The Great Canadian Skyline Thread!

[travis3000]

^ if the current rate of construction continues over the next 10 years then statistically TO will overtake Chicago in both 100m, 150m, and 200m towers. The math was broken down by an urban Toronto forum member I remember reading the entire thing it was quite interesting. While yes TO has 57 towers built and u/c the city also has another 70+ over that height proposed. Once you realize the unreal scale at which TO is building and has been you'll see the possibility is there , not 100% but it's within reach.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by franktko

You guys are forgetting how big Chicago is. Their skyline has 120 towers over 150m compared to TO's 57 (that's built and U/C), its metro population close to 10 millions... I don't see TO surpassing Chicago anytime soon.

No one is saying Toronto is bigger than Chicago "RIGHT NOW"

The divergence is at flight plan (trajectory). Toronto is building/constructing way more. Hell, for a while there Toronto was outbuilding New York City 2 to 1.

[franktko]

I certainly agree that in terms of construction/proposals, Toronto is the hottest place on the continent! But I think it's a special moment in time of the life of this city (boom) and I probably wouldn't make 10 years projections based on this.

[RyLucky]

I was in both cities this summer. Bluntly, here's my take:

Points for Chicago: Millennium Park beats Trinity Bellwoods, Mag Mile beats Dundas Square, Chicago River beats no river, waterfront is way better, overall - skyscrapers are more interesting and diverse (though that may change as Toronto incorporate and create new styles), better traffic management

Points for Toronto: No km wide ring of crap low-density industrial land surrounding the core in every direction like Chicago, way better mixed-income neighbourhoods (Wicker Park was the closest thing I saw to a hip urban neighbourhood in Chicago; Toronto has many areas at least as interesting), slower cars (better for pedestrian/patio environments), better international cuisine, greenery and architecture at UofT, Chicago has nothing quite like Yorkville and nothing quite like Kensington Market

Both are amazing, fairly-clean, big important cities with (nearly) world-class museums, vital economies and culture. In both, transit is great for some routes and awful for others. In both, there is limited greenspace throughout the city. They face many of the same challenges. Overall, Chicago probably has higher highs and lower lows; Toronto is more inclusive and diverse, and that is reflected in its land use. One of my favourite things about Chicago was the revitalized river, water front, and Millennium Park - all things that Toronto would be wise to emulate before these areas are covered in condos. If Toronto improves its public infrastructure and keeps up its pace of growth, by 2030 nobody will be making this comparison.

[caltrane74]

Last week Toronto City council approved 750 storeys worth of development at $23 billion dollars. That alone will likely take 5-7 years to complete. Let's not even go into the proposals which are still waiting for city approval and those that have yet to be submitted. Like I said, the long game is Toronto's to lose.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

I was in both cities this summer. Bluntly, here's my take:

Points for Chicago: Millennium Park beats Trinity Bellwoods, Mag Mile beats Dundas Square, Chicago River beats no river, waterfront is way better, overall - skyscrapers are more interesting and diverse (though that may change as Toronto incorporate and create new styles), better traffic management

Points for Toronto: No km wide ring of crap low-density industrial land surrounding the core in every direction like Chicago, way better mixed-income neighbourhoods (Wicker Park was the closest thing I saw to a hip urban neighbourhood in Chicago; Toronto has many areas at least as interesting), slower cars (better for pedestrian/patio environments), better international cuisine, greenery and architecture at UofT, Chicago has nothing quite like Yorkville and nothing quite like Kensington Market

Both are amazing, fairly-clean, big important cities with (nearly) world-class museums, vital economies and culture. In both, transit is great for some routes and awful for others. In both, there is limited greenspace throughout the city. They face many of the same challenges. Overall, Chicago probably has higher highs and lower lows; Toronto is more inclusive and diverse, and that is reflected in its land use. One of my favourite things about Chicago was the revitalized river, water front, and Millennium Park - all things that Toronto would be wise to emulate before these areas are covered in condos. If Toronto improves its public infrastructure and keeps up its pace of growth, by 2030 nobody will be making this comparison.

Interestingly enough the only points I disagree on are Millennium Park and the neighbourhoods. While I think Toronto has very strong neighbourhoods outside downtown, so does Chicago. Wicker Park is only scratching the surface. When I was in the city this summer we spent most our time outside the downtown area.

And while Millennium Park (Grant Park) is pretty enough, IMO it's fairly useless as an urban space. It's far too big to experience as anything but a tourist, and the security seemed overbearing. I'll take Trinity Bellwoods and a beer any day.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by niwell

Interestingly enough the only points I disagree on are Millennium Park and the neighbourhoods. While I think Toronto has very strong neighbourhoods outside downtown, so does Chicago. Wicker Park is only scratching the surface. When I was in the city this summer we spent most our time outside the downtown area.

And while Millennium Park (Grant Park) is pretty enough, IMO it's fairly useless as an urban space. It's far too big to experience as anything but a tourist, and the security seemed overbearing. I'll take Trinity Bellwoods and a beer any day.

To be fair, I didn't venture from the core that often. And I sort of know what you mean wrt to Millennium... I think Chicago is still figuring out how to incorporate it (as opposed to Central Park or Prince's Island). When I was there it was packed with bicycles, tourists, and festival goers.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by franktko

I certainly agree that in terms of construction/proposals, Toronto is the hottest place on the continent! But I think it's a special moment in time of the life of this city (boom) and I probably wouldn't make 10 years projections based on this.

I don't think this can be considered a normal building cycle any more. Increasingly this looks like one of those rare occasions when a city experiences a multi-decade boom that transforms it into a vastly different place. New York went through a similar thing 1880-1930 and Toronto may be witnessing something similar. Toronto is entering year 9 of crazy growth.

Regarding the Toronto - Chicago comparison, would you consider a projection based on Built, U/C, and Proposed? I did this tabulation 6 months ago so it doesn't include any of the new proposals over the last half year. I included the CN Tower as it has visual impact despite not being a 'building'.

In 2-3 Years

Built, U/C

# of Buildings 400m+
Chicago 1
Toronto 1

# of Buildings 300-399m
Chicago 3
Toronto 0

# of Buildings 200-299m
Chicago 24
Toronto 19

# of Buildings 100-199m
Chicago 278
Toronto 235

# of Buildings 50-99m
Chicago 636
Toronto 1028

_________________________________________________________________


A snap shot to 2020?

Proposals aren't a sure thing, but if they get built this is how it will pan out. It's only in super tall buildings where Toronto would still trail.

Toronto would be ahead in 3 of the 5 categories. In the 2 categories where Chicago is ahead we're really just talking about 6 buildings. 6 monumental buildings for sure, but overall this would be getting close to a dead heat. 5 years later? My money is on Toronto.

Built, U/C, Proposed

# of Buildings 400m+
Chicago 2
Toronto 1

# of Buildings 300-399m
Chicago 6
Toronto 1

# of Buildings 200-299m
Chicago 32
Toronto 36

# of Buildings 100-199m
Chicago 301
Toronto 329

# of Buildings 50-99m
Chicago 651
Toronto 1105

[GreaterMontréal]

Canal Lachine

• Video Link

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

As much as I hate the endless Chicago comparisons, that city is the only one that seems to be on the same level as Toronto. NYC is miles ahead and everyone else is miles behind.

I don't think people were arguing the Melbourne was on the same level as Toronto. The GGH is more populated than Melbourne and Sydney put together. The argument is that the built form feels very much like Toronto and the 2 cities fill the same role within their respective countries.

Melbourne is a mini-Toronto.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by niwell

Interestingly enough the only points I disagree on are Millennium Park and the neighbourhoods. While I think Toronto has very strong neighbourhoods outside downtown, so does Chicago. Wicker Park is only scratching the surface. When I was in the city this summer we spent most our time outside the downtown area.

And while Millennium Park (Grant Park) is pretty enough, IMO it's fairly useless as an urban space. It's far too big to experience as anything but a tourist, and the security seemed overbearing. I'll take Trinity Bellwoods and a beer any day.

100% Agreed. The urban area is vast compared to a post war child like Toronto. By next year, I would say the waterfronts will be on par. In another decade, Toronto should have the advantage. Definitely, a trend to elevate Chicago's waterfront and slight Torontos.

[franktko]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I don't think this can be considered a normal building cycle any more. Increasingly this looks like one of those rare occasions when a city experiences a multi-decade boom that transforms it into a vastly different place. New York went through a similar thing 1880-1930 and Toronto may be witnessing something similar. Toronto is entering year 9 of crazy growth.

Well if you think this crazy growth will continue until 2025, then I understand why you think Toronto will surpass Chicago... I just don't believe it will. It's not like the entire European continent is moving to Canada like it did in NY in those years...

Originally Posted by isaidso

I don't think people were arguing the Melbourne was on the same level as Toronto. The GGH is more populated than Melbourne and Sydney put together. The argument is that the built form feels very much like Toronto and the 2 cities fill the same role within their respective countries.

Melbourne is a mini-Toronto.

You are on quite a high here my friend. The two put together are 9 millions. Unless GGH means all of southern Ontario

[RyLucky]

Thanks for that, Isaido. Very interesting. I didn't realize Chicago had so many 200 m+ buildings and so few 50-99 m buildings relative to TO. Just an assumption, but it seems to me that the use of buildings is also quite different, with TO having many more tall residential buildings/condos - perhaps accounting for many of the potential 1105 50-99 m projects that will be up by 2020.

Originally Posted by isaidso

I don't think this can be considered a normal building cycle any more. Increasingly this looks like one of those rare occasions when a city experiences a multi-decade boom that transforms it into a vastly different place.

I think you're right here, and I hear this sentiment a lot. It's kind of a perfect storm of low interest rates, unprecedented globalization and international wealth, Canadian urbanism and paradigm shift of urban image in Canada, historically late family starts, a city choked by congestion, tried and true building tech, financial and political stability in Canada, receptivity to immigration, and population growth in the region... It's much more than a regular boom.

Other cities in Canada (even other cities in the GTA!) are witnessing similar phenomena, unceasing growth that will fundamentally change the nature of the city, though on smaller scales.

In 100 years, our grandkids will be communicating via skynet forum, admiring the fine steel and glass buildings of the early-mid 2000's pre-polar-ice-melt period.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by franktko

Well if you think this crazy growth will continue until 2025, then I understand why you think Toronto will surpass Chicago... I just don't believe it will. It's not like the entire European continent is moving to Canada like it did in NY in those years...

The population growth isn't quite the same, but the world is arriving on Toronto's doorstep. New York transformed into a big global centre over those decades and the same thing is occurring here. And I am increasingly of the belief that this growth is the new normal. If it lasts another 10-15 years, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Originally Posted by franktko

You are on quite a high here my friend. The two put together are 9 millions. Unless GGH means all of southern Ontario

No, the GGH doesn't mean all of southern Ontario. The GGH is at roughly 9.2 million today. I don't mind you questioning my data, but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't be rude about it. Btw, the GGH is similar in area to the Bay Area in California.


Courtesy of Vid

[401_King]

Originally Posted by franktko

You are on quite a high here my friend. The two put together are 9 millions. Unless GGH means all of southern Ontario

This is simply incorrect.

[SkahHigh]

At the 2011 census, the population of the GTA was 5,583,064. Nuff said.

[middeljohn]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

At the 2011 census, the population of the GTA was 5,583,064. Nuff said

No the population of Toronto CMA was 5,583,064. The GTA also includes Oshawa and Burlington, so in 2011 the GTA was just, just under 6 million. By now (or next census at least) the CMA should be about 6 and the GTA 6.5 million and the GTHA about 7 million.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

Thanks for that, Isaido. Very interesting. I didn't realize Chicago had so many 200 m+ buildings and so few 50-99 m buildings relative to TO. Just an assumption, but it seems to me that the use of buildings is also quite different, with TO having many more tall residential buildings/condos - perhaps accounting for many of the potential 1105 50-99 m projects that will be up by 2020.

You're welcome. Yes, Chicago is more heavily skewed towards taller buildings (200m+), and more skewed towards office. Toronto has tons of buildings in the 50-150m range. Chicago has few buildings in that range by comparison. In other words, there's a bigger drop off in Chicago.

Originally Posted by RyLucky

I think you're right here, and I hear this sentiment a lot. It's kind of a perfect storm of low interest rates, unprecedented globalization and international wealth, Canadian urbanism and paradigm shift of urban image in Canada, historically late family starts, a city choked by congestion, tried and true building tech, financial and political stability in Canada, receptivity to immigration, and population growth in the region... It's much more than a regular boom.

Other cities in Canada (even other cities in the GTA!) are witnessing similar phenomena, unceasing growth that will fundamentally change the nature of the city, though on smaller scales.

In 100 years, our grandkids will be communicating via skynet forum, admiring the fine steel and glass buildings of the early-mid 2000's pre-polar-ice-melt period.

I started thinking about this very subject in great depth about 2-3 years ago. Toronto (and Canada) really seem to be hitting that tipping point where our cities are coming of age and experiencing unprecedented growth. Toronto is a magnified version of what the country as a whole is witnessing.

We've lived in the shadow of the US for a long time, but that era is coming to an end. I hear Americans echo those sentiments as did Tony Blair a few years ago. Canada is a nation in ascendency.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by middeljohn

No the population of Toronto CMA was 5,583,064. The GTA also includes Oshawa and Burlington, so in 2011 the GTA was just, just under 6 million. By now (or next census at least) the CMA should be about 6 and the GTA 6.5 million and the GTHA about 7 million.

My mistake, but I really don't see where the 9 million comes from...

[middeljohn]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

My mistake, but I really don't see where the 9 million comes from...

9 million includes KWCG + Niagara = 1.1 million, Barrie =150k, Peterborough = 100k, Brantford = 100k, and rest of hinterland around also adds up to a few hundred thousand.

If Canada were to use the US methodology for compiling metro populations it's very likely that Toronto's MSA would be the GTA and the CSA would also include Hamilton, Niagara, Barrie and possibly KWCG, which is why the Golden Horseshoe is referenced on here so often. This also adds to why Toronto feels so much bigger than its official metro population, because in reality it is.