that do stay become strangers in their own city.

If you run a successful business you understand who your customer is and tailor your service and product to that customer. Not every business in Richmond is going to be targeted to the taste of every resident.

As an example, I am not a fan of a high-end stuffy restaurant, that has a dress code and your surrounded by an army of waiters. But those exist and I don't believe we should band them because I don't feel comfortable going to one.

Trying to engineer where people are going to buy property based on ethnic background is a something I don't think a society we want to get into.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by casper

If you run a successful business you understand who your customer is and tailor your service and product to that customer. Not every business in Richmond is going to be targeted to the taste of every resident.

As an example, I am not a fan of a high-end stuffy restaurant, that has a dress code and your surrounded by an army of waiters. But those exist and I don't believe we should band them because I don't feel comfortable going to one.

Trying to engineer where people are going to buy property based on ethnic background is a something I don't think a society we want to get into.

I'm not saying we should actively work towards having relative racial equality in all parts of the city, just that we should try and encourage the maintenance of English. The rest would sort itself out. Richmond became an immigration hot spot for the Chinese a while before it got covered in Mandarin. Ethnic groups would still settle more in some places than in others. But by keeping English prevalent within the public sphere, it would minimize, or at least slow down white flight. English would unite all the different ethnicities we have in Vancouver as it is the area's original language , and it already unities the different ethnicities all around the world as the unofficial global lingua franca.

The existence of pretentious restaurants doesn't make people feel uncomfortable in their daily lives. The gradual erosion of English within Richmond by Chinese does. Expensive restaurants may not cater to everyone, but there are no real consequences to that. English businesses are available to anybody that lives here, but Chinese businesses are only useful for Chinese people.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It may have been covered in the thread, but I don't recall seeing it - has anybody asked the Chinese merchants with Chinese-only signs in Richmond what is behind their decision? Has there been any public response by said merchants to suggestions that it might be a thought to include English on their signs?

Immigrants are too pragmatic to let racism get in the way of good business, unlike a certain province . 90% of the time it's because the merchants are literally unable to serve English-speaking customers since they don't know English themselves. You'll be surprised at the number of mostly-geriatric long-time locals with too much time on their hands who will make a point of showing up to a Chinese store just to create a scene about the inadequate service. They don't do that with any other group of immigrants, because as others have mentioned, those aren't "threats" to white majority/privilege.

I'm very much against the segregation that is happening, but am unwilling to support artificial legislated means to restrict choice, especially with something as superficial as signage, which just comes across as desperate. It's like the CRTC debacle with Canadian-content quotas. Fix the problem at the source. Take only the immigrants who can pass a real English test AND give (not lend) the government a whackload of money - yes a headtax.

But... Canada is unique in the world in the extent of its accommodation of immigrants, so I am also ok with watching the results of this experiment unfold.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by dleung

You'll be surprised at the number of mostly-geriatric long-time locals with too much time on their hands who will make a point of showing up to a Chinese store just to create a scene about the inadequate service. They don't do that with any other group of immigrants, because as others have mentioned, those aren't "threats" to white majority/privilege.

They don't do that with any other group of immigrants because no other group of immigrants has displayed such an unwillingness to to participate in the local culture.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

The existence of pretentious restaurants doesn't make people feel uncomfortable in their daily lives. The gradual erosion of English within Richmond by Chinese does.

You speak your opinion as if you speak on behalf of the entirety of Richmond's community. The economic class segregation in Vancouver is a thousand times worse than a few foreign language signs and you can be sure that the constant parade of high class restaurants, car advertisements, and other reminders that there exists a large economic divide in Vancouver makes many people feel very uncomfortable in their own city on a daily basis.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by geotag277

You speak your opinion as if you speak on behalf of the entirety of Richmond's community. The economic class segregation in Vancouver is a thousand times worse than a few foreign language signs and you can be sure that the constant parade of high class restaurants, car advertisements, and other reminders that there exists a large economic divide in Vancouver makes many people feel very uncomfortable in their own city on a daily basis.

You're right, not everybody feels the way that I do about this. But I think it can be said as a fact that a Chinese-only store feels a lot more foreign and alienating than luxury car dealerships. I'd be very surprised if there were even a few lower-class people that wish we had less fancy, expensive stuff around the city so they would feel more comfortable.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dleung

Immigrants are too pragmatic to let racism get in the way of good business, unlike a certain province .

I'd be curious to see you bring up actual examples of that... if you can...

[dleung]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

They don't do that with any other group of immigrants because no other group of immigrants has displayed such an unwillingness to to participate in the local culture.

You just don't notice other cultures do this because there are less of them and they lack a critical mass needed to have a community of their own. "Unwillingness to participate in the local culture" does sound like a good reason, but the resentment typically expressed revolves around luxury condos, BMWs driven by 16 year old kids, and other symptoms of being out-performed economically by "foreigners". Universities are scrambling to recalibrate their evaluation tools to reverse-affirmative-action some whites back into med school lol.