Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Also, Cambie is still busy. Anybody who says otherwise isn't using it on a regular basis.

Cambie is busy because it is one of the direct connections to downtown (like Granville) from Marine Drive, even though it doesn't have a Fraser River bridge connection to Richmond.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I don't think there's much of a debate about bored or cut-and-cover. After the debacle that was the Canada Line, there's no way we'll ever cut-and-cover a major street again.

I think the key is "a major street" and I'd also add "without compensation to business owners"
- because I think the City as a whole endured quite well through the construction of the Canada Line.

Now, how does that relate to a potential corridor under 10th Ave. (not really a major street until past Alma (?))
and would the lower cost [if so] of cut and cover convince the City of Vancouver to allow such a cheaper construction method
if it's on their dime?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think the key is "a major street" and I'd also add "without compensation to business owners"
- because I think the City as a whole endured quite well through the construction of the Canada Line.

Now, how does that relate to a potential corridor under 10th Ave. (not really a major street until past Alma (?))
and would the lower cost [if so] of cut and cover convince the City of Vancouver to allow such a cheaper construction method
if it's on their dime?

I'm skeptical of people living in houses on 10th Avenue being very enthusiastic about cut and cover on their street.

[spm2013]

If they resist threaten them with a bike lane

[theKB]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think the key is "a major street" and I'd also add "without compensation to business owners"
- because I think the City as a whole endured quite well through the construction of the Canada Line.

Now, how does that relate to a potential corridor under 10th Ave. (not really a major street until past Alma (?))
and would the lower cost [if so] of cut and cover convince the City of Vancouver to allow such a cheaper construction method
if it's on their dime?

wasn't there a lawsuit that the city/translink lost in the end? Or did that end up getting turfed by the supreme court?

At the very least they would have to explore offering grants or refunds to businesses along the line if a cut/cover method is chosen at the very least compensating for the hefty property tax bills small business owners must endure in this city. Obviously it would have to be a scheme that compensated actual businesses and not just land owners sitting with vacant space.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

8th Ave?

i don't know how well an elevated line will fit down 8th ave... I'm sure the residents of that street will love Skytrain 10-20ft from their windows. i am also sure translink has millions and millions of dollars to buy property to build stations; stations are much wider.
as you can see from google street view, not a lot of space:



sure there are some openish areas on 8th, but to run a line the entire way? not practical. of course, though, anything is doable. but just because it could be done, doesn't mean it should be done.

on another note, why would you want to build a major transportation network down practically a back lane; a 3 lane street. well technically 1 lane because of the lack of markings. it would be like building an elevated canada line down ash street.


someone mentioned something about elevated lines being grotesque? well i know i certainly didn't say that. you may like elevated lines, and sometimes they really don't change a fabric of a neighbourhood either. i personally prefer the ExpoLine guide-ways for their shape. that being said, point grey is not just any other neighbourhood. it is filled with classical, albeit less then their used to be, homes. since not everyone lives exactly the same, construction must be changed for things when neighbourhoods change. point grey is one of those places where an elevated line really would just look out of place.

and if you don't go for the looks department, well there is also a major lack of surface space at least until, at minimum, arbutus street. even if you want to elevate the line west of that every street just has homes almost right to the curbs. and whether you like it or not, the property on the west is worth more, they also pay more in taxes, and since everyone on the west is so car dependent, according to what I've seen remarked here , they pay more in a transit gas tax.

but then again, maybe I'm just crazy for sticking up for point grey people by the use of logic and not letting my hate get in the way.

[spm2013]

I love Point Grey and so does Stephen Harper, so no rapid transit via. tunnel or elevated. Win-win.

[cornholio]

The most feasible plan for Broadway skytrain was always a CUT and COVER under 10th with a stacked tunnel and stairless station entrances / exists on to Broadway. I agree that it is unlikely that a elevated guideway could be built, but the cut and cover option is going to be significantly cheaper than a bored tunnel and more functional, with minimal disruptions to traffic and commercial properties during construction. I dont see how Vancouver could justify going bored instead of cut and cover (except to buy votes).

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i would have to agree with this. as much as it technically isn't needed, point grey really is different from a lot of other parts of this city. the guideway really would look out of place in point grey.

i also don't get why people love the elevated lines for the view. since when are public transit systems built to give tourists a view of mountains, or in some parts, really crappy areas of the city.

i feel i must apologize, though, to all the west side haters as they seem to outnumber people like myself. no, i don't live in point grey nor did i grow up there.

Same reason that the city of Vancouver does not like blank walls. Eyes on the street or at the least a perception of eyes on the street.

[GlassCity]

I don't think elevated trains having anything to do with eyes on the street. I don't get the view argument either. You get to look around for 20 minutes twice a day, while people living there have to look at a bland concrete viaduct looming above their homes constantly.

[Metro-One]

Well if you don't get it you don't get it, but many people do get it.

That 20 minutes of a view in the morning and the evening can really help a person's mood traveling to and from work / school vs. being in an underground tunnel.

Also, the eyes on the street argument is true, it gives a sense of observation, especially around stations.

Also, elevated guideways are just part of being in an urban area with a large population. People around here in Japan seem to live next to and even under them with no problem.

That being said, along Broadway I do support a subway due to the countless conditions explained to death on this forum already, but near and in UBC elevated is just fine.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I don't get the view argument either. You get to look around for 20 minutes twice a day, while people living there have to look at a bland concrete viaduct looming above their homes constantly.

If you don't think that a more pleasant transit experience has an impact on the number of people willing to ride it then you're not living in the same reality that I am...

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

If you don't think that a more pleasant transit experience has an impact on the number of people willing to ride it then you're not living in the same reality that I am...

People just want to get to work fast and conveniently. I don't think the Canada Line's ridership would rise if it was above ground, nor do I think the Expo Line's ridership would fall if it was buried. Everyone just stares at their phone anyway.

[memememe76]

but then again, maybe I'm just crazy for sticking up for point grey people by the use of logic and not letting my hate get in the way.

Where is all this Point Grey hate that posters are seeing? As a Surrey resident, I guess I don't see it. Liking elevated lines does not equal hating Point Grey.

There is a reason why people who don't get a seat prefer to stand closer to the doors. It's an opportunity to look out the window. There is a reason young kids gravitate towards those huge windows in the front of each Canada Line train.

Also, elevated lines serve a practical purpose. You can better time approaching the Station and getting on a train with little wait on an elevated line. If you're leaving Metrotown, you can see whether a train is approaching or not. If one is coming, you can hurry across the overpass. If one is not approaching, you can slow it down and not have to pass by the people (that escalator is always so crowded, especially).

In Surrey Central, I can see from the train if the 96B line is at the stop or not.

while people living there have to look at a bland concrete viaduct looming above their homes constantly.

People living in Surrey, Burnaby, New Westminster (do people prefer Columbia over New West?), Coquitlam and Richmond endure this too. Even the people at Olympic Village! And, eventually, the residents of Marine Drive. I have *never* heard any complaints except in this thread. I mean, there were soooo many critics of the OV and the elevated Skytrain Line was not one of those critics' talking points.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by memememe76

Where is all this Point Grey hate that posters are seeing? As a Surrey resident, I guess I don't see it. Liking elevated lines does not equal hating Point Grey.

There is a reason why people who don't get a seat prefer to stand closer to the doors. It's an opportunity to look out the window. There is a reason young kids gravitate towards those huge windows in the front of each Canada Line train.

Also, elevated lines serve a practical purpose. You can better time approaching the Station and getting on a train with little wait on an elevated line. If you're leaving Metrotown, you can see whether a train is approaching or not. If one is coming, you can hurry across the overpass. If one is not approaching, you can slow it down and not have to pass by the people (that escalator is always so crowded, especially).

In Surrey Central, I can see from the train if the 96B line is at the stop or not.



People living in Surrey, Burnaby, New Westminster (do people prefer Columbia over New West?), Coquitlam and Richmond endure this too. Even the people at Olympic Village! And, eventually, the residents of Marine Drive. I have *never* heard any complaints except in this thread. I mean, there were soooo many critics of the OV and the elevated Skytrain Line was not one of those critics' talking points.

Well it's not like you'll run for a train anyway considering they come every two minutes.

I know they do, I'm not just sticking up for West Siders. I just think if we have the opportunity to stop building them above people's houses we should take it. I've noticed if you read planning documents about new Skytrain Lines, they'll always put under the con list for elevated that it's unpleasing to look at for the community.

I also want to say I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here. I mean I do prefer underground to elevated, but I don't care nearly as much about it as I think I'm sounding on here

[Jimbo604]

There's no money secured for this project to start, so that's the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Route selection, elevated or tunnel, station location, etc are all very much secondary to that point.

I couldn't help but sigh a bit driving through the Massey tunnel the other day and seeing a sign for the new tunnel replacement bridge with the words "construction starting in 2017", just over two years away and with the Broadway tunnel being total pie in the sky at this point.

However, it makes sense. The new bridge has a funding source - tolls, and therefore, it is moving ahead. Transit users pay a toll, their fare, but there isn't anything left over from the fare after operations, etc. to pay for a Broadway train. How much would fares have to be raised to pay for the tunnel? I'm not sure.. anyone have a sourced article relating to that? I don't think that would idea would fly. So Broadway isn't moving ahead.

[Jimbo604]

Originally Posted by cornholio

The most feasible plan for Broadway skytrain was always a CUT and COVER under 10th with a stacked tunnel and stairless station entrances / exists on to Broadway. I agree that it is unlikely that a elevated guideway could be built, but the cut and cover option is going to be significantly cheaper than a bored tunnel and more functional, with minimal disruptions to traffic and commercial properties during construction. I dont see how Vancouver could justify going bored instead of cut and cover (except to buy votes).

A Vancouver politician even half-seriously mentioning the idea of doing cut and cover again would be committing political suicide. People's memories are short but "cut and cover" is still deeply linked with "disastrous".

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by memememe76

People living in Surrey, Burnaby, New Westminster (do people prefer Columbia over New West?), Coquitlam and Richmond endure this too. Even the people at Olympic Village! And, eventually, the residents of Marine Drive. I have *never* heard any complaints except in this thread. I mean, there were soooo many critics of the OV and the elevated Skytrain Line was not one of those critics' talking points.

I would counter that most of those residential neighbourhoods were developed or redeveloped immediately after the Skytrain came through, or had a wide right of way that wasn't really addressed by housing.

Case in point almost, all of the Burnaby Expo line as built on the BC Hydro rail corridor which is now heavily treed. Almost no houses directly face the train and it's essentially a linear park when you live nearby (and yes, I used to live a half block away).

The Lougheed segment of the M-Line also has next to no structures which both predate the line and face the guideway. Anything built after the fact is designed to not have your deck or bedroom within spitting distance of the train.

Almost every structure on Broadway would be shadowed by an elevated guideway, let alone a station. There's not much of a setback. This could eventually lead to a situation in the future where we tear down the guideway and go underground like New York has, meaning we build the same rapid transit line twice.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Jimbo604

There's no money secured for this project to start, so that's the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Route selection, elevated or tunnel, station location, etc are all very much secondary to that point.

All those options dictate the price, so they need to be settled first before funding can be provided.

[Genauso]

Has there been ANY news? ANYTHING change?

No?

Ditto for the Arbutus Corridor thread; CP has done zero work to remove the trees and bushes growing inside their tracks, something they've never been prevented from doing. Given the rotted ties and degraded railbed, I don't think they employ anyone foolish enough to run any kind of weight on the tracks in anything but bone dry conditions, even if they actually intend to run empty trains just to get attention.

So if there is no information, what are all the posts about? Probably an emotional support group by people who feel oppressed by the cost of living in Vancouver compared to the income they make locally. Not because The West Side is oppressing them, or getting better value on their taxes. Just because they are seen as not oppressed. So the emotional support group gathers when one poster inevitably makes a reference establishing a difference between Us and Them, followed by a load of other posters chiming in to repeat the reference or some variation of it to establish that they are not alone and that they belong.

Listen, I get it. Housing costs in Vancouver are high, very much so historically. But none of these posts will make you feel better, that is obvious to anyone who sees the recently posted thread list to be clogged with them all for no reason. Not only should no one care what you have to say, no one but yourselves do.

How many times have people gone out of their way to type "creme de la creme" based off of what appears to be a single quote from a newspaper article years ago? Do I dare search and find out, will that stop the nonsense?

Sorry if I didn't actually read this thread, but please try to tell me I'm wrong.

If you want to discuss the planning impact, or costs for various options of a new Skytrain line (which is not on the table under Metro Vancouver's and Translinks plans until 2040 where they assume zero growth west of Boundary Rd -- North Vancouver, Vancouver, Richmond, Delta/Tsawassen, White Rock) -- then don't stray too far into the woods, compare to the other areas WHEN and where Skytrain was actually built.

Don't just arbitrarily argue that it should be elevated along Broadway because Burnaby grew up around the Expo line after it was built. It costs a lot more money to buy the rights to infringe on a property one by one, than it is to build around them. The Evergreen cost more than just its ROW, thankfully perhaps not much is built near it, because if it's not negotiated in good faith then it will be paid out in court -- ditto for why besides being technically challenging, a 30 minute airport trip along the Arbutus railway corridor above ground was not going to happen.

And don't just arbitrarily argue that the line should end at Arbutus because of a bargaining stance Translink took with UBC without having even taking a virtual drive down Broadway in Google Maps. Outside of the Canada Line north of Broadway, west of Arbutus on Broadway would be the densest neighbourhood Skytrain has ever been built in for both jobs and living