Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Docere

If they live in a heavily Italian area, I think there's an "ethnolect."

There's definitely something there. My elementary school was heavily Italian (both students and staff) and I remember there being a noticeably Italian flavour to how some of my classmates and teachers spoke. Many of the Italian kids spoke with the generic suburban Toronto accent I was raised speaking, others had that Toronto Italian colour to their speech, and still others had the Montreal Italian accent (this was the 90s and many of my classmates had recently moved here from Montreal). A lot of the kids would code-switch, speaking one way at school and another way at home or with their Italian friends.

Some examples of what I'm talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tdWszVHrt4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpGz6JLx42c (skip to ~1:45 especially)

(As an aside, one of my relatives married into an Italian family from Hamilton who speak in a rather different way altogether)

As has been mentioned, there's also a Jewish "ethnolect" spoken by some in the city.

An example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pXALfmqVS0

Then there's the Caribbean-influence you hear in some:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv85vTHrq24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqn7igXhUOM

The Caribbean influence on slang here is also undeniable, and while this following example is purposefully extreme, you can hear elements of it even outside of those with a Caribbean background:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqn7igXhUOM

And then there's the old upwardly mobile White working class accent you hear sometimes, especially in the inner suburbs (AKA Ford Nayshun-speak):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lx1JQuUMBo

My landlady speaks like this (and, coincidentally, is the only remaining Ford supporter I know).

I wish I had a recording of my grandmother speaking. She still has an old working class WASP accent that's almost entirely disappeared from the city - unlike anything else I've heard in Canada ("yuzz iz ahl comin' over to yur aynt's hoos fer thaynksgivin.'") IIRC, her family had been in Toronto since before Confederation, which is ridiculously rare these days.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

And then there's the old upwardly mobile White working class accent you hear sometimes, especially in the inner suburbs (AKA Ford Nayshun-speak):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lx1JQuUMBo

My landlady speaks like this (and, coincidentally, is the only remaining Ford supporter I know).

I have distant relatives in southern Ontario who look and sound like exactly like Rob Ford's sister... chain-smoking, working-class boomer/gen X children of factory workers. Barely graduated or dropped out of high school, got married and started families by 20 while working part time at Dominion type situations.

The thing that gets me is that Rob Ford and his siblings are children of wealth and privilege... their dad was a successful businessman with money and political power, after all. How is it that they look and sound the same as my hard-knocks family? This can't just be an affectation?!?

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by esquire

The thing that gets me is that Rob Ford and his siblings are children of wealth and privilege... their dad was a successful businessman with money and political power, after all. How is it that they look and sound the same as my hard-knocks family? This can't just be an affectation?!?

Money doesn't buy class.

Doug Ford Senior was a working class kid who built a mid-sized business for himself and moved out to the suburbs - a fairly common story from that era. My dad's worked for a few companies founded by similar guys who proceeded to hand them off to incompetent silver spoon-fed sons (who've run the business into the ground). Typical nouveau riche - large tacky houses, a sense of entitlement, feeling they've "arrived" without affecting the behaviour (or speech) of the established elite. Indeed, in that sort of family, the mythology of money-through-honest-hard-work is highlighted in contrast to the lazy sons-of-someone from Rosedale who coasted through an Ivy League/Oxbridge education only to become the dreaded Champagne Socialist.

[esquire]

^ I didn't really know much about Doug Ford Sr., but the fact that he held office would indicate to me that he had some higher aspirations than merely being the small businessman who hits it big and spends all his money on hot rods, booze and Vegas parties. Although I suppose that his sons are the counterpoint to that line of reasoning...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by esquire

I have distant relatives in southern Ontario who look and sound like exactly like Rob Ford's sister... chain-smoking, working-class boomer/gen X children of factory workers. Barely graduated or dropped out of high school, got married and started families by 20 while working part time at Dominion type situations.

The thing that gets me is that Rob Ford and his siblings are children of wealth and privilege... their dad was a successful businessman with money and political power, after all. How is it that they look and sound the same as my hard-knocks family? This can't just be an affectation?!?

The thing that struck me was how little Ford mater sounds like her kids.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I didn't really know much about Doug Ford Sr., but the fact that he held office would indicate to me that he had some higher aspirations than merely being the small businessman who hits it big and spends all his money on hot rods, booze and Vegas parties. Although I suppose that his sons are the counterpoint to that line of reasoning...

Doug Ford Sr. was a one-term MPP whose political influence has been grossly overstated (by his sons especially) given that his governing party didn't care enough about him to ensure that he retained a seat at Queen's Park when they cut the number of MPPs in the province.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The thing that struck me was how little Ford mater sounds like her kids.

I suspect she'd make a very concerted effort not to speak like that during a media interview. Of all of them, she appears to be the least likely to wear that started-from-the-bottom narrative on her sleeve. We've certainly heard much less of her and her background than that of her late husband. All we know is she fancies herself a Canadian Kennedy, and acts (and probably speaks) accordingly.

For her generation, I imagine that being the affluent son of the working class was more socially acceptable than being the upwardly-mobile daughter of working parents. She's part of the hot rod deal for Doug Sr.; speaking like a "poor person" would cast her only as an uncouth gold-digger in a social circle dominated by proper suburban housewives (who probably came from similar backgrounds themselves).

It's hard to believe in this day and age, but once upon a time women had to care more about this stuff than men ever did. That had become less true when Rob and Kathy were being raised (when proving your authenticity - not your pedigree - had come in vogue).

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by esquire

I have distant relatives in southern Ontario who look and sound like exactly like Rob Ford's sister... chain-smoking, working-class boomer/gen X children of factory workers. Barely graduated or dropped out of high school, got married and started families by 20 while working part time at Dominion type situations.

The thing that gets me is that Rob Ford and his siblings are children of wealth and privilege... their dad was a successful businessman with money and political power, after all. How is it that they look and sound the same as my hard-knocks family? This can't just be an affectation?!?

Yep. Her speech is a pristine example of that of Ontario's low-income urban whites. You'd hear that exact style of speech up in the Heights here in Kingston or in downtown Cornwall.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

It's hard to believe in this day and age, but once upon a time women had to care more about this stuff than men ever did. That had become less true when Rob and Kathy were being raised (when proving your authenticity - not your pedigree - had come in vogue).

really succinct way of phrasing that particular cultural shift. nicely said.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

maritimers often sort of flatten their short vowels, so "car" becomes "ker," and "milk," "melk."

Well that explains why my mother says "melk", and even though I've lived most of my life in Ontario, I'd learned to say it that way too. Nobody else I know in Ontario says "melk".

[manny_santos]

I think I've posted this before in another thread, but from my experience, the pronunciation of Toronto is the most obvious marker of where people are from in Ontario. People from Toronto tend to say "Tronna", people from other urban centres tend to say "Toronna", and people from rural areas of Ontario (and sometimes other parts of Canada) tend to say "Toron-Toe". CBC Radio hosts tend to say "Toron-Toe", but I'm guessing they have a standard city pronunciation guide they follow.

Kingston is an interesting one. Close to downtown, where the population tends to be either Queen's students or university educated professionals (such as myself), we sound very Toronto. But there's a lot of pockets of Kingston, even close to the CBD, that sound very rural. The term "youse" in place of "you" in the plural is very common around here (and is a huge pet peeve of one of my colleagues, from Peterborough), and I even heard "y'all" from a barber yesterday. You only have to go as far as On Larocks Bar on Concession Street to hear the typical Kingston area accent. Around here there's no shortage of waitresses who say "dear" or "sweetie".

Kingston is also the first city in Canada where I've ever heard someone say "tortillas" pronouncing the double-L in the English sense, and the first place anywhere I've heard "Illinois" with the S pronounced.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Well that explains why my mother says "melk", and even though I've lived most of my life in Ontario, I'd learned to say it that way too. Nobody else I know in Ontario says "melk".

• Video Link

They're also very likely to never use "my" - always "me".

I'm not fussy on it, meself.
Have you got me comb?
Etc.

I used to do that but got rid of it. It's just old English, and it sounds perfectly well and good from a Scouser - but it's interpreted quite poorly on the North American mainland, as I discovered.

Somehow, though, the Scousers get away with it. I've yet to meet a mainlander who thinks people like this sound stupid, whereas that's been the dominant reaction to more Irish accents using "me/meself":

• Video Link

[Docere]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

And then there's the old upwardly mobile White working class accent you hear sometimes, especially in the inner suburbs (AKA Ford Nayshun-speak):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lx1JQuUMBo

My landlady speaks like this (and, coincidentally, is the only remaining Ford supporter I know).

I wish I had a recording of my grandmother speaking. She still has an old working class WASP accent that's almost entirely disappeared from the city - unlike anything else I've heard in Canada ("yuzz iz ahl comin' over to yur aynt's hoos fer thaynksgivin.'") IIRC, her family had been in Toronto since before Confederation, which is ridiculously rare these days.

Excellent post. The working class anglo (not necessarily WASP, Irish Catholics spoke with it too) is rapidly disappearing to both higher levels of education and migration out of the city. Many of these people have moved out to places like Barrie or Oshawa.

It's basically the Toronto equivalent of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fqCS7Y_kME

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I think I've posted this before in another thread, but from my experience, the pronunciation of Toronto is the most obvious marker of where people are from in Ontario. People from Toronto tend to say "Tronna", people from other urban centres tend to say "Toronna", and people from rural areas of Ontario (and sometimes other parts of Canada) tend to say "Toron-Toe". CBC Radio hosts tend to say "Toron-Toe", but I'm guessing they have a standard city pronunciation guide they follow.

Kingston is an interesting one. Close to downtown, where the population tends to be either Queen's students or university educated professionals (such as myself), we sound very Toronto. But there's a lot of pockets of Kingston, even close to the CBD, that sound very rural. The term "youse" in place of "you" in the plural is very common around here (and is a huge pet peeve of one of my colleagues, from Peterborough), and I even heard "y'all" from a barber yesterday. You only have to go as far as On Larocks Bar on Concession Street to hear the typical Kingston area accent. Around here there's no shortage of waitresses who say "dear" or "sweetie".

Kingston is also the first city in Canada where I've ever heard someone say "tortillas" pronouncing the double-L in the English sense, and the first place anywhere I've heard "Illinois" with the S pronounced.

I'd laugh at Kingston's "tor-TILL-ahs", "Ill-I-NOISE", "melk" (and BAG-els), but I guess everybody has their quirks. The "y'all" to me is a modern adoption - it's like a spreading plague from U.S. speak. "Youse" (pronounced "yuz" down here) is something you hear upon occasion in K-C-W, but only in specific phrases, like "Whadduh yuz up tuh?".

[SignalHillHiker]

We say "yuz" too in some phrases, but we'd write it "ye". The z sound only comes because we blend together certain words, like French.

So you'd get "yeeze" primarily when the next word begins with an "s".

"What are ye saying?" would be "What are yeezsaying".

Also... "Whadduh yuz up tuh?" sounds so wrong to me. For us, "at" is always action, "to" is always location.

What are you at?
Where are you to?

It's really only mixed up for some cute expressions and folk songs ("Don't come where we're at, stay where you're to", etc.). No one would subconsciously mix them up with speaking.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I'd laugh at Kingston's "tor-TILL-ahs", "Ill-I-NOISE", "melk" (and BAG-els), but I guess everybody has their quirks. The "y'all" to me is a modern adoption - it's like a spreading plague from U.S. speak. "Youse" (pronounced "yuz" down here) is something you hear upon occasion in K-C-W, but only in specific phrases, like "Whadduh yuz up tuh?".

Is Don Cherry a good example of working class Kingston speech?

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Kingston is an interesting one. Close to downtown, where the population tends to be either Queen's students or university educated professionals (such as myself), we sound very Toronto. But there's a lot of pockets of Kingston, even close to the CBD, that sound very rural. The term "youse" in place of "you" in the plural is very common around here (and is a huge pet peeve of one of my colleagues, from Peterborough), and I even heard "y'all" from a barber yesterday. You only have to go as far as On Larocks Bar on Concession Street to hear the typical Kingston area accent. Around here there's no shortage of waitresses who say "dear" or "sweetie".

Interesting you should say that. I lived in Peterborough for a few years, actually only a block from where the following video was shot. It's an interesting city for a number of reasons, including the stark linguistic divide between the working and middle classes. The latter have this well-articulated soft-spoken business about them, while the former sound closer to the stereotypical "hoser."

Now, I did a quick search to find an example and ended up stumbling upon this (hilarious) video that perfectly catches the divide I'm talking about (notice how the Mayor straight up calls him on the way he speaks):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW54bNFxJjI

God I love that town.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

Money doesn't buy class.

Doug Ford Senior was a working class kid who built a mid-sized business for himself and moved out to the suburbs - a fairly common story from that era. My dad's worked for a few companies founded by similar guys who proceeded to hand them off to incompetent silver spoon-fed sons (who've run the business into the ground). Typical nouveau riche - large tacky houses, a sense of entitlement, feeling they've "arrived" without affecting the behaviour (or speech) of the established elite. Indeed, in that sort of family, the mythology of money-through-honest-hard-work is highlighted in contrast to the lazy sons-of-someone from Rosedale who coasted through an Ivy League/Oxbridge education only to become the dreaded Champagne Socialist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF9u_G_ZrGo

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Docere

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF9u_G_ZrGo

Bob Rae speaks in a very polished fashion, but his accent is more Anglo generic than identifiably Canadian, imho. Not surprising giving his background and international upbringing.

[Docere]

Yes - he's a good example of "the elite" which they refuse to be part of. In the conservative populist worldview, class is entirely about culture and has nothing to do with economics.

[kwoldtimer]

Common family names in Kitchener can confound outsiders. Last night the National did a good report on drone aircraft but the reporter pronounced the name of a Waterloo company's president, Kroetsch, as though it rhymed with something between "coach" and "crotch". In fact, it rhymes with "wretch". I hate to think what he would have done to Weber (WEE-burr), Wiebe (WEE-bee), or Breithaupt (BRIGHT-up). The list is long.