Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I knew you would say that, and I know why.

But seriously, so a bunch of people (people A) can move to established locality X and become the majority, and the primary integration onus is on the people (people B) who were already living there and had been there for quite some time? Assuming that most of the newcomers don't arrive in a place at the exact same time, wouldn't the primary integration onus be on the first trickle of members of people A who arrived in the locality?

I think your timeframe is too short. The onus to integrate for first generation immigrants to Canada has never been very high - obey the law (more or less), pay your taxes (more or less, perhaps less), maybe learn a few words of English or French (more if you can, but don't worry about it, if your kid can translate for you). Isn't that about it?

[Acajack]

I find it interesting that much is being made on here about GlassCity's need to adapt to the new Asian realities of Richmond, but there is little mention of the need for all residents of Richmond (regardless of origin BTW) to adapt to Canadian realities.

GlassCity is not a descendent of United Empire Loyalists to my knowledge, and yet he adapted and integrated.

We've already acknowledged how it is easier for people who are part of large concentrated groups to retain some old country characteristics, but even so is there not still an integration onus on them that is as great as there was on GlassCity (to adapt to Canada) and certainly greater than there is on GlassCity to adapt to an Asian reality that has been implanted in Canada.

Richmond was already a city of more than 100,000 in 1980, and I would suspect that it was much more Anglo-Canadian at the time. Was there not an onus on the successive waves of people from all over the world who have moved there since then to at least make an effort to adapt and integrate with the existing society?

I dunno... perhaps they were excluded from white Anglo-Canadian society.

But for some reason it does not seem to have happened and a parallel reality was at least partially constructed.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I think your timeframe is too short. The onus to integrate for first generation immigrants to Canada has never been very high - obey the law (more or less), pay your taxes (more or less, perhaps less), maybe learn a few words of English or French (more if you can, but don't worry about it, if your kid can translate for you). Isn't that about it?

Not saying this is what is being suggested, but why would GlassCity be hypothetically held to a higher standard with respect to the emerging Asian reality of Richmond, one that is probably less than 30 years old?

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not saying this is what is being suggested, but why would GlassCity be hypothetically held to a higher standard with respect to the emerging Asian reality of Richmond, one that is probably less than 30 years old?

The standard is simply that neighbourhoods evolve and people must engage each other to build the neighbourhood and move it forward. Every neighbourhood in Canada is different, and some neighbourhoods will inevitably be easier or harder to integrate and enjoy yourself in than others. Neighbourhoods are different, people are different, and both are changing and evolving all the time. Maybe GlassCity had a tough time integrating into his neighbourhood. That's too bad. But just because my parents had a tough time growing up in the great depression doesn't mean we should all suffer through a crappy economy because someone had a tough time once. Times change, people change, neighbourhoods change, and the implicit path forward to developing a cohesive community and neighbourhood changes.

I know you are just "putting forth ideas" but it may help to share some practical ways you envision the government can get involved in to counter these perceived "broad phenomenons and trends". Cheer-leading ideas about an abstract cultural mosaic whose rules are to your mind obviously violated by the presence of a foreign language ad isn't doing much to push the conversation forward, unless of course you think banning foreign language signs is sufficient action to creating these cultural utopias you envision.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I find it interesting that much is being made on here about GlassCity's need to adapt to the new Asian realities of Richmond, but there is little mention of the need for all residents of Richmond (regardless of origin BTW) to adapt to Canadian realities.

GlassCity is not a descendent of United Empire Loyalists to my knowledge, and yet he adapted and integrated.

We've already acknowledged how it is easier for people who are part of large concentrated groups to retain some old country characteristics, but even so is there not still an integration onus on them that is as great as there was on GlassCity (to adapt to Canada) and certainly greater than there is on GlassCity to adapt to an Asian reality that has been implanted in Canada.

Richmond was already a city of more than 100,000 in 1980, and I would suspect that it was much more Anglo-Canadian at the time. Was there not an onus on the successive waves of people from all over the world who have moved there since then to at least make an effort to adapt and integrate with the existing society?

I dunno... perhaps they were excluded from white Anglo-Canadian society.

But for some reason it does not seem to have happened and a parallel reality was at least partially constructed.

Interesting comment. But we're talking mostly about first generation immigrants here, and first generation immigrants (and possibly second generation immigrants too) tend to keep a foot in the old world. This is especially easy today where vastly improved technology allows you to live your life as though you were someplace else. The fact that there is a huge critical mass of Chinese people in the lower mainland certainly contributes to that too.

I know people who came here from Europe over 30 years ago and still barely speak a lick of English. Their kids typically adapt fully, even if the kids themselves are immigrants. The self-contained immigrant communities in Winnipeg are not as obvious as the ones in Richmond, but they exist. The point is that the Richmond Chinese are acting the way most first generation immigrants have always acted almost anywhere you go in Canada. It's just more readily noticeable there due to the size of the community.

[Steveston]

My family has been in Richmond since 1900, and we're "non-white, non-Chinese".

Being a "full participant" in your city is what you make of it. Cities change, some faster than others, some in different ways than others. Some long-time residents will think the change is good, some will think otherwise. Some, like me, will try to understand the positive and negative aspects of that change -- enjoy the positives (great dim sum nearby), and try to work around the negatives (learn a bit of Cantonese or Mandarin, to make new residents feel less alienated?).

My ancestors, when they first arrived here, stuck to an enclave of their own ex-pats, took little effort to learn English, and clung to their cultural practices. Their children (my parents), were far more integrated into "the Canadian way", and are fluent in English, and even encouraged (or, at least tolerated) mixed marriages (like mine). Myself, and my kids don't see any difference between people by their outward appearance. Race means absolutely nothing to them. Given that many of them are mixed-race kids, it would be highly hypocritical of them if it did.

As I said before, signage is an extension of a company's marketing/promotional plan. If they only want to appeal to a certain percentage of the market, then that's their choice. Personally, I think it's poor business practice, but it's not my job to tell them how to run their business. If they feel that their sales seem to be lagging in comparison to other stores with multi-lingual signage, and it would be advantageous to them to have English on their signage/promo materials as well, then that's fine.

For anyone to force them to do so, I think, is wrong.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Advertising is not temporal? Really? That's why I keep seeing all those signs advertising Tar Soap and Premium Leaded Gasoline

I meant signs advertising businesses. Poor choice of words I guess.

[Hali87]

I don't really see how salsa dancing or French songs are the same. Maybe a person couldn't "fully participate in their city" without being fluent in the mother tongues of every single person who lived (or visited) there (is this even realistically possible?). But that isn't really the same thing as being able to fully participate in the public realm. The signs are a physical, semi-permanent part of the public realm. Putting free-market "if they needed Anglo customers.." arguments aside, their presence is alienating to the non-Mandarin-speaking, Anglo population. A reminder that there is now a part of their city that's not really for them. Perhaps all of these people could learn Mandarin, but as others have pointed out, why should they be the ones making the concession? They are (for the most part) there simply by virtue of not moving out of their own city. Most of the Mandarin speakers (I assume) made a conscious decision to immigrate to Canada. Should they not be the ones making a concession? Is it unfair to ask those considering immigrating here to try to participate in the society that exists here, rather than simply living their own culture in a linguistic bubble here, and suggesting that we have as much of a responsibility to learn their language as they do ours? I also get the impression that the proposed bill here will be a bit of a turning point, ie. either signs will be required to have some English, or the proportion of Mandarin-only signage will increase over time.

I thought the ability to get by in English or French was a requirement for immigrating to Canada anyway..?

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I think your timeframe is too short. The onus to integrate for first generation immigrants to Canada has never been very high - obey the law (more or less), pay your taxes (more or less, perhaps less), maybe learn a few words of English or French (more if you can, but don't worry about it, if your kid can translate for you). Isn't that about it?

you have to speak or understand english for the citizenship test as its done in english, my friend did his a few years ago, his mom didn't have to do it cause she was old, i think over 55 bypass the normal rules, she got her citizenship without needing to the tests etc. to this day she can't speak a word of english other than maybe hello and thank you.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I knew you would say that, and I know why.

But seriously, so a bunch of people (people A) can move to established locality X and become the majority, and the primary integration onus is on the people (people B) who were already living there and had been there for quite some time? Assuming that most of the newcomers don't arrive in a place at the exact same time, wouldn't the primary integration onus be on the first trickle of members of people A who arrived in the locality?

There is no integration onus on anyone. It's called a melting pot.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I don't really see how salsa dancing or French songs are the same. Maybe a person couldn't "fully participate in their city" without being fluent in the mother tongues of every single person who lived (or visited) there (is this even realistically possible?). But that isn't really the same thing as being able to fully participate in the public realm. The signs are a physical, semi-permanent part of the public realm. Putting free-market "if they needed Anglo customers.." arguments aside, their presence is alienating to the non-Mandarin-speaking, Anglo population. A reminder that there is now a part of their city that's not really for them. Perhaps all of these people could learn Mandarin, but as others have pointed out, why should they be the ones making the concession? They are (for the most part) there simply by virtue of not moving out of their own city. Most of the Mandarin speakers (I assume) made a conscious decision to immigrate to Canada. Should they not be the ones making a concession? Is it unfair to ask those considering immigrating here to try to participate in the society that exists here, rather than simply living their own culture in a linguistic bubble here, and suggesting that we have as much of a responsibility to learn their language as they do ours? I also get the impression that the proposed bill here will be a bit of a turning point, ie. either signs will be required to have some English, or the proportion of Mandarin-only signage will increase over time.

I thought the ability to get by in English or French was a requirement for immigrating to Canada anyway..?

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make, I guess I'm just having a hard time articulating it (maybe I didn't learn English as well as I thought ) Thanks for helping me out.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I knew you would say that, and I know why.

But seriously, so a bunch of people (people A) can move to established locality X and become the majority, and the primary integration onus is on the people (people B) who were already living there and had been there for quite some time? Assuming that most of the newcomers don't arrive in a place at the exact same time, wouldn't the primary integration onus be on the first trickle of members of people A who arrived in the locality?

That's such an outdated, tribalistic and territorial view of things.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

That's such an outdated, tribalistic and territorial view of things.

Well the alternative is that we should all constantly adapt to whatever the majority is at the time. I don't see how that's at all more logical than expecting newcomers to try and include themselves in the city and its culture.

What in your opinion is a modern, tolerant view of things?

[dleung]

18 pages about BC on the Canada forums? Must be a Quebec proxy thread

[MolsonExport]

^did you bother reading it?

[casper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

For those who went to diverse schools where certain specific groups were quite large, was there a rule about kids having to speak English in the school or were they allowed to speak whatever they wanted in the halls, cafeteria, etc.?

I am just wondering, not because of the social engineering aspect some of you might suspect, but on a simple question of disciplinary practicality where a kid can say "I am gonna fucking kill you" or "you're a cocksucking faggot" in a language teachers don't understand...

I did elementary and secondary school in east Vancouver at time when there was no clear ethnic majority. There were no rules about what language kits were allowed or not allowed to use.

It was an English Language school (i.e., not French immersion) so for grade 8, 9 you had to French as your language course. Once you hit grade 10, 11 you had the choice of Fresh, Spanish, Latin, and if I remember correctly there was also the option of two or three Asian languages.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Richmond was already a city of more than 100,000 in 1980, and I would suspect that it was much more Anglo-Canadian at the time. Was there not an onus on the successive waves of people from all over the world who have moved there since then to at least make an effort to adapt and integrate with the existing society?

I dunno... perhaps they were excluded from white Anglo-Canadian society.

But for some reason it does not seem to have happened and a parallel reality was at least partially constructed.

Actually, Richmond and Steveston have housed large Asian populations since foundation in the 1870's. Even then, the Anglo population was ~50%, with Japanese, Aboriginal, and Chinese, and non-Anglo European making up the rest. During Asian immigration bans (1920s-1950s) and internment (1940s), the city declined dramatically, but began to boom again in the 1990s.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

Actually, Richmond and Steveston have housed large Asian populations since foundation in the 1870's. Even then, the Anglo population was ~50%, with Japanese, Aboriginal, and Chinese, and non-Anglo European making up the rest. During Asian immigration bans (1920s-1950s) and internment (1940s), the city declined dramatically, but began to boom again in the 1990s.

I'd be interested in seeing some stats on that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Doug

There is no integration onus on anyone. It's called a melting pot.

You've got things backwards. A melting pot is a very integrative societal model. Newcomers are expected to check their old identities at the door and merge into the new country's.

And Canada does not even espouse the melting pot anyway. It's meant to be multicultural mosaic. Which is in fact a ''melting pot lite'', and somewhat less coercitive with respect to integrative expectations. But integration is expected as well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

That's such an outdated, tribalistic and territorial view of things.

This surprising idea that somehow the burden of adaptation and accommodation should henceforth be primarily borne by the host society in such cases is something you only hear on SSP Canada and perhaps in certain bien pensant Canadian circles.

It smacks of desperation to ''out-tolerate'' the entire world as if self-effacement was somehow a badge of honour.