Sports in Canadian culture - Page 89

Gerrard · #**1761** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 4:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon

This whole argument seems pointless and kind of ridiculous.

What can't people just accept that people like what they like, for whatever reasons?
Why do people care that Toronto isn't interested in the CFL? Does it make you enjoy the CFL less?
Do you care if there's little interest in the NBA in Regina... or MLB in Winnipeg? If so, do you knock that city for not caring as well?

Not every city has the same preferences. It's not wrong to have difference interests, and it's certainly not enough to ridicule a city over.

Tall poppy syndrome. Great Canadian insecurity. Hating Toronto. Feeling smug and superior. Online forums. Anti-Americanism.

The very essence of being Canadian.

That's why it matters.

Stryker · #**1762** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerrard

You can't force people to like football in Toronto. Get over it. It has little to do with Torontonians rejecting their country WE JUST DON'T CARE ABOUT FOOTBALL.

The demographic isn't there. The rivalries don't exist. Montreal might still have a baseball team, if the Blue Jays and Expos played in the same division. But at the very least even in the absence of rivalries for the Blue Jays, people like baseball here -and they like it even more when the Blue Jays are winning. No one cares if the Argos win or lose.

The NFL gets brought up but it's a dream of developers not Torontonians. No one attends those games either. The NFL's popularity is based on gambling revenue. No one cares about the games here at all.

In Toronto there are a ton of LGBT sports leagues. Even the football league has less participation than the damned Rugby league.

Because Toronto, despite what history it may have with football had when its demographic was different now does not give a crap about the sport and hasn't for decades now. The league will go on with or without a team in Toronto. It managed for years without a Montreal team, it'll get over the lack of interest in Toronto too.

And honestly why should Torontonians need to apologize for having their own distinct likes and dislikes in this nation. Don't you guys constantly celebrate those "differences" of other places in this country?

Just accept that Toronto is a unique part of Canada and get over it.

Do you honestly think New York cares about some bumf*ck Kansas team or whatnot? They don't. I can't speak for London but having lived in NYC I can honestly tell you New Yorkers don't care one bit about maintaining some sort of national unity through sports or shared cultural institutions. They believe they are the USA period. Or something quite distinct and unconnected to it. You have heard the phrase "flyover" haven't you? It's not supposed to be flattering.

Torontonians don't treat the ROC with the same sort of pointed arrogance. We just don't think very much about it at all.

A more accurate opinion, atleast moreso than the shinny objects theorem.

Stryker · #**1763** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlassCity

And why exactly is the CFL minor league? And why are Canadian cities not on your radar? Last time I checked watching sports was about watching sports, not watching random groups of athletes representing a city most of them aren't from. You should watch the Blue Jays instead of the Argonauts if you prefer baseball to football, not because they play American teams.

Salary caps that are one tenth of what a major sport team cap looks like, a handful of games that cant maintain the atmosphere of MLB.

People care about money when there spending 30-40 bucks a ticket.

Its this circular argument that the cfl presents, were major league yet we have none of the things associate with a major league.

Like seriously mlse could double the salaries of the entire CFL tomorrow on jump a whim.

Im sure the old stadium in Hamilton didn't help either, everything look bush league.

Be clear nobody cars about America teams, what people care about is 100 million dollar salaries when there being sold something as a major league. If the CFL had drastic Cap increase Im sure Toronto would be all over it.

Now if the CFL sold it as a local regional league like the CHL, things would be very different, civic rivalries would be huge.

Because right now the CFL is feels like a distorted chl, only theres one token team from Ontario, and one token teams from quebec.

Acajack · #**1764** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:23 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stryker

Salary caps that are one tenth of what a major sport team cap looks like, a handful of games that cant maintain the atmosphere of MLB.

People care about money when there spending 30-40 bucks a ticket.

Its this circular argument that the cfl presents, were major league yet we have none of the things associate with a major league.

Like seriously mlse could double the salaries of the entire CFL tomorrow on jump a whim.

Im sure the old stadium in Hamilton didn't help either, everything look bush league.

Be clear nobody cars about America teams, what people care about is 100 million dollar salaries when there being sold something as a major league. If the CFL had drastic Cap increase Im sure Toronto would be all over it.

Now if the CFL sold it as a local regional league like the CHL, things would be very different, civic rivalries would be huge.

Because right now the CFL is feels like a distorted chl, only theres one token team from Ontario, and one token teams from quebec.

The CFL actually has three teams in Ontario. More than in any other province in fact. Somehow I doubt that it's a token thing for them.

GlassCity · #**1765** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stryker

Salary caps that are one tenth of what a major sport team cap looks like, a handful of games that cant maintain the atmosphere of MLB.

People care about money when there spending 30-40 bucks a ticket.

Its this circular argument that the cfl presents, were major league yet we have none of the things associate with a major league.

Like seriously mlse could double the salaries of the entire CFL tomorrow on jump a whim.

Im sure the old stadium in Hamilton didn't help either, everything look bush league.

Be clear nobody cars about America teams, what people care about is 100 million dollar salaries when there being sold something as a major league. If the CFL had drastic Cap increase Im sure Toronto would be all over it.

Now if the CFL sold it as a local regional league like the CHL, things would be very different, civic rivalries would be huge.

Because right now the CFL is feels like a distorted chl, only theres one token team from Ontario, and one token teams from quebec.

So what you're telling me is that if the players made more money, then the league would more popular while everything else stays the same. I mean I understand that the majority of "sports fans" are bandwagoners (we had plenty of them during our Cup run here) you'd just think that in such an enormous city you'd find 30,000 people that actually just like watching good, quality football and don't care how much money the players make.

I just don't see how the CFL isn't major league. Very few leagues around the world pay multi million dollar salaries. It's really just the big 4 in North America and the European soccer leagues. Is Super Rugby minor league because the players make $70,000 a year? Ask anybody (maybe outside England and France) and they'll tell you it's the world's premier rugby competition. CFL salaries are the norm in very well supported, competitive leagues all over the world.

The CFL has a national and international TV contract, premier players and some of the highest attendance numbers for any sports league in the world. There is nothing minor league about it.

Stryker · #**1766** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure. I'd say the NFL is more popular in Toronto today than MLB was before the Blue Jays arrived and the NBA before the Raptors arrived.

That's not bad for a league that doesn't even have a team in the city and no official plans to place one there.

Would you stop with the nonsense, the NFL is a juggernaut it pulls in more money than combined of multiple league.

Do you think people in Denmark get caught up in the popularity of the premier league across Europe, people watch pro sports like the business side of things as much or often more than the actual game itself.

If people didn't feel that way they watch local games of whatever sport, something many Torontonians do all the time.

Major league sports are exactly what they are, if you want the CFL to be popular or atleast more popular treat it like a second tier league it is.

The CFL to main competitors are the MLS and NLL, don't for a second think it even compares to the CFL.

Acajack · #**1767** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon

This whole argument seems pointless and kind of ridiculous.

What can't people just accept that people like what they like, for whatever reasons?
Why do people care that Toronto isn't interested in the CFL? Does it make you enjoy the CFL less?
Do you care if there's little interest in the NBA in Regina... or MLB in Winnipeg? If so, do you knock that city for not caring as well?

Not every city has the same preferences. It's not wrong to have difference interests, and it's certainly not enough to ridicule a city over.

I think the discussion came up when the idea of a national Canadian soccer league was raised and it was acknowledged that it was difficult to have national cross-Canada leagues when the largest city like Toronto "prefers" to play in leagues that have primarily or only American cities. (Of course, in soccer it's also the case of Montreal and Vancouver.)

Stryker · #**1768** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon

This whole argument seems pointless and kind of ridiculous.

What can't people just accept that people like what they like, for whatever reasons?
Why do people care that Toronto isn't interested in the CFL? Does it make you enjoy the CFL less?
Do you care if there's little interest in the NBA in Regina... or MLB in Winnipeg? If so, do you knock that city for not caring as well?

Not every city has the same preferences. It's not wrong to have difference interests, and it's certainly not enough to ridicule a city over.

I think most here agree that they liked to see the CFL grow which is part of the argument, problem is people have very different views of what the CFL is and is not, and what the Toronto market is and is not.

Acajack · #**1769** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stryker

Would you stop with the nonsense, the NFL is a juggernaut it pulls in more money than combined of multiple league.

Do you think people in Denmark get caught up in the popularity of the premier league across Europe, people watch pro sports like the business side of things as much or often more than the actual game itself.

If people didn't feel that way they watch local games of whatever sport, something many Torontonians do all the time.

Major league sports are exactly what they are, if you want the CFL to be popular or atleast more popular treat it like a second tier league it is.

The CFL to main competitors are the MLS and NLL, don't for a second think it even compares to the CFL.

I don't get your point, or at least what it has to do with what I wrote.

Gerrard and you seem to be on the same side but one of you says the NFL is so big and great one can't ignore it, and the other says Torontonians are indifferent to it, save for the betting pools.

So what's it gonna be guys?

GlassCity · #**1770** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stryker

Would you stop with the nonsense, the NFL is a juggernaut it pulls in more money than combined of multiple league.

Do you think people in Denmark get caught up in the popularity of the premier league across Europe, people watch pro sports like the business side of things as much or often more than the actual game itself.

If people didn't feel that way they watch local games of whatever sport, something many Torontonians do all the time.

Major league sports are exactly what they are, if you want the CFL to be popular or atleast more popular treat it like a second tier league it is.

The CFL to main competitors are the MLS and NLL, don't for a second think it even compares to the CFL.

Don't even try to compare the CFL to the NLL. The average salary in the NLL is $14,000 and they don't have anything close to all their games being televised. I'll give you MLS, but in Canada, like it or not, the CFL absolutely trumps everything but the NHL.

Regardless, I really don't understand how treating the CFL as a second tier league would make it more popular.

The CFL is just simply not second tier, even the players. For example, Ricky Ray would be a force in the NFL, I guarantee it.

Stryker · #**1771** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlassCity

So what you're telling me is that if the players made more money, then the league would more popular while everything else stays the same.
Not everything staying the same, with everything improving. Better stadiums, bigger network contracts, bigger trades, higher recruitment dollars etc.
I mean I understand that the majority of "sports fans" are bandwagoners (we had plenty of them during our Cup run here) you'd just think that in such an enormous city you'd find 30,000 people that actually just like watching good, quality football and don't care how much money the players make.
Oh I assure you there are 30,000 far more, but there not going downtown to the skydome paying 50 bucks a ticket. There at their local high school, York U, Brock, U of T, watcingh college game etc. This is the part your not listening too, why would I goto a CFL game, when I goto a UofT game, where someone I know is playing the school I went too. That's of course ignoring the 7-8 other local sports that even includes cricket.
I just don't see how the CFL isn't major league. Very few leagues around the world pay multi million dollar salaries. It's really just the big 4 in North America and the European soccer leagues. Is Super Rugby minor league because the players make $70,000 a year? Ask anybody (maybe outside England and France) and they'll tell you it's the world's premier rugby competition. CFL salaries are the norm in very well supported, competitive leagues all over the world.
Well this may be why nobody cares about rugby, The MLS biggest problem is that people constantly compare it to the EPL. Think about that, the biggest detractor to a mostly American league, is the quality is so much lower than that of englands
The CFL has a national and international TV contract, premier players and some of the highest attendance numbers for any sports league in the world. There is nothing minor league about it.

The highest attendance figure is total bunk, it has far fewer games than any other sport. Aside from NFL, which everyone agrees is having trouble filling its stadiums.

Anyhow say that while living anywhere east of Winnipeg.

I grew up in newfoundland, never heard a thing about the cfl growing up, I was 18 before I even saw a Canadian football, and at the time I thought Canadian football was basically rugby.

That being said I was well aware of cricket, rugby, lacrosse etc, just the CFL wasn't even something I heard about until Steve Arper started going to grey cup games.

Seriously if you have to tell me its a major league, its probably not a major league.

Steveston · #**1772** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:51 PM**

I don't buy the "CFL isn't major league, so Toronto doesn't support it" argument.

If that were the case, why on earth would TO want to host a Pan-Am Games? It's clearly "second-rate" compared to the Olympic Games hosted by Montreal, Calgary & Vancouver. Am I expected to believe that Torontonians won't be buying tickets and attending the events during the Pan-Ams?

And I'm not suggesting for a second that the Argos could/would supplant the Jays, Raptors or Leafs in the pecking order of the TO sports scene. I'm simply suggesting that, with proper community engagement/outreach and marketing, you should be able to sell 30,000 tickets per game in a metro area with a population of 5.5 million.

The concept that "Toronto hates the CFL" is garbage. A city doesn't hate anything -- it's citizens will either support or choose not to support any venture, based on their preferences and perceptions of it. Clearly, more effort is needed to improve the perception of the CFL, and create a strong base of fans.

I'll never believe that the CFL is doomed in Toronto.

Acajack · #**1773** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:54 PM**

What a bunch of bloody idiots. Spending all their hard-earned money and getting all riled up for that second-rate crap when they've got the EPL on the telly and just down the road in England.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cggTbCcbcNA

Stryker · #**1774** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 5:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Don't even try to compare the CFL to the NLL. The average salary in the NLL is $14,000 and they don't have anything close to all their games being televised. I'll give you MLS, but in Canada, like it or not, the CFL absolutely trumps everything but the NHL.

Regardless, I really don't understand how treating the CFL as a second tier league would make it more popular.

The CFL is just simply not second tier, even the players. For example, Ricky Ray would be a force in the NFL, I guarantee it.

Remember to split east versus west Canada.. Nobody disputes that the league is huge in the west. And NLL far as Im concerned is the CFL calibre. As it is to most in Toronto. This is the thing, you'd rather attack an equal than acknowledge that an equal is worthy is of respect.

Its not like Torontonians, think lowly of lacrosse, soccer, cricket, rugby, etc, they represents other interesting sports, non of which have a major league status.

Acajack · #**1775** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 6:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stryker

Remember to split east versus west Canada.. Nobody disputes that the league is huge in the west. And NLL far as Im concerned is the CFL calibre. As it is to most in Toronto..

This comparing the NLL to the CFL in calibre is self-serving NFL boosterism more than anything else.

Both the Toronto Rock and the Argos have won championships in recent years. Anyone have the Toronto area TV ratings for both these championship games?

They would shed some light on which league has more interest and by how much.

GlassCity · #**1776** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 6:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stryker

The highest attendance figure is total bunk, it has far fewer games than any other sport. Aside from NFL, which everyone agrees is having trouble filling its stadiums.

Anyhow say that while living anywhere east of Winnipeg.

I grew up in newfoundland, never heard a thing about the cfl growing up, I was 18 before I even saw a Canadian football, and at the time I thought Canadian football was basically rugby.

That being said I was well aware of cricket, rugby, lacrosse etc, just the CFL wasn't even something I heard about until Steve Arper started going to grey cup games.

Seriously if you have to tell me its a major league, its probably not a major league.

Newfoundland is a completely different case and you know it.

1. I still don't understand why signing bonuses and network contract sizes keep you from enjoying a sport.

2. You'd go to a CFL game because it's objectively higher quality than OUA football and because $50 is an absolute bargain for pro sports. Why would you pay that much to see the Raptors when you can watch the Varsity Blues?

3. First of all, rugby is a very major in the Commonwealth nations, outside of us. It is Europe's and Australia's CFL by popularity, and the hockey of New Zealand and South Africa. And even if it wasn't, it wouldn't be because the players don't make millions of dollars. I'm sure soccer was still a very big deal in England, even before the players started raking in the millions.

4. The MLS' problems lie in the fact that North Americans simply don't like soccer, not that it's not the best league in the world. People everywhere support leagues that are obviously not the best in the world, because they're theirs.

I'm not gonna pretend that cities like Vancouver aren't just as attracted to the glitz and glamour of the sports world, but god damn, somehow we manage to support the CFL even with the Super Bowl champions 3 hours south. And it's not like attitudes to the CFL aren't hostile here as well. Yes we have much better media coverage of it, but I still get called out and ridiculed whenever I tell a person I'm a CFL fan. I know the TV numbers say otherwise, but socially the NFL is much bigger than the CFL. You never hear anybody talking about the CFL. Yet we still manage to get a respectable 25,000 people out to every game. If we can do it, Toronto should be able to too.

esquire · #**1777** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 6:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stryker

Salary caps that are one tenth of what a major sport team cap looks like, a handful of games that cant maintain the atmosphere of MLB.

People care about money when there spending 30-40 bucks a ticket.

I've heard this one before... people being dismissive of the CFL because maybe some of the players on the roster earn less than what they make in a year. These are the types who are dazzled by massive player contracts in other leagues.

Personally one of the things I like most about the CFL is that the players make reasonable amounts of money. The highest paid guys make in the range of $400-500K, and the average player is closer to $100K. Not bad for 6 months work.

Would the CFL somehow be better if the salary cap went up to $45,000,000 and you added a zero to every player's salary? If the experience of the NHL is any indication, I'd have to say no. Consider that 25 years ago the typical NHLer was making what, $300-400K. Now it's what, 10x that? But is the hockey better or more engaging today than it was when Gretzky and Lemieux were flying around? I would say not. It's pretty much the same thing. Yet to buy a halfway decent ticket I have to spend $85, and pay for $9 beers. The bottom line got a lot more lucrative, but I don't see how my experience as a fan is any better as a result of a dramatically increased payroll.

GlassCity · #**1778** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 6:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stryker

Remember to split east versus west Canada.. Nobody disputes that the league is huge in the west. And NLL far as Im concerned is the CFL calibre. As it is to most in Toronto. This is the thing, you'd rather attack an equal than acknowledge that an equal is worthy is of respect.

Its not like Torontonians, think lowly of lacrosse, soccer, cricket, rugby, etc, they represents other interesting sports, non of which have a major league status.

Game quality wise? Yes, the CFL and NLL are the same calibre as they are both the premier competitions in their respective sports. But in terms of popularity? Not even close. Vancouver's NLL team plays in a 5,000 seat community arena in Langley, along with a Junior A hockey team and the Trinity Western University (that you've probably never heard of) basketball team. You can't compare that to the CFL.

Berklon · #**1779** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 7:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steveston

I don't buy the "CFL isn't major league, so Toronto doesn't support it" argument.

If that were the case, why on earth would TO want to host a Pan-Am Games? It's clearly "second-rate" compared to the Olympic Games hosted by Montreal, Calgary & Vancouver. Am I expected to believe that Torontonians won't be buying tickets and attending the events during the Pan-Ams?

The Pan-Am games was something politicians wanted - I didn't hear a lot of people actually clamoring for it. I don't expect much of a turnout for the games beyond the friends/families of athletes. Ask any Torontonian or Southern Ontarian about the games, and the vast majority will say it's a huge waste of money on something no one cares about. While the Olympics are a big waste of money as well - at least people follow it. I couldn't even tell you any athletes of past Pan-Am games or even who hosted them.

Acajack · #**1780** Posted **Jul 23, 2014, 7:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon

The Pan-Am games was something politicians wanted - I didn't hear a lot of people actually clamoring for it. I don't expect much of a turnout for the games beyond the friends/families of athletes. Ask any Torontonian or Southern Ontarian about the games, and the vast majority will say it's a huge waste of money on something no one cares about. While the Olympics are a big waste of money as well - at least people follow it. I couldn't even tell you any athletes of past Pan-Am games or even who hosted them.

Have to agree with this.