Calgary Stoney Trail [Ring Road]

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

Oops, You're right, $17.4 million, and reimbursed by the Province. I believe all of the direct impacts (rerouting utilities and roads etc) are going to be paid by the province, but the City is going to be paying for the connectors.

I know there was talk about getting the Province to put up the money for the Richmond Road interchange for instance, but that did not end up being a part of the final SWCRR project.

I think that changed once the alderman and MLA for the area hatched a plan to directly connect Westhills through Sarcee Yards instead. If people use that access instead perhaps the interchange can be built at a much lower capacity later.

[You Need A Thneed]

If the west leg was complete right now, that Sarcee Yards interchange into West Hills would be the route I would take everyday.

[dmuzika]

Originally Posted by North_Regina_Boy

That IMO would be a little backwards? I mean wouldn't they want the West Portion first? That way Glenmore can continue around the west side to the TCH? Also giving more priority for the city to build at Barlow and 52nd Streets. And for the Province to complete the flyovers at Deerfoot (NB-WB) and the Stoney Trail east Glenmore trail (EB-NB)?

That way you would then have a road similar to the Whitemud. Inner City freeway that is limited access. Which IMO is desperately needed.

You could make the argument that Glenmore already connects to TCH 1 via Sarcee Trail since through traffic is Sarcee <--> Glenmore. Presuming that Sarcee Trail NW & Sarcee Trail SW are never connected (which is very likely), you could probably get away with renaming Sarcee Trail SW as Glenmore Trail. Hwy 8 could get a new name west of Sarcee/Glenmore (a portion will be Stoney Trail). Saying, with Stoney Trail and Crowchild Trail - it will probably be a long time (if ever) before Sarcee Trail is freeflow between 16 Ave N and Glenmore Trail.

Personally I'd like to see Glenmore Trail extended east to connect with the Trans-Canada Highway somewhere between Chestermere and Strathmore, then TCH 1 could follow an city freeway and connect with TCH 1W via Stoney Trail.

Originally Posted by North_Regina_Boy

Well correct the West Portion of Stoney would connect to Glemore at Sarcee. But I see what you are saying. I just wish there was a NB-WB ramp from Deerfoot to Glenmore... I hate getting off at Heritage and doing the re-route, so inefficient!

I agree that the busiest interchange in the city should be full-access and freeflow. Not only is Heritage Dr a surface street with lights, but the clearance under the Graves Bridge is pretty low.

Maybe, someday, this will come into fruition....

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType490/production/glen-m2.pdf

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by dmuzika

Maybe, someday, this will come into fruition....

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType490/production/glen-m2.pdf

I love the 6 new bridges over 11th Street.

[North_Regina_Boy]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

I love the 6 new bridges over 11th Street.

That is a golden set-up, isn't it! Jeez i would love to be driving on that everyday, instead of what the current set-up is.

[clooless]

I have looked at the proposed Glenmore/Deerfoot interchange improvements before, but this is the first time I have noticed that there appears to be a specific ramp that continues west from the Deerfoot south exit for traffic on westbound Glenmore to exit to Blackfoot Trail. It's the northernmost bridge over 11 Street.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Especially with only one bidder coming in on the P3 schools, scuttling the contract, I would guess there are major concerns about issuing the projects concurrently due to industry capacity, and the lack of firms that can front $5 large, limiting the number of bidders.

The groups bidding on the ring road would be quite different from the ones bidding on the school project. The interest level in bidding on the West/SW would not be an issue as far as I can tell.

[MalcolmTucker]

Governments are once burned twice shy. They didn't P3 Highway 63 because they were skittish. In theory it would have been a perfect project.

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Governments are once burned twice shy. They didn't P3 Highway 63 because they were skittish. In theory it would have been a perfect project.

Not arguing this point but they have P3'd NW Stoney, NE Stoney, SE Stoney, NE Anthony Henday, and NW Anthony Henday and seem to be quite satisfied for the most part.

[Doug]

The schools project had only one bidder, which suggests a poorly written RFQ, i.e. ambiguous or outrageous requirements.

[MalcolmTucker]

The big concern from the province is lack of capacity to build schools bare none, not just through P3s, at a price that is reasonable given the explosion in school populations.

[DizzyEdge]

Would the really stressed construction market ever make it worth it to try to hire an out of province company to come here and do work, even paying for their travel/accommodations, or would that just not ever be feasible? (I also realize with a govt project out of province would have some really bad optics)

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Would the really stressed construction market ever make it worth it to try to hire an out of province company to come here and do work, even paying for their travel/accommodations, or would that just not ever be feasible? (I also realize with a govt project out of province would have some really bad optics)

A lot of off site fabrication is done in other provinces/counties in the oil industry, I believe Ven is constructing wall sections in BC. As to bringing people here, if the trade is specialized or availability is low enough, it likely would be but I suspect most would be hired on the condition that they move here.

[DizzyEdge]

Trying to pre-fab the project as much as possible in other markets makes a lot of sense.

[MalcolmTucker]

And tilma / new west partnership and the new EFTA require neutrality on gov procurement. Convincing the feds to let a company bring in 1000 Poles to do the work would be hard though.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Doug

The schools project had only one bidder, which suggests a poorly written RFQ, i.e. ambiguous or outrageous requirements.

I think part of the school P3 single bidder issue was due to past experience with the first round of builds.

Put conjecture on my part but the following could be true.

The school boards were very picky when it came time to accept the final product. Million dollar estates home for affordable housing price.

Ultimately the amount of rework required likely did not produce adequate return on invested capital. The construction companies probably decide there were better projects with less hassle and more profit potential.

End to the conjecture.

What I do know from business dealings with calgary public, calgary separate, and edmonton separate is that school boards do not have an appropriate viewpoint for business dealings. Across multiple projects I delivered to school boards, they always demand far to high precision/features for their price point. Additionally, they would continue to request changes, but then were shocked when the change order resulted in additional costs. The basic contract would be very hard to deliver on budget because the number of people requesting changes that were ultimately not approved due to cost constraints. Then at project completion the pre would be rework to meet their standard. At the end of the day the analysis across three separate companies was to discontinue working for school boards, much easier and more profitable to engage with oil and gas companies.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by Cage

I think part of the school P3 single bidder issue was due to past experience with the first round of builds.

Put conjecture on my part but the following could be true.

The school boards were very picky when it came time to accept the final product. Million dollar estates home for affordable housing price.

Ultimately the amount of rework required likely did not produce adequate return on invested capital. The construction companies probably decide there were better projects with less hassle and more profit potential.

End to the conjecture.

What I do know from business dealings with calgary public, calgary separate, and edmonton separate is that school boards do not have an appropriate viewpoint for business dealings. Across multiple projects I delivered to school boards, they always demand far to high precision/features for their price point. Additionally, they would continue to request changes, but then were shocked when the change order resulted in additional costs. The basic contract would be very hard to deliver on budget because the number of people requesting changes that were ultimately not approved due to cost constraints. Then at project completion the pre would be rework to meet their standard. At the end of the day the analysis across three separate companies was to discontinue working for school boards, much easier and more profitable to engage with oil and gas companies.

Interesting, I find the same thing with smaller O&G companies and projects, maybe not to the same extent though. The larger companies seem to understand the change cost relationship as the project matures.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Governments are once burned twice shy. They didn't P3 Highway 63 because they were skittish. In theory it would have been a perfect project.

If so, then they have short memories. We all know how well traditional procurement worked out for NW Stoney Trail being done in a timely manner. Not saying it isn't possible though, since they probably had more issues than they would have liked with SE Stoney (and maybe NE AHD?)

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Governments are once burned twice shy. They didn't P3 Highway 63 because they were skittish. In theory it would have been a perfect project.

My understanding this was driven by schedule more than any angst with going the P3 route. There simply wasn't enough time to go through RFI/RFQ/RFP for when they wanted it done.

[Allan83]

Holy freeways batman.