PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by relnahe

So having some of the most historic sites in America and having a number of world-class museums isn't an attraction but a glorified slots barn will?

Oh and that attendance list was from one year only. That year the PMA didn't have any large exhibitions. On the years the PMA has a big exhibition it is at the very top of museums visited.

I'm pointing out there are few very limited options in this city for more affluent people to do in Philly outside of museums and dining. But I don't expect you to understand that because I doubt you work with and around the target audience of The Provence each day -- I do. There is a business opportunity there. Not to sound elitist -- but there needs to be entertainment options for the upper middle class to affluent in this city -- something that is exclusive. It's fairly obvious that you don't understand the client this would be marketed to. Part of what makes a city unique and fun is having diverse entertainment options for all types of people. And there is a niche at the top that is definitely under-served.

[bawdycav]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I'm pointing out there are few very limited options in this city for more affluent people to do in Philly outside of museums and dining. But I don't expect you to understand that because I doubt you work with and around the target audience of The Provence each day -- I do. There is a business opportunity there. Not to sound elitist -- but there needs to be entertainment options for the upper middle class to affluent in this city -- something that is exclusive. It's fairly obvious that you don't understand the client this would be marketed to. Part of what makes a city unique and fun is having diverse entertainment options for all types of people. And there is a niche at the top that is definitely under-served.

isn't this the same argument for Revel Casino/Resort "Revel...would bring in more conventioneers, affluent New Yorkers who stayed overnight, shoppers for its high-end mall, and food enthusiasts to pack its celebrity-chef restaurants."

The Provence is just a cheesy play on the coat-tails of an economic development model that is behind the curve and fading in the US.

These two sites in center city are deeply valuable. and the next push for them should be forward thinking and not responding to a fading, over-tapped and over-supplied business model.

Philadelphia will get this right.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Definitely agree with you on all those points.

I work for one of the largest innovative technology companies in the area and I'm constantly surrounded by the types of people that Comcast wants to recruit more. These upper middle class technology people between 28 to 65 love coming into Philly from the burbs to go to the theater, museums, street festivals, and to eat. However, they all leave the city before 10 as there isn't anything to do for them afterwards -- Philadelphia's "sin city" evenings is tailored largely to people under 30 or lower income people.

I don't disagree with some of your other points but this is absurd. Your somewhat wealthy suburbanites flea the city at 10pm b/c it's boring? And not b/c they're 65 year old lame suburbanites who have to get to bed, or don't have a DD, or don't like trains because of " those people." And when those haute technology superclass men return to Merion at 10:15, what exactly are they up to? Last call at Seasons 22 at 11p? Gonna go hard with a ripped off cucumber cocktail contraption from the ultimately derivative Nectar?

Late evening fine dining and entertainment options for wealthy people abound in CC, if you don't know that, then you don't know what you're talking about (and should possibly get out more).

And since when did rich tech geeks become some benchmark of haute culture? My brother is a very highly paid software engineer for Yahoo in LA LA, and behind all his advanced degrees he knows about as much about fine wine and good spirits as I do programming language. I love him to death, but come on...

[EastSideHBG]

Wow judging by some of these comments it won't be long before people talk about Philly the way they do New York: it's nice now, but it was so much cooler "back then".

What makes a healthy city is a mixture of things catering to people from all walks of life, and I think CC does that pretty well. Heck if I had to gauge it, I'd say the pendulum has swung more towards the swankier end of the spectrum in CC proper and how many people can afford to live in CC now, dine in CC regularly, park in CC regularly, etc.? I've seen more Maserati's, Lambos, etc., in CC now than I have ever before. Sure, nothing says these folks have to live in CC and I am sure a percentage come from outside of the city but the point is, they aren't frequenting the same establishments the "regular Joe's" are; the draw is definitely there, and I'd say more so now than ever.

I actually think that with the direction things are going the trick is going to be finding ways to include everyone across the spectrum vs. inadvertently shutting people out.

[Cro Burnham]

What specific forms of late night entertainment do the super elite seek that Bart would provide? Are we talking Vanilla Sky here?

If there is such a lucrative opportunity to provide these elite human beings with these things, couldn't Bart build Provence without 500 slot machines. I mean, wouldn't mindless brainless slot machines be a turn-off to this crowd? Or would these somehow be elite slot machines that would appeal to super smart tech partiers and financial wizards?

I am all for the development of an obscenely expensive resort entertainment complex only accessible to the wealthy. I'd even love to see it with table games. But I fail to see how hundreds of slot machines fit into this model. The concept, if realistic, should work fine without slots.

This is why I think Bart's idea is a fraud. It's just another slots parlor pitched as something awesome that will never actually materialize. Market8 too. We'll just end up with another Sugarhouse bringing hoards of sorry losers to areas that would otherwise be on the verge of revival.

[relnahe]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I'm pointing out there are few very limited options in this city for more affluent people to do in Philly outside of museums and dining. But I don't expect you to understand that because I doubt you work with and around the target audience of The Provence each day -- I do. There is a business opportunity there. Not to sound elitist -- but there needs to be entertainment options for the upper middle class to affluent in this city -- something that is exclusive. It's fairly obvious that you don't understand the client this would be marketed to. Part of what makes a city unique and fun is having diverse entertainment options for all types of people. And there is a niche at the top that is definitely under-served.

Oh come'on; the poor, the middle class, and the rich all do the same things. Its just that the names on the labels of the drinks are different, the clothes come from different stores, and the cars have different models and mileage.

Great way to sound so pretentious. I'm so glad you know whether or not if I rub elbows with snooty types.

Also I'd love to know about some "high-end" casino that exists outside of Vegas in the US. A number of the casinos all over the country say they'll be designed for the elites and its always a pipe dream. Even Vegas outside of a few casinos is nowhere on the level of a Monaco or Macau.

[cafeguy]

THE ONLY MONEY LEFT TO BE MADE BY A CASINO IS FROM THE POCKETS OF A TOURIST, BUT, HAVING A CASINO WON'T BRING MORE TOURISTS... THUS... PUTTING IT AS CLOSE TO THESE TOURISTS AS POSSIBLE IS THE BEST WAY TO MAKE MONEY.

No one is going to come to Philly for its casino. That is that. In 5 years, EVERY major city will have a downtown casino (even baltimore is looking into building one). A fun casino will never cause someone to choose philly for a vacation or trip. It will simply be an extra amenity to visiting philly - nothing more than a nice movie theater conveniently located to a tourist district.

New Orlean's downtown casino has been hit hard a lot over the years, but it has survived and is centrally located to all the great things new orleans has. You could use the success/failures of that casino to predict a few things about a downtown casino in philly. Right now, New Orleans sees 9 million visitors a year and only 40% of the revenue generated at the casino comes from these visitors.... so of the approx $316 million that it makes a year, $124 mil is from tourists.... so we might be able to say that 9 million tourists generate $124 million in revenue. With Philly's 40 million visitors a year, you can use this information to consider how much revenue might be generated by a downtown casino - $551 million.

So the next number to consider is how many tourists travel to sugarhouse to gamble. I would imagine it is not that many. The casino market is saturated. We will not generate more revenue from people driving into the city. We will not increase tourism with having a casino, but we will increase revenue by putting a casino close to these tourists. On top of that, stand alone casinos will offer nothing of an incentive to visit. With all this information, its clear that the best casino is one that is conveniently located to tourists. That will be the biggest draw.

The only money to be made in this new casino climate is from tourists. The two south philly locations will not get as many tourists as the center city locations, even with their sahara sams-style water park and space needle. The Inquirer building, as nice as it could become, is across 676 and out of the way for a tourist. Heck, that walk at night isn't very nice either! As much as Blatstein's idea of marketing it as a resort first is the way to go, Market8 is in the best location, has the best plan, and is the most likely to take the only money that is left for casinos to make - from the tourist's pockets.

[Philly-Drew]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I don't disagree with some of your other points but this is absurd. Your somewhat wealthy suburbanites flea the city at 10pm b/c it's boring? And not b/c they're 65 year old lame suburbanites who have to get to bed, or don't have a DD, or don't like trains because of " those people." And when those haute technology superclass men return to Merion at 10:15, what exactly are they up to? Last call at Seasons 22 at 11p? Gonna go hard with a ripped off cucumber cocktail contraption from the ultimately derivative Nectar?

Late evening fine dining and entertainment options for wealthy people abound in CC, if you don't know that, then you don't know what you're talking about (and should possibly get out more).

And since when did rich tech geeks become some benchmark of haute culture? My brother is a very highly paid software engineer for Yahoo in LA LA, and behind all his advanced degrees he knows about as much about fine wine and good spirits as I do programming language. I love him to death, but come on...

I have to agree with Londonee here. We have quite a few friends that come in from the mainline for dinner, theatre, then dessert, drinks, walking around, etc. In fact,we have way,way more people coming into town for recreation then the other way around.

Also consider the fact that we have so many neighbors and friends that live in town, who stay in town when they are going out. We just walk, or uber it wherever we feel like going. No need to drive, or pick friends up. Just meet out.

I mean, it's not like people in town are excited about leaving town when going out. Unless it's to the beach for the weekend or something.

Maybe you were trying to say something that wasn't interpreted correctly, but the way I interpret it, you seem to be saying there is nothing going on in town later in the evening.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I don't disagree with some of your other points but this is absurd. Your somewhat wealthy suburbanites flea the city at 10pm b/c it's boring? And not b/c they're 65 year old lame suburbanites who have to get to bed, or don't have a DD, or don't like trains because of " those people." And when those haute technology superclass men return to Merion at 10:15, what exactly are they up to? Last call at Seasons 22 at 11p? Gonna go hard with a ripped off cucumber cocktail contraption from the ultimately derivative Nectar?

Late evening fine dining and entertainment options for wealthy people abound in CC, if you don't know that, then you don't know what you're talking about (and should possibly get out more).

And since when did rich tech geeks become some benchmark of haute culture? My brother is a very highly paid software engineer for Yahoo in LA LA, and behind all his advanced degrees he knows about as much about fine wine and good spirits as I do programming language. I love him to death, but come on...

You have to look at it in the context that we were talking about Comcast expansion. I work on the technology side of financial services and we only service clients with $15m+ in investable assets. And we aren't all technology folks at my company -- any large company employees legal, marketing, sales, solutions, technology, etc. As I said, we were talking about this in the context of Comcast expansion which someone said would bring lots of people to the city -- in context, San Fran and Boston produce some of the best gamblers bc they have strong tech scenes. If Philly wants to dive into technology, they need to consider the type of people that will be coming into the city and what they like to do.

Your example just made my point -- what is there to do for wealthy suburban individuals: your response was late night dining. Point made -- there isn't anything so people go out for an early dinner at prime time between 6pm and 9pm. Then they go home because there are no other options. And this isn't just 60 year olds -- this is 30 year olds too who are over partying next to college students all the time.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Wow judging by some of these comments it won't be long before people talk about Philly the way they do New York: it's nice now, but it was so much cooler "back then".

What makes a healthy city is a mixture of things catering to people from all walks of life, and I think CC does that pretty well. Heck if I had to gauge it, I'd say the pendulum has swung more towards the swankier end of the spectrum in CC proper and how many people can afford to live in CC now, dine in CC regularly, park in CC regularly, etc.? I've seen more Maserati's, Lambos, etc., in CC now than I have ever before. Sure, nothing says these folks have to live in CC and I am sure a percentage come from outside of the city but the point is, they aren't frequenting the same establishments the "regular Joe's" are; the draw is definitely there, and I'd say more so now than ever.

I actually think that with the direction things are going the trick is going to be finding ways to include everyone across the spectrum vs. inadvertently shutting people out.

Where's the highend shopping in center city? How about 5 star restaurants? How about clubs that focus on VIP?

Center City has produced more options for the middle class, but very few options for the wealthy.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by relnahe

Oh come'on; the poor, the middle class, and the rich all do the same things. Its just that the names on the labels of the drinks are different, the clothes come from different stores, and the cars have different models and mileage.

Great way to sound so pretentious. I'm so glad you know whether or not if I rub elbows with snooty types.

Also I'd love to know about some "high-end" casino that exists outside of Vegas in the US. A number of the casinos all over the country say they'll be designed for the elites and its always a pipe dream. Even Vegas outside of a few casinos is nowhere on the level of a Monaco or Macau.

As people develop increased levels of wealth, their needs actually change drastically. Suddenly, everyone is trying to get next to them to ask for money, support, or something else. I used to feel like you that we were all the same, but after hearing their stories and seeing their money management needs up close, there is a clear division.

This city is filled with activities for everyone else. I'm merely pointing out that there are few options for the wealthy. This should be something that we all support as bringing in the wealthy allows Philly to collect huge taxes which reduces the tax burden on middle/low income people. It's a win-win situation for all. But we'll never get to that point if we don't acknowledge there is a real need for something on that upper niche.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Philly-Drew

I have to agree with Londonee here. We have quite a few friends that come in from the mainline for dinner, theatre, then dessert, drinks, walking around, etc. In fact,we have way,way more people coming into town for recreation then the other way around.

Also consider the fact that we have so many neighbors and friends that live in town, who stay in town when they are going out. We just walk, or uber it wherever we feel like going. No need to drive, or pick friends up. Just meet out.

I mean, it's not like people in town are excited about leaving town when going out. Unless it's to the beach for the weekend or something.

Maybe you were trying to say something that wasn't interpreted correctly, but the way I interpret it, you seem to be saying there is nothing going on in town later in the evening.

I agree with your points.

What I'm saying is there are few options in center city for more affluent people to do in the later evening. Of course, dining, walking around, etc. But if they want to go to a bar they are limited to a handful of bars that aren't dominated by the under 28 crowd. Most things in Philly in the evening are dominated by the younger people and it limits the options of what people can do. All I'm saying is I think an entertainment/casino venue that had increased prices would keep the young and lower income from overwhelming the space and give the wealthy or older individuals an activity to do as the current options are fairly limited.

I understand how some of the things I've said can be misconstrued as "elitist." But think of it this way -- how many people hate Love Park because of all the skaters? Or how many people hate riding SEPTA because of the crazy stuff that goes down on there? There is a group of people out there that feel the same way about walking around the city at night and after they have dinner, there are few activities that are catered to them. A blended use resort, entertainment complex, casino, shopping area, theater, etc could be a tremendous asset for the city.

[eliasrapp98]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Where's the highend shopping in center city? How about 5 star restaurants? How about clubs that focus on VIP?

Center City has produced more options for the middle class, but very few options for the wealthy.

A casino isn't going to fix that. I do however agree that wealthier options is something the city semi-lacks. This will come however. Once the CITC, FMC, etc are built, more wealthier people will be moving to Philadelphia. Once that happens we'll see more. Philly, on the restaurant front, has tons of expensive, amazing, interesting places to eat. That's something our city has seriously improved on and has turned into a strength in these last 5 years. Walnut St has provided tons of high end shopping that the city had lacked before and it is slowly moving into Samson and Chestnut streets. Market East is getting it too soon. I do think some kind of resort like thing might be good for Philly. We've had the boutique faze, now we're getting more standard stuff that's big (SLS, W, Marriott, and Kimpton). Of course there's the new Four Seasons too. I wouldn't be COMPLETELY against a mainly resort, beautiful hotel that did include a small casino section, but I really would just prefer a beautiful hotel.

[bawdycav]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

You have to look at it in the context that we were talking about Comcast expansion. I work on the technology side of financial services and we only service clients with $15m+ in investable assets. And we aren't all technology folks at my company -- any large company employees legal, marketing, sales, solutions, technology, etc. As I said, we were talking about this in the context of Comcast expansion which someone said would bring lots of people to the city -- in context, San Fran and Boston produce some of the best gamblers bc they have strong tech scenes. If Philly wants to dive into technology, they need to consider the type of people that will be coming into the city and what they like to do.

Your example just made my point -- what is there to do for wealthy suburban individuals: your response was late night dining. Point made -- there isn't anything so people go out for an early dinner at prime time between 6pm and 9pm. Then they go home because there are no other options. And this isn't just 60 year olds -- this is 30 year olds too who are over partying next to college students all the time.

To raise the Boston and San Fran names to make your point simply rebuffs your own point. Anyone who knows both Boston and San Fran, knows neither of those cities has gambling or resorts in this context. And yet they have lots of wealth because they have broad-based and sustainable economies. This is the larger point...cities with real sustainable wealth and economic diversity don't need these gambling resort gimmicks. It works for Las Vegas because Las Vegas is unique. Try this anywhere else and you get the Revel. This is a business model that is tapped out, truly.

You are making all these sweeping generalizations about what wealthy people want and its all falling flat on the facts.

[Philly-Drew]

Well, I understand the point of a resort-type of place with a smaller gambling component. I was really hoping for that when Sugar House was approved. I thought it would be good to have more "entertainment". I'd personally would like to see a shopping/ entertainment complex/ hotel/ condo/ casino project go up at 8th and market. Especially if the casino was only a smaller part of the equation. If done properly, I think it would be really fun. I'd go there occasionally. But if it's a casino and not much else, then I have to agree with those who are against it.

For me, 8th and Market makes the most sense. After that, the providence is probably the next best bet. After that, don't even do a casino.

I view the revenue generated from the Sugar House as being "recycled" Philadelphia money. Meaning, if I made a dollar while living in Philadelphia, then the city already taxed it when I was paid. If I go and spend the remainder of that dollar at the Sugar House, then the city is taxing that same dollar again. This means that I can't spend that dollar somewhere else in town. Therefore the scope of the tax revenue is local, and limited in size. If the city is bringing in new money that wasn't generated here in Philadelphia, then the city is taxing "fresh" money that otherwise would be spent somewhere else. This could lend to a larger scope, and provide outside money to the city. It would be much better for the city to develop strategies for taxing more fresh money, then to continue taxing recycled money.

IMHO, 8th and market makes the best sense for taxing outside money. It also provides easy transportation for the locals who will work there. Much of the clientele would have to be those staying in the multitude of hotels within a walking distance or short cab ride. I really think this makes the best sense.

If the other casino gets approved and is not in Center City, I will be disappointed.

[Cro Burnham]

I respect Screamshatter's sense that philly is not a playground for the rich, and perhaps it could be.

But there is a tenuous link between creating a playground for the rich and the need for a glorified slots parlor in the same space.

As NY, Boston, SF, LA, DC demonstrate, it is normal for a city to meet the entertainment needs of the rich without slots or even (legal) table games.

But Blatstein and Goldenberg would not do these projects without slots, which is proof that their target audience is not the rich.

"Luring the rich" is a bogus pretext for getting a slots parlor downtown with easy access to hoards of decidedly not rich people. The rich will never come to either Provence or Market8, and lux upscale amenities will probably never come to pass once the actual character of the clientele becomes evident (like, immediately).

I can't believe some of you fall for the bait and switch ovet and over.

A rich resort with a slot parlor in downtown philly . . . c'mon, people.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

I respect Screamshatter's sense that philly is not a playground for the rich, and perhaps it could be.

But there is a tenuous link between creating a playground for the rich and the need for a glorified slots parlor in the same space.

As NY, Boston, SF, LA, DC demonstrate, it is normal for a city to meet the entertainment needs of the rich without slots or even (legal) table games.

But Blatstein and Goldenberg would not do these projects without slots, which is proof that their target audience is not the rich.

"Luring the rich" is a bogus pretext for getting a slots parlor downtown with easy access to hoards of decidedly not rich people. The rich will never come to either Provence or Market8, and lux upscale amenities will probably never come to pass once the actual character of the clientele becomes evident (like, immediately).

I can't believe some of you fall for the bait and switch ovet and over.

A rich resort with a slot parlor in downtown philly . . . c'mon, people.

Agree 100%. I know there are a lot of people here who are rooting for Market 8 because of the desire to get a tall building built there. The thing is a casino isn't the only thing that can get built there and I think once this Casino business is behind us the owners of the Market 8 property can begin to turn their sights to a much better use of prime real estate on the suddenly hopping market east corridor.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by bawdycav

To raise the Boston and San Fran names to make your point simply rebuffs your own point. Anyone who knows both Boston and San Fran, knows neither of those cities has gambling or resorts in this context. And yet they have lots of wealth because they have broad-based and sustainable economies. This is the larger point...cities with real sustainable wealth and economic diversity don't need these gambling resort gimmicks. It works for Las Vegas because Las Vegas is unique. Try this anywhere else and you get the Revel. This is a business model that is tapped out, truly.

You are making all these sweeping generalizations about what wealthy people want and its all falling flat on the facts.

Boston and San Fran have some of the largest underground highroller games in the country. Compared to Philly where we have some underground games ran in Chinatown that aren't really exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. It's kind of a joke.

The Provence is not a Las Vegas style gimmick. It's a RESORT which has an entertainment venue and casino attached (both of which are secondary to the resort itself). It'd be more like if there were a high end hotel with a casino on the top floor for people to go to -- that's very different than the business model that Vegas or Revel follows.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by eliasrapp98

A casino isn't going to fix that. I do however agree that wealthier options is something the city semi-lacks. This will come however. Once the CITC, FMC, etc are built, more wealthier people will be moving to Philadelphia. Once that happens we'll see more. Philly, on the restaurant front, has tons of expensive, amazing, interesting places to eat. That's something our city has seriously improved on and has turned into a strength in these last 5 years. Walnut St has provided tons of high end shopping that the city had lacked before and it is slowly moving into Samson and Chestnut streets. Market East is getting it too soon. I do think some kind of resort like thing might be good for Philly. We've had the boutique faze, now we're getting more standard stuff that's big (SLS, W, Marriott, and Kimpton). Of course there's the new Four Seasons too. I wouldn't be COMPLETELY against a mainly resort, beautiful hotel that did include a small casino section, but I really would just prefer a beautiful hotel.

We definitely share similar views. The only point that we may not completely align is what constituents “high end.” Walnut Street (and Center City) have attracted a lot of middle class to upper middle class oriented stores, but we haven’t attracted the truly highend designers yet. An example would be how we have a Barneys Co-Op and are getting a Nordstorm Rack but we’ve yet to get the real anchor stores. Additionally, there’s not a Gucci, Versace, Diane Von Furstenberg, or any up-and-coming highend designers to be found inside the city. Food wise, we have incredible food selection in this city – however, we no longer have any 5* dining now that Le Bec Fin closed (though Vetri could potentially be in the future, I suppose). And even education-wise, the main line far exceeds Philly in terms of the elite private school offering for K-12.

Center City has so much to offer. Often on here, we talk about what we’d need to do in order to get middle class families to move back into the city. I also believe there are things that need to be done to attract the wealthy and even wealthy families. There’s a lot of money that could flow into this city very easily if we had the proper combination of factors – and that would benefit us all and diversify our local economy for the better.

[bawdycav]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Boston and San Fran have some of the largest underground highroller games in the country. Compared to Philly where we have some underground games ran in Chinatown that aren't really exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. It's kind of a joke.

The Provence is not a Las Vegas style gimmick. It's a RESORT which has an entertainment venue and casino attached (both of which are secondary to the resort itself). It'd be more like if there were a high end hotel with a casino on the top floor for people to go to -- that's very different than the business model that Vegas or Revel follows.

the Provence proposal is for a disney-like french theme experience. We aren't in france! And to try to copy that in this retail way is a gimmick that will be exposed as inauthentic. world class cities of the 1st order, with vibrant economies and a wealthy base of citizenry don't do this kind of gimmick development, period.

I think the point you are trying to make, but doing poorly, is that there is a dearth of high end shopping and entertainment in Philadelphia. That may be true. But that comes from first having jobs that bring in wealthier residents/individuals/business travelers and then retailers responding to that demand.

Your cause and effect is reversed.

I dont blame philadelphia, as this is a product of the state of pennsylvania that we are even considering this as a economic development driver. But seriously, if you want to attract wealthier citizens you step up your game on jobs not goofy inauthentic resorts.