Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Different members of the same family own Moosehead (the brewery and the brand) and the Oland Brewery (which is the main Halifax facility that makes Labatt/InBev products, including Keiths)... I think. Presumably the Moosehead-Olands live in New Brunswick, though I could be wrong.

The Oland Brewery in Halifax has no connection to the family and has not since the 1970s. In fact last I heard a few years ago, one of the Oland brothers on that side of the family was flogging beer for Garrison.

The NB Olands do own Moosehead, but that is not a rich company these days.

[c-way-dude]

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1226274-halifax-legacy-funding-ok-d

[ILoveHalifax]

I had one ear/eye to the council session yesterday.
Seems one of our great councillors (you all can guess who) moved to have the stadium removed from all future discussion. Luckily the rest of council did not vote for her motion.
The mayor left his chair to comment on the motion. He seems to think he has some great possibilities for CFL and a stadium.

[q12]

Source

New turf at SMU

[curnhalio]

That $$ probably could have been better spent on more seating at the stadium itself. I thought the "old" turf had been put in fairly recently, like last five years or so.

[counterfactual]

I think we need a new stadium regardless of whether we get a CFL team.

Hell, the fact that Moncton is getting to host Women's World Cup while we, the major economic engine in Maritimes, twiddle our thumbs on sidelines, is a wake-up call...

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

I think we need a new stadium regardless of whether we get a CFL team.

Hell, the fact that Moncton is getting to host Women's World Cup while we, the major economic engine in Maritimes, twiddle our thumbs on sidelines, is a wake-up call...

$60,000,000 to host a game between teams we have no interest in. Most of the action is far away from the Maritimes and Moncton is getting the scraps.
The province is bust and it would be political suicide for McNeil to put a nickel into a white elephant.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Colin May

$60,000,000 to host a game between teams we have no interest in. Most of the action is far away from the Maritimes and Moncton is getting the scraps.
The province is bust and it would be political suicide for McNeil to put a nickel into a white elephant.

Speak for yourself, man.

As for the provincial budget, we're only "bust" because of ridiculous growth in healthcare spending. Over a half of our budget (almost two/thirds)-- $4.5 billion-- is spent every year on health care; roughly 13% of our GDP. The money that we would spend on a stadium (and really, almost every other expenditure, education included) is a drop in the bucket by comparison.

Health care is growing massive fattening elephant crushing anything. Not any piddly stadium.

Perspective.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Speak for yourself, man.

As for the provincial budget, we're only "bust" because of ridiculous growth in healthcare spending. Over a half of our budget (almost two/thirds)-- $4.5 billion-- is spent every year on health care; roughly 13% of our GDP. The money that we would spend on a stadium (and really, almost every other expenditure, education included) is a drop in the bucket by comparison.

Health care is growing massive fattening elephant crushing anything. Not any piddly stadium.

Perspective.

Exactly, and the reason the health care budget is going through the roof is because the average age in NS is rapidly increasing. The reason the average age is going up is because young people are leaving in droves. Young people are leaving because we lack amenities found elsewhere like stadiums.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Empire

Young people are leaving because we lack amenities found elsewhere like stadiums.

This might be true to a point but I'm 26 and most people my age that I know who have left Halifax have done so for work-related reasons, to go to school elsewhere or to live in ski resort towns or travel other countries. I can't think of a single one who left just because they needed to be somewhere with an NHL team and a subway system, although those are things that people speak of positively. I would say that most of the time people my age don't leave Halifax "because we don't have a stadium" but of the ones who are going to move anyway, stadiums and other amenities might factor into where they choose to relocate to.

I think it's more common for young people to move here from larger cities with pro sports etc. and miss those things, sometimes to the point of returning home because of it, than it is for people who grew up here to leave because they can't live without live pro sports.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Empire

Exactly, and the reason the health care budget is going through the roof is because the average age in NS is rapidly increasing. The reason the average age is going up is because young people are leaving in droves. Young people are leaving because we lack amenities found elsewhere like stadiums.

Any reliable source to support your opinions ?

Our kids left because we don't have the mountains of Alberta & BC, and opportunities in the arts are greater in Toronto than here.
They won't be back.
There are more and better employment/business opportunities in many other places in Canada.
And in the UK the midlands and north of England have stadiums galore - built by private enterprise and without a nickel of public money......and they have higher unemployment than Halifax.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Empire

Exactly, and the reason the health care budget is going through the roof is because the average age in NS is rapidly increasing. The reason the average age is going up is because young people are leaving in droves. Young people are leaving because we lack amenities found elsewhere like stadiums.

I highly doubt that anyone is leaving Nova Scotia because we lack stadiums and major-league teams. There's a good case to be made that they could be beneficial for various reasons, but it's not going to keep anyone here, or attract anyone from elsewhere (besides a handful of athletes, I guess).

And I don't think many people except sports nuts consider it a roadblock to moving TO Nova Scotia, either.

I could be wrong, I guess. But it seems like a stretch.

[mcmcclassic]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Any reliable source to support your opinions ?

Our kids left because we don't have the mountains of Alberta & BC, and opportunities in the arts are greater in Toronto than here.
They won't be back.
There are more and better employment/business opportunities in many other places in Canada.
And in the UK the midlands and north of England have stadiums galore - built by private enterprise and without a nickel of public money......and they have higher unemployment than Halifax.

The UK is way more densely populated than pretty much anywhere in Canada and people are way more hardcore about sports (they have seperate sections for each team's fanbase in many stadiums). You mentioned the midlands and northern England for having lots of stadiums - there are several Premier League teams up there (including Wolverhamption and Newcastle).

As someone who is seeing all of his friends move away (I just finished university), many are leaving because:

1) They came here for school and are going home to live/work
2) Fort McMoney/Edmonton/Calgary has a job waiting for them
3) The wages in another Canadian city are higher than here
4) They see Halifax as a place to retire, not to be young in

[counterfactual]

Lets avoid simplistic answers.

The out-migration of young people is due to a number of factors, social, cultural, economic.

Lack of jobs is a big one, but it's not the only reason. Jobs are a problem for all provinces. In fact, the only province that is *creating* jobs these days is Alberta:

http://www.truenorthtimes.ca/2014/07/24/alberta-adds-82000-jobs-canada-loses-9500/

Yet, despite Alberta the only province with new jobs, multiple provinces are regardless gaining in population: Alta, B.C., Sask, Man, based on interprovincial migration.

So, jobs isn't the only factor.

There are others, including cultural, as Empire suggests (which is something I've heard Mike Savage say too about the benefit of a stadium). I've had friends with good jobs in Halifax who literally left for the West to live because, quite frankly, they were "bored".

There are others still. As someone who has lived in rural NS at various points, one of the other cultural factors/attitudes that has always bothered me, is that in Nova Scotia it's actually more politically correct and acceptable to lament losing young people to Alberta than to suggest rural Nova Scotians move to Halifax for a job. It's part of a long-time rural/urban political divide, with broader Nova Scotia often being resentful of Halifax's perceived growth and good fortunes; and until recently, rural Nova Scotia-- not Halifax-- elected governments.

[As an aside: you can see this thinking trickle down in other elements of provincial policy as well-- it's why the Provincial Government has rarely invested in downtown Halifax; it's why the Dennis Building is rotting. Why the province sits on downtown parking lots. It's why Capital District / Public Land plans sit on shelves, collecting dust year after year. Putting money in downtown Halifax has been a recipe for electoral disaster in rural Nova Scotia for decades).

For most in rural communities, if you can't find a job in your town, the next choice on the map, it seems, is Alberta. Meanwhile, industry in Halifax are worried about a skills shortage in Halifax:

http://thechronicleherald.ca/editorials/...ipyard-aboriginal-job-scheme-s-a-win-win

There's also an attitude among Nova Scotians that they want to maintain the province as some pristine retirement community. I heard some moron on the radio the other day, saying he preferred young people to leave and work in Alberta and send money home to family, than let fracking or other industries happen in NS that would "endanger" people. With the sheer ignorance and idiocy (economically, environmentally, scientifically) of that kind of thinking, it's no wonder we're a crippled economy with no jobs & losing young people. Normally, I'd conclude this moron is not representative of broader NS opinion; but i've heard it too often, and seen too many "Letters to the Editor" locally, reflecting the same ideas, to so conclude.

If politicians grew some backbone in this province they might be willing to tackle some of these cultural norms and myths. They never, and they don't, even with Ray Ivany giving them political cover in spades.

</rant>

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Empire

Exactly, and the reason the health care budget is going through the roof is because the average age in NS is rapidly increasing. The reason the average age is going up is because young people are leaving in droves. Young people are leaving because we lack amenities found elsewhere like stadiums.

It's not the only factor in young people leaving, but definitely part of the spectrum of challenges we face.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by mcmcclassic

The UK is way more densely populated than pretty much anywhere in Canada and people are way more hardcore about sports (they have seperate sections for each team's fanbase in many stadiums). You mentioned the midlands and northern England for having lots of stadiums - there are several Premier League teams up there (including Wolverhamption and Newcastle).

As someone who is seeing all of his friends move away (I just finished university), many are leaving because:

1) They came here for school and are going home to live/work
2) Fort McMoney/Edmonton/Calgary has a job waiting for them
3) The wages in another Canadian city are higher than here
4) They see Halifax as a place to retire, not to be young in

Sadly, I think the biggest reason people leave is perception. #4 is obviously about perception (I'd argue that Hali feels pretty young and vibrant), but #3 is too. It's amazing how many people complain about Halifax employers paying crap wages, despite that Halifax has some of the highest incomes in the country (as far as major metros go) across all age groups. The prairies best us, as does Ottawa (government jobs) but household incomes are nearly 10k higher here than TO/Van/MTL, and a host of smaller cities as well.

It's equally amazing how many people choose where to live based on anecdote and stereotype, rather than facts and stats. People can live wherever they want, of course, but the no-future spiel I hear from outgoing Haligonians is pretty much standard-issue received wisdom, and it's usually pretty ridiculous. But most of us take it to heart, it seems.

Hard to argue with #2 though. I even know people in Toronto who are packing up for Alberta. I think Canada is getting worryingly destabilized between AB/SK and everyone else.

Anyway, off topic. But I don't imagine a stadium is going to fix anything, nor do I imagine the lack of a stadium is hindering us.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

in Nova Scotia it's actually more politically correct and acceptable to lament losing young people to Alberta than to suggest rural Nova Scotians move to Halifax for a job

Yeah, this is definitely very prevalent in NS, and it's very strange. I was talking to a university buddy who is now living in the UK. He says Scotland is in a very similar economic situation as NS, but there's a huge difference in how they talk about it. Here we tell people they have to go west to make a living, where there they encourage their young people to stay and make opportunity for themselves.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Yeah, this is definitely very prevalent in NS, and it's very strange. I was talking to a university buddy who is now living in the UK. He says Scotland is in a very similar economic situation as NS, but there's a huge difference in how they talk about it. Here we tell people they have to go west to make a living, where there they encourage their young people to stay and make opportunity for themselves.

Exactly. There are some that are sticking around Halifax and making a "go" of it as entrepreneurs, but these are overwhelmingly Haligonians and not those from rural NS.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Yeah, this is definitely very prevalent in NS, and it's very strange. I was talking to a university buddy who is now living in the UK. He says Scotland is in a very similar economic situation as NS, but there's a huge difference in how they talk about it. Here we tell people they have to go west to make a living, where there they encourage their young people to stay and make opportunity for themselves.

I have relatives in Scotland and they have the same problem in well established towns as we have here : aging population, small business closures as chains dominate, less children, downtown decline - often blamed on Tesco and other large companies building outside a town or on the periphery of a city.
It is similar across the developed world; societies have reached maturity and lost jobs to what were once regarded as 3rd world countries. Very few, if any, governments have found a way to deal with the change and I think this is now reflected in the one term governments we have seen in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.
Job one in metro is to pin down Harper and Trudeau on a commitment to keeping the shipbuilding programme on a timely track - no delays. And pin the unions down on long term no strike agreements. If the feds put a hold on the project we will be in deep trouble.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Job one in metro is to pin down Harper and Trudeau on a commitment to keeping the shipbuilding programme on a timely track - no delays. And pin the unions down on long term no strike agreements. If the feds put a hold on the project we will be in deep trouble.

We have our disagreements from time to time, Colin, but I whole heartedly agree with this-- MacNeil should make sure shipbuilding is a "go".

If only NS had a Danny Williams-like character; someone with backbone to go after Harper and the Feds to ensure they live up to promises and also stop hurting Nova Scotia with bad federal policy (the low provincial nominee quota limits we get, compared to Sask/Man, is one such example).

NS needs someone to stand up to NIMBYs too, and instead, forge ahead with decisions that are unpopular with a mouthy minority but are in the best interests of the province-- Williams dismissed people who protested against offshore development, and today, NL is reaping the many rewards as a "have" province.

When the Wheeler report comes out, it'll likely recommend that fracking should be permitted but regulated. But I fully expect the MacNeil government to fold like a cheap tower to mouthy protestors, and keep the fracking moratorium in place. Another possible industry banned. We like banning industries in Nova Scotia. It's our thing.

In short: MacNeil just seems like business as usual.