Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

^did you bother reading it?

His Alpha Bits letters align with Q U E B E C in the milk every morning.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I don't really see how salsa dancing or French songs are the same. Maybe a person couldn't "fully participate in their city" without being fluent in the mother tongues of every single person who lived (or visited) there (is this even realistically possible?). But that isn't really the same thing as being able to fully participate in the public realm.

All these things exist in the public realm as it pertains to commercial businesses doing and interacting and offering services to the public. It is very convenient for you to come up with arbitrary delineations about what is acceptable in some subset of the public realm for your purposes and what is not acceptable. It goes beyond into absurd territory when you try to paint advertisements of all things as some high protected class of culture that should be specially preserved.

The signs are a physical, semi-permanent part of the public realm.

Again, signs are temporary, businesses are temporary, songs on the radio are temporary. Arbitrary rules for arbitrary things you don't approve of. Some signs say " Adega Restaurante ", a fairly permanent sign - totally acceptable. Another sign on the side of a bus might say "牙膏" - totally unacceptable. The goal posts concerning what is and what is not acceptable have been moved so many times in this thread already, maybe we should just ask Mr Government to sort it out for us.

their presence is alienating to the non-Mandarin-speaking, Anglo population. A reminder that there is now a part of their city that's not really for them.

That's too bad some thin skinned entitled citizens feel that way. I also feel that way when an ad shows a calculus equation I can't solve. Why should I be alienated as a person with substandard mathematic skills. I demand to understand and properly interpret every piece of text presented to me in the public realm without any work or effort on my part! Hell, that's my right as a citizen and if I can't do that, I feel alienated and need Mr Government to make sure I feel welcome in my own city!

Perhaps all of these people could learn Mandarin, but as others have pointed out, why should they be the ones making the concession?

Such an absurd argument. To understand the ad you would have to learn something. Seeing something you don't recognize simply requires you to learn about it. Why should calculus appear on an ad? Why should I be the one having to make a "concession" to learn something I don't understand? Why should abstract art appear on an ad? I don't want to make any concessions to learn or understand abstract art! I demand to know and understand everything presented to me with zero effort!

See? I can use rhetoric and polemic language too.

They are (for the most part) there simply by virtue of not moving out of their own city.

Not sure your point here. People are there because they are living there. Immigrants live in neighbourhoods, second, third, fourth generation Canadians live there. What is the point? Just because you live in a place for 20 years doesn't mean you are judge jury and executioner on all things in your neighbourhood, and the neighbourhood is not beholden to you for approval on what should and should not be the direction of said neighbourhood in the future. Neighbourhoods change, people change. There is no promise to anyone that a neighbourhood will remain the same until you decide it should change.

Most of the Mandarin speakers (I assume) made a conscious decision to immigrate to Canada. Should they not be the ones making a concession?

Again with the concession word to paint the fact you might have to learn something.

Is it unfair to ask those considering immigrating here to try to participate in the society that exists here, rather than simply living their own culture in a linguistic bubble here, and suggesting that we have as much of a responsibility to learn their language as they do ours?

They are participating. They are using Canadian advertising services operating a Canadian business and offering their services to all Canadians in the neighbourhood and otherwise. Ironically it is you who is not participating. Also, a foreign language sign is not an indication people don't understand a language, it is an ADVERTISEMENT. This whole story you have painted about people not understanding English and not offering services to English speakers is a giant load of horse shit. You can walk into the establishment and get service just fine. They might even speak better English then you.

You have invented an entire stereotypical narrative back-story to some random people you have never met entirely based off a stupid ADVERTISEMENT on the side of a bus. It is quite absurd.

I also get the impression that the proposed bill here will be a bit of a turning point, ie. either signs will be required to have some English, or the proportion of Mandarin-only signage will increase over time.

It won't be a turning for anything, except removing a potential avenue of advertising, restricting the freedoms available for said advertising, and injecting more government regulation at the behest of a bunch of close minded out of touch "get off my lawn" voices.

I sincerely hope that blanketing you in English-only advertisements fills that gaping hole of cultural experience you are currently lacking in Vancouver

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd be interested in seeing some stats on that.

I apologize that this will be a long post, but I think everyone needs to see this before they write another uninformed post. The Asian-Canadian experience in Richmond far pre-dates the immigration boom of the 1990s.

"In 1942, all 2,600 people of Japanese descent, about two-thirds of Steveston's population, were interned in the interior and all their belongings confiscated, including hundreds of fishing boats. It was a dark time for these people, and also for Steveston, which overnight became like a ghost town."

read more in Steveston: A Community History by Bill McNulty

"The first family of settlers started to develop Steveston in 1880, and strove to create Steveston as a seaport that would rival the city of Vancouver. Steveston was originally a farming community, but it was the fishing industry that gave it its economic power for the next century. In 1882, the first cannery opened, and by 1890 there were fifteen canneries. There were about 150 workers per cannery, usually of Chinese, Japanese, or of First Nations origin who immigrated to Canada to pursue a better life. By 1901, Steveston had shipped over 16 million pounds of salmon overseas to markets in Europe, making it a tremendously important and prosperous market for the Vancouver region. By 1912, new technologies were introduced to the canneries and the fish processing lines became automated. This meant that less workers were needed, and the town population drastically decreased to half of its size. The Japanese Canadians comprised a major portion of Steveston's population in the mid-20th century; as a result of Japanese militarism during the Second World War, the Canadian government sent the Japanese off to internment camps in the interior, leading to the community's decline."

UBC

There's even talk of making Steveston into an UNESCO world heritage site because of its diverse heritage.

Here are some photos from the Steveston Museum:

Chinese 'Slitters' Butchering Fish (1890)
http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/sgc-cms/hist...l&fl=0&lg=English&ex=591&hs=0&rd=263581#

Chinese Workers Soldering Lids on Cans (1900)


Hong Wo General Store (1905)


and Hong Wo General Store Interior (1955)


Mukai Confectionary (1940)


Japanese Quarters (1905)


The Japanese Hospital (1900)

..and their patients (1900)


The Japanese School (1908)


The Japanese Kindergarten (1928)


The Japanese Methodist Mission (1904)


Chinese Workers Testing Cans (1908)


The Steveston Fires (1908)


Japanese Picture Bride (1905)


Japanese Women in Canning Line (1913)


Boats at Atagi Boatworks (1920)


The Japanese Start Farming (1924)


Japanese Berry and Vegetable Farm (1927)


Steveston Judo Club (1937)


Murakami House (1940)


Kishi Boatworks (1952)


The Steveston Martial Arts Centre (1972)


Confiscated Japanese Fishing Boats (1942)


Evacuation of Japanese Canadians (1942)


Tomekichi Homma (1900)


"Tomekichi Homma (1865-1945) was an immigrant from Japan who arrived in British Columbia in 1883, making him one of the first Japanese settlers in Richmond. He was involved in the construction of the first Japanese school as well as a fishermen’s hospital. In 1897 he started the first Japanese daily newspaper, the Canada Shinpo. He helped to organize the Japanese fishermen into their own association and, throughout his lifetime, fought for the right of suffrage for the Asian populations - something that didn’t occur until 1949, five years after his death. He was interned during World War II and died in the Slocan Valley." He now has a school named in his honour. http://www.richmond.ca/cityhall/archives/exhibits/schools/80s90s/homma.htm?PageMode=HTML

If that's not an effort to embrace the community, I don't know what is.

All of this of course is located in modern-day Richmond. Bear in mind that the earliest non-indigenous settlement on the delta was around 1877, and the population was much smaller than today for most of Richmond/Steveston history. Nonetheless, non-Anglo presence has been significant from the start. Richmond welcomed immigrants from around the world until the 1920's when racist policies, dictated by Canada's house of commons, became more severe.

[RyLucky]

It seems to me that if mainstream Canada can throw someone in prison for their race and confiscate all their property, the mainstream has no moral authority to dictate what culture and language should be privileged, except when it's a matter of health and safety.

[ssiguy]

^ I completely disagree.

Canada is multicultural but also bilingual.

In a restaurant someone want to only serve a customer in Cantonese and/or only have their menu in Cantonese, then knock yourself out, I couldn't care less. What a business owner does with his/her business is their own affair.

This, however, is in the privacy and confines of their own business while billboards/signs are part of the public realm. Their entire reason for existing is to get people's attention, in a public setting. If you want to communicate using the public realm then that means it must include French or English. As long as they are large enough to read, I don't care which letters are bigger.

Our legal system is also governed strictly by two language, English and French. To expect the courts or police or anyone {ie a ambulance attendant trying to find "Goldenstar Restaurant" but can't because the sign is only in Cantonese} who serves the public in any language except English or French is offensive at the least and dangerous at the worst.

What if that Goldenstar Resturant actually said the "F...ing Goldenstar Resturant how would the authorities know unless a Cantonese speaking person was lodge a complaint? To expect authorities and primary services to understand every language going is ridiculous.

Inside you business {or home} you could use Marsian for all I care but once you put up any sign in the public realm it must be understood for all those in the public realm and in Canada that means one of our official languages.

[matthew6]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

{ie a ambulance attendant trying to find "Goldenstar Restaurant" but can't because the sign is only in Cantonese}

Is it normal that ambulance attendants in Richmond are not given addresses when replying to an emergency? Sounds like a dangerous practice.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

His Alpha Bits letters align with Q U E B E C in the milk every morning.

heheh. Probably taken with this.

cultmontreal.com

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by matthew6

Is it normal that ambulance attendants in Richmond are not given addresses when replying to an emergency? Sounds like a dangerous practice.

An emergency situation is just that... an emergency situation. Time is of the essence. The job of the 911 operator is to gather as much info as quicklyt as possible while dispatching the required responders. The person making the call may not know the exact address as these are not always visible. Go check out any type of boulevard-type road and the street number is not always visible from the street and is often quite small and obscure. Many 911 calls involving business locations are placed and responded to with info like "the Mac's Milk on Maple St." or the "Canadian Tire at the corner of Weston and Highlands".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

I apologize that this will be a long post, but I think everyone needs to see this before they write another uninformed post. The Asian-Canadian experience in Richmond far pre-dates the immigration boom of the 1990s.

.

Thanks for the post. Very interesting stuff. The more informative the better.

I was aware of the long-standing presence of Japanese and Chinese Canadians in Greater Vancouver, but I am not sure how this could be used (if someone wanted to) to justify Chinese predominance and the requirement for non-Chinese to adapt to it in present-day Richmond.

As you mentioned the Asian presence goes back a long way but has had its ups and downs.

The Richmond area and Greater Vancouver in general still had a dominant anglo population and organizing society and running it was their bailywick (whether this was fair and the exclusion of Asians from the power structure are a whole other matter).

The Japanese and Chinese Canadians of that area are all assimilated today, and saying that somehow the current situation is a form of continuity would seem inaccurate.

It's as if 500,000 people moved from Quebec to Louisiana over the next 10 years, started doing most of their stuff in French, and saying the locals should adapt to French because Louisiana was once a French colony or mainly French-speaking.

There is something of a similar debate in the SW United States with respect to Spanish, and how in the eyes of some the fact that the region was once part of Spain or Mexico, and that some Spanish guys named a bunch of rivers, mountains and misiones (now cities) with Spanish names and built a few cool colonial buildings, this somehow means that people freshly arrived from San Cristobal de las Casas in southern Mexico are as a result entitled to live as much as their lives as possible in Spanish in Phoenix or Houston.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

It seems to me that if mainstream Canada can throw someone in prison for their race and confiscate all their property, the mainstream has no moral authority to dictate what culture and language should be privileged, except when it's a matter of health and safety.

the story of the western world in the 20th century is very much a story of lost moral confidence.

beyond the gratifying and relatively unchallenging decision to vote "no confidence" on one's own country or culture, however, i am not sure that a world of guiltily abstinent powers will prove any more collectively just than its predecessor.

its problems, though, will be more difficult to detect.abstaining from african colonialism, for instance, is not the same thing as establishing a system in which foreign powers' involvement with african resources is particularly benign.

the other problem is that societies who do not believe in themselves, whatever their great qualities, tend ultimately to be replaced by ones that do.

[matthew6]

Originally Posted by Acajack

An emergency situation is just that... an emergency situation. Time is of the essence. The job of the 911 operator is to gather as much info as quicklyt as possible while dispatching the required responders. The person making the call may not know the exact address as these are not always visible. Go check out any type of boulevard-type road and the street number is not always visible from the street and is often quite small and obscure. Many 911 calls involving business locations are placed and responded to with info like "the Mac's Milk on Maple St." or the "Canadian Tire at the corner of Weston and Highlands".

I will make the assumption that a 911 operator has access not only to a callers phone number but also their address? But has this ever been an issue anyways? I can think of plenty of situations where an emergency service might be impeded by something other than a Chinese sign. How about an emergency call to a well to do residence in a neighbourhood with endless cul du sacs and addresses not easily visible from the street? Bad urban planning yes. But illegal? As per your example I suppose someone can say 'the Chinese restaurant on st Laurant just south of Sherbrooke'.

In any case, this is admittedly a bit nit picky, but if someone wants to argue against foreign signs they should stay away from hypotheticals like this.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by matthew6

I will make the assumption that a 911 operator has access not only to a callers phone number but also their address? But has this ever been an issue anyways? I can think of plenty of situations where an emergency service might be impeded by something other than a Chinese sign. How about an emergency call to a well to do residence in a neighbourhood with endless cul du sacs and addresses not easily visible from the street? Bad urban planning yes. But illegal? As per your example I suppose someone can say 'the Chinese restaurant on st Laurant just south of Sherbrooke'.

In any case, this is admittedly a bit nit picky, but if someone wants to argue against foreign signs they should stay away from hypotheticals like this.

It's not really my argument. It's been raised by certain public officials in Richmond as one of the reasons to force businesses to have at least some English (or at least Roman alphabet characters) on their signs. That's why it's been brought up here.

[matthew6]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

the other problem is that societies who do not believe in themselves, whatever their great qualities, tend ultimately to be replaced by ones that do.

I think it is rare, or possibly impossible for a nation to entirely believe in itself. An observer in 1920s Germany could logically conclude that it was heading towards being a socialist state. Sorry for bringing that Germany into it... But it seems to be a popular thing to do....

As far as Canada is concerned one could make the argument that we are more confident in ourselves than ever. We've actually had a turbulent past from the Riel Rebellion to the Winnipeg General Strike to the FLQ crisis.... Of course it is hard to quantify these things. Depends on your point of view too. I won't stake anything on what the future will hold anyway. I'd probably be wrong anyways as everyone else usually is.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

the other problem is that societies who do not believe in themselves, whatever their great qualities, tend ultimately to be replaced by ones that do.

... regardless of whether or not the new society has more qualities than the one it replaced.

Kinda reminds me of this song:

Listen children to a story
That was written long ago,
'Bout a kingdom on a mountain
And the valley-folk below.

On the mountain was a treasure
Buried deep beneath the stone,
And the valley-people swore
They'd have it for their very own.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

So the people of the valley
Sent a message up the hill,
Asking for the buried treasure,
Tons of gold for which they'd kill.

Came an answer from the kingdom,
"With our brothers we will share
All the secrets of our mountain,
All the riches buried there."

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Now the valley cried with anger,
"Mount your horses! Draw your sword!"
And they killed the mountain-people,
So they won their just reward.

Now they stood beside the treasure,
On the mountain, dark and red.
Turned the stone and looked beneath it...
"Peace on Earth" was all it said.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away

[matthew6]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's not really my argument.

Not trying to argue this is an interesting debate. It's hard to come to a conclusion on how to run this thing called society.... And what may be right today might not even be right tomorrow.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

It seems to me that if mainstream Canada can throw someone in prison for their race and confiscate all their property, .

You make it sound like it's happening today as opposed to the 1940s. This has been recognized as a shameful, grave injustice by the Canadian government and as something never to be repeated.

It has nothing to do with contemporary Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

the mainstream has no moral authority to dictate what culture and language should be privileged, except when it's a matter of health and safety.

The chosen languages and culture go much deeper than that. They influence everything from which languages our public schools teach in and what they teach, the languages our public broadcasters produce programming in, to which public holidays we observe...

[logan5]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I sincerely hope that blanketing you in English-only advertisements fills that gaping hole of cultural experience you are currently lacking in Vancouver

You should know that the issue is English and Chinese on signage, not English only.

This sign issue is a symptom of a deeper problem. Chinese culture and Canadian culture are so different and so foreign to each other, to the point that there is very little interaction. There is very little common ground to build off of. This very foreign culture is threatening to people because it has now become a very large presence in Metro Vancouver. It's not just Richmond. Burnaby and Vancouver have a strong Chinese influence, along with growing Chinese communities in other parts of Metro. In the case of Metrotown, towers which attract more affluent Chinese are displacing lower income people in 3 story walk-ups.

This lack of communication, displacement of neighbourhoods, and a very visible presence combine to create mistrust and resentment.

Is harbouring any resentment towards the Chinese community wrong? Probably not a good thing. I don't myself for the most part. But I can certainly understand why people are feeling uncomfortable. If I know that I am making someone feel uncomfortable, I will make an adjustment, otherwise there's going to be a continuing and growing problem.

I know our city isn't perfect, but at the same time it really bugs me when morally superior outsiders think they can pass judgement on us. Unless you live here, you are not capable of understanding its nuances. So point your moral finger at yourself.

[kwoldtimer]

It may have been covered in the thread, but I don't recall seeing it - has anybody asked the Chinese merchants with Chinese-only signs in Richmond what is behind their decision? Has there been any public response by said merchants to suggestions that it might be a thought to include English on their signs?

[1overcosc]

I wonder what the distinctions are between Chinese immigration in Vancouver versus in Toronto and what causes these concerns in Van that don't do so in TO.

My experience with Chinese Ontarians is that while the first generation tends to be fairly separated, their children are very culturally Canadian, although obviously with Chinese influence. Furthermore, there doesn't seem to be any tension. In Markham you'll occasionally find restaurants with Chinese-only signage and no one seems to care.

Perhaps the difference between the two:
-A much larger proportional concentration of Chinese in Vancouver
-Less other groups in Vancouver--Toronto has large numbers of people in practically every race, Vancouver has not many minorities beside Chinese (for example Vancouver has a very small black population relatively speaking)
-Different immigrant profile--Vancouver's Chinese community may have a greater share of nouveau-riche mainlander immigrants than Toronto does.

Any thoughts?