PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[Teakwood]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Boston and San Fran have some of the largest underground highroller games in the country. Compared to Philly where we have some underground games ran in Chinatown that aren't really exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. It's kind of a joke.

The Provence is not a Las Vegas style gimmick. It's a RESORT which has an entertainment venue and casino attached (both of which are secondary to the resort itself). It'd be more like if there were a high end hotel with a casino on the top floor for people to go to -- that's very different than the business model that Vegas or Revel follows.

I'm not sure how this is isn't the business model of Revel. Both focus on dining, entertainment, and amenities before gambling. Part of Revel's failures are that the gaming floor is so difficult for many people to find.

Like Revel, this is an attempt to lure "high end" gamers. As Revel proves, the destination of Vegas is the lure for those gamers, not Revel's proximity to home. This will prove to be important likewise for Provence. While high end gamers may end up at Provence on a trip to Philadelphia, what exactly is the likelihood that they will come to Philadelphia because of Provence? While the place may be nice, classy, and higher end than other facilities, will the lure from that market be strong enough to sustain a complex? This is why slots are vital for its success, and will NOT cater to only ultra high end users. And perhaps the prevalence of those slot players may be enough to detract the "high end" gamers.

All of this is reliant on Blatstein's ability to produce the final product as promised. And as I stated earlier, his previous efforts leave a lot to desire. As strong of an importance the Piazza had on NoLibs, it isn't a shopping or dining destination, merely a hang out spot. Other than Bar Ferdinand and El Camino Real, I've regularly seen every other restaurant in the complex on Groupon, Livingsocial, etc. And the shopping always leaves a lot to be desired. If these same things will be said about the Provence, it will not be transformative to the neighborhood it lives in. It likely wouldn't be detrimental either. It will just exist within its own little enigmatic bubble.

[bawdycav]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Boston and San Fran have some of the largest underground highroller games in the country. Compared to Philly where we have some underground games ran in Chinatown that aren't really exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. It's kind of a joke.

The Provence is not a Las Vegas style gimmick. It's a RESORT which has an entertainment venue and casino attached (both of which are secondary to the resort itself). It'd be more like if there were a high end hotel with a casino on the top floor for people to go to -- that's very different than the business model that Vegas or Revel follows.

underground highroller games? I thought you are pushing credentials of the Provence as an above ground wealthy playground. How is pushing the Provence similar to an underground experience?

Boston and San Francisco don't have this thing you are crediting for what makes cities desirable to wealthy people...Nor do DC or LA or any number of cities with wealthy bases.

The Baltimores, Detroits, Clevelands of the world do have these "resort" developments.

Think of the class of cities you want to put yourself in before you make these arguments...

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Boston and San Fran have some of the largest underground high roller games in the country. Compared to Philly where we have some underground games ran in chinatown that aren't really exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. It's kind of a joke.

If this is true, then it would suggest that philly can't support high end high roller gaming, legal or illegal.

The Provence is not a Las Vegas style gimmick. It's a RESORT which has an entertainment venue and casino attached (both of which are secondary to the resort itself). It'd be more like if there were a high end hotel with a casino on the top floor for people to go to -- that's very different than the business model that Vegas or Revel follows.

Why not just build the high end resort without the slots barn, which rich people would not use?

Because it's a slots barn, not a high end resort.

The slots barn would likely open first and then SURPRISE! they'd probably call off the luxury resort and toss in some cheesy not high end Jersey Shore bro-menities.

"bro" in this (and prior contexts referenced in this thread) refers to the mainly white jocky fratboy pre-suburbanite temporarily urbanite crowd. It is not a racial slur.

[1487]

so unless Philly provides more options to the oppressed folks worth over $15M it's in trouble? Interesting. Philadelphia does not have the concentration of wealthy people that the other cities mentioned have. Some may see that as a negative but the positive is that it's one factor that keeps the city more affordable than its peers in the NE or cities like SF. You dont build a Gucci store to attract millionaires- the client base needs to exist before they open a store like that. CC doesn't have certain stores because the high end chains dont believe the Delaware valley really needs TWO of their stores. That may change over time but K of P has several stores that only have one location in a metro area of 5M+ people.

[Teakwood]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

We definitely share similar views. The only point that we may not completely align is what constituents “high end.” Walnut Street (and Center City) have attracted a lot of middle class to upper middle class oriented stores, but we haven’t attracted the truly highend designers yet. An example would be how we have a Barneys Co-Op and are getting a Nordstorm Rack but we’ve yet to get the real anchor stores. Additionally, there’s not a Gucci, Versace, Diane Von Furstenberg, or any up-and-coming highend designers to be found inside the city. Food wise, we have incredible food selection in this city – however, we no longer have any 5* dining now that Le Bec Fin closed (though Vetri could potentially be in the future, I suppose). And even education-wise, the main line far exceeds Philly in terms of the elite private school offering for K-12.

Don't get me wrong, I will be very excited to watch the progress of Provence and how it works out if it is chosen. However, the Provence will not house the stores and restaurants that you desire. There will be no Gucci, Versace, Diane Von Furstenberg shops on the rooftop. It will be Betsey Johnson, Swarovski Crystal, and Banana Republic. There will be one restaurant location that is perpetually closed, one that constantly changes names and themes, and one horribly Yelp rated "high end" French restaurant.

As far as existing restaurants, Vetri, Volver, and Sbraga fit the bill nicely. They all happen to be located around an attraction that is a guaranteed attraction in the Kimmel Center. And rich foodies seem to have no problem traveling to Passyunk Ave for authenticity.

[japmes]

To my mind, the best casino outcome would be for the license to go to Market 8 and for them to drive Sugarhouse out of business eventually. I think the location on Market Street has a better chance of being more than just a slot barn with its proximity to the convention center and tourist sites. The Provence concept seems out of place and too risky for its location and scale.

[Cro Burnham]

Reading these posts, it's almost funny imagining rich high rollers flocking to Broad & Callowhill, next to the broke-ass school district HQ, Community College, a major urban emergency room drop-off, and across from a massive, poorly maintained telecom hotel.

Could you pick a worse downtown location to appeal to the elite resort crowd?

There's plenty of land next to Holmesburg prison or over by the sewerage treatment plant, refineries and car crusher facilities. Maybe they can build an elite resort there?

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by japmes

To my mind, the best casino outcome would be for the license to go to Market 8 and for them to drive Sugarhouse out of business eventually.

And bring the Sugarhouse crowd to Market East? The folks who lock their toddlers in the car while they get their slots fix? OK, so they'll now have subway access, so they'll just lock the kids up alone home or leave them wandering in the Gallery. But it's the same people. Better to keep them up at Sugarhouse out of our sight and use market east for something better.

[McBane]

Market8 and Provence would both be beneficial, but I have to throw my weight to Blatstein, who has a proven history of riding the crest of an up and coming neighborhing to create a destination from the ground up.

If you don't like the Piazza because some of the bars serve Miller Lite to people who look like they came from NJ (talk about a generalization!), does that mean it's not successful? That it's not making money? That it isn't drawing crowds?

Market8 is a good proposal but I think there is enough momentum along Market East that and we could get something better at that location.

Both are pretty close to the Convention Center, so there's that and in either case, a large amount of business, regardless of who the developers say they are targeting, will be these conventioneers.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Your example just made my point -- what is there to do for wealthy suburban individuals: your response was late night dining. Point made -- there isn't anything so people go out for an early dinner at prime time between 6pm and 9pm. Then they go home because there are no other options. And this isn't just 60 year olds -- this is 30 year olds too who are over partying next to college students all the time.

Huh? The point is there's a ton of things to do for very wealthy people after dinner--your assertion that there isn't, just simply shows me that you don't know what you're talking about. And only in Boca Raton is 6-7p considered "prime time" for dinner. On weekend evenings, my wife, friends and I normally don't go out to dinner till 10p--so right as your uber rich hip suburbanite friends' heads are hitting their Frette lined pillow, i'm getting my first course. By the time they wake up for their mid-sleep piss at 1am, I'm probably 2 cocktails in at a speakeasy.

Listen, i'm in favor of Market 8 b/c i agree that nightlife diversity is a great thing. But this nonsense about you being in the know with these wealthy suburbanites who find CC boring b/c it doesn't have a place for high stakes poker just rings so unnecessarily pretentiously false and lame.

[Teakwood]

Originally Posted by McBane

Market8 and Provence would both be beneficial, but I have to throw my weight to Blatstein, who has a proven history of riding the crest of an up and coming neighborhing to create a destination from the ground up.

If you don't like the Piazza because some of the bars serve Miller Lite to people who look like they came from NJ (talk about a generalization!), does that mean it's not successful? That it's not making money? That it isn't drawing crowds?

Market8 is a good proposal but I think there is enough momentum along Market East that and we could get something better at that location.

Both are pretty close to the Convention Center, so there's that and in either case, a large amount of business, regardless of who the developers say they are targeting, will be these conventioneers.

The Piazza is a really nice space, and I have no issues with the patrons, but no, I do not think the businesses are making money. If they were, this wouldn't be a regular occurrence:

http://www.groupon.com/deals/pyt-philadelphia-1
http://www.groupon.com/deals/darlings-diner-1
https://www.groupon.com/biz/philadelphia/kings-oak
http://www.dealcatcher.com/local-coupon/gunners-run-philadelphia-1123238
http://www.groupon.com/deals/maxs-brew-bar


Or this:
http://philadelphia.grubstreet.com/2011/06/more_changes_afoot_at_the.html
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/the-i...n-its-way-out-of-Piazza-at-Schmidts.html

Or especially this:
http://philadelphia.grubstreet.com/2011/06/specks_failure_gets_dissected.html
http://philadelphia.grubstreet.com/2011/07/raw_opened_at_the_piazza.html
http://www.phillymag.com/foobooz/2014/01/03/crabby-cafe-sports-bar-replacing-maxs-piazza/

The failures of the restaurants that aren't directly on 2nd street on Liberties Walk are probably worse. The stores are also always changing. I can't imagine a similar project tucked away on a rooftop in an awkward part of town having more success bringing in lasting and quality vendors to make it the same destination as the Piazza.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by McBane

Market8 and Provence would both be beneficial, but I have to throw my weight to Blatstein, who has a proven history of riding the crest of an up and coming neighborhing to create a destination from the ground up.

If you don't like the Piazza because some of the bars serve Miller Lite to people who look like they came from NJ (talk about a generalization!), does that mean it's not successful? That it's not making money? That it isn't drawing crowds?

Market8 is a good proposal but I think there is enough momentum along Market East that and we could get something better at that location.

Both are pretty close to the Convention Center, so there's that and in either case, a large amount of business, regardless of who the developers say they are targeting, will be these conventioneers.

It's not successful. It is as a rental complex, but not as a shopping destination.

Save for a couple of restaurants, two of which are on the walk, most of the promising stuff that was there when the Piazza opened has since shuttered. There may be one or two exceptions (Jinxed, the Barber Shop), but otherwise, it's completely ordinary.

And for the most part, the businesses that do develop a following (One Shot Coffee), Brown Betty, the Bicycle shop, etc. leave Blatstein as soon as they can to get out from under him.

I've heard he charges ridiculous rents. I could be wrong...but if I were him, I would have kept rents artificially low to attract good/creative tenants and just made my money on the residential, of which he is/was making plenty.

The only positive I see out of this is that the Piazza is now owned by a different company. Maybe they'll see the error of his ways and take corrective actions...but the mix of stores is way off.

And if anyone thinks a nice retail tenant will set up shop on a ROOFTOP away from the eyes of pedestrian, then they're delusional. And if those stores are anywhere, they're going to go to Walnut Street. Period.

We forget Blatstein is a shopping center developer. He has changed his tune, but arguably, his best project is the Piazza, and that is only as good as it is because the Northern Liberties N.A. got heavily involved. If left to his own devices, that entire project would have been executed as well as Liberties Walk and all of the other rental projects he executed previously in NoLibs. (In other words, not well at all).

At every turn, he cost engineers the hell out of a project.

If you leave it to Blatstein alone, the Provenance will have $89 vinyl windows with fake in-window mullions and plastic balustrade fences from Home Depot on the roof.

I trust that Broad and South could be better, if only because the surrounding neighborhoods will insert themselves in the planning process and ensure the product is of a certain quality. Since Provenance isn't really in a neighborhood, no such mitigating factors will be present.

[bawdycav]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

It's not successful. It is as a rental complex, but not as a shopping destination.

Save for a couple of restaurants, two of which are on the walk, most of the promising stuff that was there when the Piazza opened has since shuttered. There may be one or two exceptions (Jinxed, the Barber Shop), but otherwise, it's completely ordinary.

And for the most part, the businesses that do develop a following (One Shot Coffee), Brown Betty, the Bicycle shop, etc. leave Blatstein as soon as they can to get out from under him.

I've heard he charges ridiculous rents. I could be wrong...but if I were him, I would have kept rents artificially low to attract good/creative tenants and just made my money on the residential, of which he is/was making plenty.

The only positive I see out of this is that the Piazza is now owned by a different company. Maybe they'll see the error of his ways and take corrective actions...but the mix of stores is way off.

And if anyone thinks a nice retail tenant will set up shop on a ROOFTOP away from the eyes of pedestrian, then they're delusional. And if those stores are anywhere, they're going to go to Walnut Street. Period.

We forget Blatstein is a shopping center developer. He has changed his tune, but arguably, his best project is the Piazza, and that is only as good as it is because the Northern Liberties N.A. got heavily involved. If left to his own devices, that entire project would have been executed as well as Liberties Walk and all of the other rental projects he executed previously in NoLibs. (In other words, not well at all).

At every turn, he cost engineers the hell out of a project.

If you leave it to Blatstein alone, the Provenance will have $89 vinyl windows with fake in-window mullions and plastic balustrade fences from Home Depot on the roof.

I trust that Broad and South could be better, if only because the surrounding neighborhoods will insert themselves in the planning process and ensure the product is of a certain quality. Since Provenance isn't really in a neighborhood, no such mitigating factors will be present.

well said!

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

It's not successful. It is as a rental complex, but not as a shopping destination.

Save for a couple of restaurants, two of which are on the walk, most of the promising stuff that was there when the Piazza opened has since shuttered. There may be one or two exceptions (Jinxed, the Barber Shop), but otherwise, it's completely ordinary.

And for the most part, the businesses that do develop a following (One Shot Coffee), Brown Betty, the Bicycle shop, etc. leave Blatstein as soon as they can to get out from under him.

I've heard he charges ridiculous rents. I could be wrong...but if I were him, I would have kept rents artificially low to attract good/creative tenants and just made my money on the residential, of which he is/was making plenty.

The only positive I see out of this is that the Piazza is now owned by a different company. Maybe they'll see the error of his ways and take corrective actions...but the mix of stores is way off.

And if anyone thinks a nice retail tenant will set up shop on a ROOFTOP away from the eyes of pedestrian, then they're delusional. And if those stores are anywhere, they're going to go to Walnut Street. Period.

We forget Blatstein is a shopping center developer. He has changed his tune, but arguably, his best project is the Piazza, and that is only as good as it is because the Northern Liberties N.A. got heavily involved. If left to his own devices, that entire project would have been executed as well as Liberties Walk and all of the other rental projects he executed previously in NoLibs. (In other words, not well at all).

At every turn, he cost engineers the hell out of a project.

If you leave it to Blatstein alone, the Provenance will have $89 vinyl windows with fake in-window mullions and plastic balustrade fences from Home Depot on the roof.

I trust that Broad and South could be better, if only because the surrounding neighborhoods will insert themselves in the planning process and ensure the product is of a certain quality. Since Provenance isn't really in a neighborhood, no such mitigating factors will be present.

almost totally agree - I hope no new casinos come personally

On the Piazza - they seem like tough space to rent a few restaurants seem ok there but the space doesn't seem to know what it wants to be with Liberties walk there is probably too much no street (main street) fronting retail

the Piazza on the whole is actually a decent space IMHO - would not live there personally but it has some appeal

[relnahe]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

And bring the Sugarhouse crowd to Market East? The folks who lock their toddlers in the car while they get their slots fix?

You're confusing Sugarhouse for Parx.

[Kfmcshan]

If Blatstein doesn't win his casino bid, I hope there is some focus on the lot at Broad and Washington. I like the updated "plan" more than the previous one, but would much prefer a proposal with more public space and smaller scale retail. Maybe a set of residential towers with restaurants and cafes at the base, lining a publicly accessible courtyard and the street. There could even be a nice 1 or 2 story grocery store along half of one of the blocks facing the street (since I believe the other plan called for one). I really do not know what Blatstein's real vision for the space is from the drawings and descriptions he gave, but I think something like this could be cool. What would everyone else like to see done with this lot?

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

Reading these posts, it's almost funny imagining rich high rollers flocking to Broad & Callowhill, next to the broke-ass school district HQ, Community College, a major urban emergency room drop-off, and across from a massive, poorly maintained telecom hotel.

Could you pick a worse downtown location to appeal to the elite resort crowd?

There's plenty of land next to Holmesburg prison or over by the sewerage treatment plant, refineries and car crusher facilities. Maybe they can build an elite resort there?

That location is only 5 blocks from the new Mormon Temple and the new high end hotel going beside it in the Family Court Building. It's 3 blocks from Goldtex and other higher end apartment buildings that also seem out of place given the surrounding. As I said in earlier posts, Market8 makes sense today but The Provence makes sense for the not so distant future. The entire Provence concept is centered around people being to drive off 676 and straight into parking garages/valet so the people aren't going to be walking around that area right now.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Huh? The point is there's a ton of things to do for very wealthy people after dinner--your assertion that there isn't, just simply shows me that you don't know what you're talking about. And only in Boca Raton is 6-7p considered "prime time" for dinner. On weekend evenings, my wife, friends and I normally don't go out to dinner till 10p--so right as your uber rich hip suburbanite friends' heads are hitting their Frette lined pillow, i'm getting my first course. By the time they wake up for their mid-sleep piss at 1am, I'm probably 2 cocktails in at a speakeasy.

Listen, i'm in favor of Market 8 b/c i agree that nightlife diversity is a great thing. But this nonsense about you being in the know with these wealthy suburbanites who find CC boring b/c it doesn't have a place for high stakes poker just rings so unnecessarily pretentiously false and lame.

There is no need to be rude. If you are going to address me, do it with respect or don't respond.

As stated, I service these type of clients all day long and work beside people like this each day. We have conversations about this stuff all the time; in fact, when we take clients to dinner we have to think about these things. On a number of occasions, we've had clients that like to do fun late night activities after they eat; however, everything in Philly is dominated by the young and lower income crowd at that hour.

Think about it. Create a real list of late night activities targeted towards a wealthier crowd that I can do in Philly with my clients who are trusting us with millions and hundreds of millions of dollars. Start listing specific examples. You are going to quickly begin to realize, the options are few and far between especially once you take all the restaurants and museums off the list. Sadly, the only VIP club area for the higher crowds is upstairs at Delilahs. That's about all Philly has. Think about it.

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Kfmcshan

If Blatstein doesn't win his casino bid, I hope there is some focus on the lot at Broad and Washington. I like the updated "plan" more than the previous one, but would much prefer a proposal with more public space and smaller scale retail. Maybe a set of residential towers with restaurants and cafes at the base, lining a publicly accessible courtyard and the street. There could even be a nice 1 or 2 story grocery store along half of one of the blocks facing the street (since I believe the other plan called for one). I really do not know what Blatstein's real vision for the space is from the drawings and descriptions he gave, but I think something like this could be cool. What would everyone else like to see done with this lot?

as someone who lives basically two blocks from this lot I hope it interfaces with Broad and Wash to a lessor extent.

this whole intersection has a ton of redevelopment potential and hope to see at least 1 (better) two sizable towers - to me this could include urban box stores. We don't need another pizza IMHO - this needs to bridge the Broad gap and start a redeveloped Wash in the area that can be developed much more intensely

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Where's the highend shopping in center city? How about 5 star restaurants? How about clubs that focus on VIP?

You're asking the wrong guy, as that is not my style. All I can offer up is my observations and what friends, coworkers, etc., are into and what I have learned through those means.