South Fraser Perimeter Road/Highway 17 Extension | Completed

[red-paladin]

While it's true that the intersection could have been an interchange, and the curves could be better, I don't think anyone can defensibly claim the road quality is dangerous and deficient. I really believe it's negligent / ill-trained truck drivers that is the overwhelming factor. We're just lucky that 2-3 people aren't killed each time a semi falls over.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Another day, another rollover...

https://twitter.com/deltapolice/status/497034600179183616


Source: Delta RCMP Twitter.

That better not be another Evergreen Line guideway segment....

[libtard]

This highway is the definition of mickey mouse

So many tight corners and bad angles. The physics of that 91 connector intersection is completely off.

Where 17 and 17A meet is a travesty

[Infrequent Poster]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Or turn the intersections into interchanges like they should have been in the first place with correct road curving.

This is the only correct answer, imho.

[DKaz]

I don't think so. The original design called for a diamond interchange which still would've enable truckers to make left and right turns too fast. We need freeflow flyovers that trucks can handle at 60 km/h+.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Sorry, don't care about that. Police time, delays for everybody else. This costs us all.

Lol well can't disagree.

[gkz]

Original concept alignment:

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by DKaz

I don't think so. The original design called for a diamond interchange which still would've enable truckers to make left and right turns too fast. We need freeflow flyovers that trucks can handle at 60 km/h+.

That's not the issue. I've seen trucks almost flip quite a few times on SFPR at this intersection specifically as I drive it every day and it is 99% of the time a result of them "running the yellow" trying to not get stuck at a red light.

Sometimes they are going straight through a red anyway because our through light turns green and they still turn in front of everyone at full speed.

So the interchanges would at least get rid of the light and the need to beat the red light causing them to go into the corner with excessive speed.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

While it's true that the intersection could have been an interchange, and the curves could be better, I don't think anyone can defensibly claim the road quality is dangerous and deficient. I really believe it's negligent / ill-trained truck drivers that is the overwhelming factor. We're just lucky that 2-3 people aren't killed each time a semi falls over.

Oh absolutely. Correct road design would just have minimized the issue. The true issue right now is excessive speed and turning corners way to quickly. You're spot on that if they drove with due care and attention, and didn't try to run amber/red lights, we'd probably have had no flips so far on the SFPR.

Still, load shift happens quite easy since most trailer/cargo loaders are paid for speed so they don't take a lot of time correctly balancing. Combine that with impatient drives also paid by the container and their willingness to run amber/red lights, and a complete lack of police enforcement.

They put all these pull out stations for the commercial vehicle inspectors, and they have all these cops patrolling for speed, yet I never see the commercial vehicle guys set up in the pull out spots, or sitting near intersections, or the cops pulling over trucks for speeding instead of cars.

[Mininari]

Well, this issue is getting official attention now:
I don't know if it will do any good, but now might be a good time for everyone who cares about this to write a strongly-worded letter to the Minister of Transportation. This 'flagship transportation' project is quickly becoming an embarrassment on the reliability side, and don't get me started on comparing to new roads in other jurisdictions (Stoney Trail, Anthony Henday, etc).

http://www.news1130.com/2014/08/06/delta-police-questioning-design-of-south-fraser-perimeter-road/


Delta Police questioning design of South Fraser Perimeter Road
There have been five rollovers since December
Simon Druker and Anita Bathe August 6, 2014 4:53 pm

..
DELTA (NEWS1130) – Delta Police and the province are trying to figure out why a string of semi truck crashes have happened on the new South Fraser Perimeter Road near Highway 91.

Police believe there may be a design flaw on the road which opened back in September.

“There have been three in the last two months and five at that location since it opened,” explains Sgt. Sara Swallow.

This stretch is on Highway 17 at the Highway 91 connector, most of the accidents have not involved excessive speed.
..

[Metro-One]

While I do feel this is largely the drivers' fault for all these rollovers (for goodness sakes if they can't navigate the SFPR how do they even have a chance to safely drive along the Lougheed Highway, the #11, Knight Street, the Mary Hill Bypass, etc...) this could be a good tool in getting the province to build what should have been interchanges to begin with.

[whatnext]

How Mickey Mouse that we can't build a decent highway in BC anymore.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

While I do feel this is largely the drivers' fault for all these rollovers (for goodness sakes if they can't navigate the SFPR how do they even have a chance to safely drive along the Lougheed Highway, the #11, Knight Street, the Mary Hill Bypass, etc...) this could be a good tool in getting the province to build what should have been interchanges to begin with.

And yet this intersection in particular is the one with all the rollovers... while I'm sure some of the same drivers seem not to have a problem with those other locations.

Over the long term, enforcement will cost more than fixing the interchange. It seems pretty clear that the design of this intersection is not suitable for the speed of traffic that it gets.... or it's non-congruent to the rest of the road network in the area. For example, if you have a wide road with wide lanes and a hairpin turn, it's an unexpected hazard. wide roads and lanes communicate speed to the driver. narrow lanes communicate "slow down." It seems there is a breakdown in the communication between the road and driver.

Don't put up a sign an post police officers to band-aid the problem, FIX the problem.

[makr3trkr]

comment from a trucker:

"I’m a trucker. I haul garbage, lots of garbage, construction waste, and asbestos.
That intersection is BRUTAL to turn on……..the road is pitched too steep.
Even going super slow you can feel the weight shifting in your trailer. It makes for extremely nerve racking turns.

During the CONSTRUCTION of that intersection, BEFORE paving, when the road base was compacted for the final time, some of the off highway articulated dump trucks owned by the company were having issues making that turn………….

HOWEVER…..having said that…..

there are some dumbasses lately that RIP thru that intersection trying to beat the yellow……….and you get flipped trucks.

not [all of] of us are idiots, and yes the road design is flawed.

---hans"

http://www.news1130.com/2014/08/06/delta...-perimeter-road/comment-page-4/#comments

[go_leafs_go02]

The other issue here is that queues for left turning vehicles get very long, and add significant delays which adds to frustration and makes trucks and large vehicles run the yellow/red at the end of the left turn signal and as they enter the vehicle with a higher speed, combined with the tight turning radius - it makes it easy to flip.

Some responsibility should be held to the drivers, but this intersection is extremely busy and has significant truck turning volumes. Certainly it should have been built as an interchange in the first place, and I hope these incidents result in the interchange as what was originally planned.

[makr3trkr]

http://www.theprovince.com/Repeated+truc...raser+Perimeter+Road/10097812/story.html
Jennifer Saltman, The Province August 7, 2014

"Police say the trucks that have rolled over were negotiating the outward-sloping curve while turning on and off Highway 17 and travelling well under the 80 km/h speed limit when the accidents happened.

Delta police believe the road design and construction could have contributed to the crashes. The road in the area slopes in two directions: downhill north-south and northeast-to-southwest."

=======================

They are stating five rollovers total, with 4 at that intersection, but there have been at least three others (one near Tannery, one in Fraser Heights, one or two more south of 99).

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by makr3trkr

http://www.theprovince.com/Repeated+truc...raser+Perimeter+Road/10097812/story.html
Jennifer Saltman, The Province August 7, 2014

"Police say the trucks that have rolled over were negotiating the outward-sloping curve while turning on and off Highway 17 and travelling well under the 80 km/h speed limit when the accidents happened.

Delta police believe the road design and construction could have contributed to the crashes. The road in the area slopes in two directions: downhill north-south and northeast-to-southwest."

=======================

They are stating five rollovers total, with 4 at that intersection, but there have been at least three others (one near Tannery, one in Fraser Heights, one or two more south of 99).

Errr could that be a misquote on the part of the news article? I can't imagine a Delta Police mentioning the speed limit, on a left turn. The speed limit making a left turn isn't the same as a speed limit on the straight.

Just like the speed limit on KGB may be 60kph but it would be ridiculous to do 60kph turning left onto 88th Avenue off of KGB... just as it is ridiculous to even turn left in that intersection @ 80 or even 70kph or I'd argue 50kph in a truck fully loaded.

I still stand by my original statement though that it should be an interchange with correct banking.

[makr3trkr]

http://www.southdeltaleader.com/news/pol...lover-incident-at-intersection-1.1302010
Adrian MacNair / South Delta Leader
August 7, 2014

"Police are concerned that the road design/construction could be a contributing factor to these collisions,
and that the design of the intersection amplifies the other factors involved in the rollovers.

"The roadway in this area slopes in two directions–downhill north-to-south, but also northeast to southwest,"
said A/Sgt. Sarah Swallow. "It is quite apparent if you stand at the intersection and look at the roadway."

Although the speed limit through the area is 80 km/h, speed has not been a factor in the rollovers."

[makr3trkr]

http://www.surreyleader.com/news/270367761.html
by Jeff Nagel - Surrey North Delta Leader
posted Aug 7, 2014

"[Delta Police Acting Sgt. Sarah Swallow] said the 12-foot drop in grade to the bottom of the interchange means truck loads can easily shift and that momentum can contribute to a rig tipping over on the tricky tilt.

"We're not saying if you made this a flat road the issue would go away," she said. "But we are concerned ... the design is amplifying other factors in these rollovers."

[Most] of the rollovers have happened at low speed as trucks negotiate the downhill curve."

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jhausner

I still stand by my original statement though that it should be an interchange with correct banking.

Yes. It seems to me that Vancouver traffic engineering shows a marked preference for expressway+traffic light interchanges.
The arterial road system on which Vancouver has relied for so many years is rather small-town, yet has gained a reverential regard here.
I don't think you'd find this as much in Toronto, Montreal, Seattle ...