Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[jubguy3]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

Where did you find that at?

It was within one of the tables with the pink squares and criteria. I'll find which one it is

[jubguy3]

PDF page 70. (Enlarge World Trade Center as proposed in downtown rising 2008).

I hope I interpreted it correctly

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Tunnels aren't... Not only that.. Rules can be changed.


I would rather have a tunnel or a crosswalk where ever it is... It may not even have a direct connection to the salt palace period. I some how have a feeling it's going to end up on the block east of the salt palace.

A tunnel just doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure why you keep including tunnel as an option. In order for the salt palace to be competitive the hotel will need a direct connection that is contiguous with the salt palace's exhibit space.

The only exception to the skybridge rule I would make would be to include 100 south, between 200 West and 300 West.

Additionally, regarding the location of the CCH, The Royal Wood Plaza block is the only location option we've discussed that is considered part of the "Salt Palace District" on the new city plans we're discussing.

[ajiuO]

The CCC is not a salt palace expansion. It's neither owned nor operated by the salt palace. It is a hotel witch also has additional continuos convention space.

The plan also says that the central business distric is defined by having the city's tallest buildings. Putting the hotell on the border of the CBD certainly fits that bill. With the only certainties on the CCC being that it must be within 1000' and have continuous convention space (not necessarily connected to the salt palace).. it still fits the bill. The CCC is not a salt palace expansion... and its location will not likly be decided based upon a skybridge.. there are other options no matter where they put it..

I think the city will see the redevelopment of the block east of the salt palace as a much better investment for the city.. it will really compleat an area that so much has alread been invested in.

I think that APS and everything along 100 south will be demolished (with the possible acception of ZIONS bank), maybe even the north most two buildings on main, the tower will go on the SE corner of w temple & 100 S putting it right on the border of the CBD and the salt palace, the rest of the land will be convention space with street side retail and eating..

I will still root for the plaza.. but this is more along the lines of what I think the reality will be.. but hey.. you were wrong about UPAC going on that block.. So I could be wrong about the CCC going on that block.. just a gut instinct :-)

[ajiuO]

I think a good portion of the RWP block will eventually be used for a salt palace expansion.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

The CCC is not a salt palace expansion. It's neither owned nor operated by the salt palace. It is a hotel witch also has additional continuos convention space.

The plan also says that the central business distric is defined by having the city's tallest buildings. Putting the hotell on the border of the CBD certainly fits that bill. With the only certainties on the CCC being that it must be within 1000' and have continuous convention space (not necessarily connected to the salt palace).. it still fits the bill. The CCC is not a salt palace expansion... and its location will not likly be decided based upon a skybridge.. there are other options no matter where they put it..

I think the city will see the redevelopment of the block east of the salt palace as a much better investment for the city.. it will really compleat an area that so much has alread been invested in.

I think that APS and everything along 100 south will be demolished (with the possible acception of ZIONS bank), maybe even the north most two buildings on main, the tower will go on the SE corner of w temple & 100 S putting it right on the border of the CBD and the salt palace, the rest of the land will be convention space with street side retail and eating..

I will still root for the plaza.. but this is more along the lines of what I think the reality will be.. but hey.. you were wrong about UPAC going on that block.. So I could be wrong about the CCC going on that block.. just a gut instinct :-)

As I understand it, the parking and meeting space in the hotel will be owned and operated by the County. It doesn't make much sense for the county to get involved in this project if the meeting space is not contiguous with or even convenient to the salt palace. otherwise, it acts as a completely different facility. If the county pulls out, this project will not materialize.

We've already determined that expanding the skyline is something everyone agrees with, but this is definitely a secondary concern.

The east side of the Convention Center is already ripe for private investment (infill and reuse). Therefore, it'd be a waste to locate the CCH here. But the west side of the convention center could really use that shot in the arm.

On another note: I didn't know Salt Lake City was getting a "hotel witch!" Is that like a concierge wizard? Sounds cool, and would further help our claim to being the Halloween capitol of the world!

[DMTower]

While I think there is some possibility APS could be picked by a private developer, either RWP or the Plaza lot seem much more an obvious choice and make much more sense from the City and County perspective. The Salt Palace will eventually engulf the RWP block anyway, so might as well build the hotel there where it will meld with the SP best.

[ajiuO]

If the city simply wanted more continous convdntion space as part of the salt palace.. They would only need to expand the salt palace.. Witch I do think they will do at some point.

No where is this project described as a salt palace expantion. The primary goal is a large amount of hotel space in one facility.. And then... Some large continuous space.. All this buisness about needing to be connected to the salt palace is imaginary. The proximity radius would certainly not be 1000' if being attached to the salt palace in any way we're a requirement.

I think the city knows that regardless of what space the CCH adds that the salt palace will still eventualy require an expansion. The only feasible place for such an expansion is RWP... So I think they will save this location.

Redevelopment of the west temple and main street are a much better value then 200 west.. Especially with CCC and UPAC.. It would really give the area a strong core to work out from.. The salt palace creates to much fragmentation to put somthing like that west of it.. Putting guest closer to central down town and trax is just a smart buisness move. I'm sorry but gateway is not going to be much of a POI. For guest..

If you really want to connect centrle down town to gateway.. South temple is the place to do it.. And that even seems to show in the master plan.. There is nothing interesting on 200 south that would be a draw.. Putting a hotell on 200 west will not be that draw. it will take people one moere block and then it will just be mehh going west from there.. south temple has the depot and ESA witch are a far more interestig and pleasnt draw for people.. the only thing south temple is mising is some streetside engaugmrnt for about a block and a half.. the master plan calls for that.. i think the CCC would bd great in south temple.. but ultimatly think it will go east of the salt palace.

plus.. i really do not want to see what will probable be our tallest building west of west temple.. to much fragmentation.. i dont think its going to happen.. but iv been wrong. :-)

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

If the city simply wanted more continous convdntion space as part of the salt palace.. They would only need to expand the salt palace.. Witch I do think they will do at some point.

No where is this project described as a salt palace expantion. The primary goal is a large amount of hotel space in one facility.. And then... Some large continuous space.. All this buisness about needing to be connected to the salt palace is imaginary. The proximity radius would certainly not be 1000' if being attached to the salt palace in any way we're a requirement.

I think the city knows that regardless of what space the CCH adds that the salt palace will still eventualy require an expansion. The only feasible place for such an expansion is RWP... So I think they will save this location.

Redevelopment of the west temple and main street are a much better value then 200 west.. Especially with CCC and UPAC.. It would really give the area a strong core to work out from.. The salt palace creates to much fragmentation to put somthing like that west of it.. Putting guest closer to central down town and trax is just a smart buisness move. I'm sorry but gateway is not going to be much of a POI. For guest..

If you really want to connect centrle down town to gateway.. South temple is the place to do it.. And that even seems to show in the master plan.. There is nothing interesting on 200 south that would be a draw.. Putting a hotell on 200 west will not be that draw. it will take people one moere block and then it will just be mehh going west from there.. south temple has the depot and ESA witch are a far more interestig and pleasnt draw for people.. the only thing south temple is mising is some streetside engaugmrnt for about a block and a half.. the master plan calls for that.. i think the CCC would bd great in south temple.. but ultimatly think it will go east of the salt palace.

plus.. i really do not want to see what will probable be our tallest building west of west temple.. to much fragmentation.. i dont think its going to happen.. but iv been wrong. :-)

I disagree that 200 south (west of RWP) is "mehh" There are shops, two restaurants, and loft housing along that block. Past there you have the gateway restaurants, shopping and a megaplex right there. How is that not a point of interest?

200 South is a better option for a connector between the CBD and gateway. It has better street engagement, and is further along in this process.

We don't need additional redevelopment east of the Convention Center, we need more infill and reuse here. Which will happen on it's own because of the recent investment in this area. However, the area west of the Convention Center NEEDS the investment.

Talk of being connected to the Salt Palace is not imaginary. Convention centers that are directly connected to a convention hotel are more competitive than convention centers that aren't.

Saving Royal Wood Plaza for another expansion of the salt palace would provide terrible street engagement along 200 South. A hotel would immensely improve the non-existant street engagement along that stretch of 200 South (RWP), whereas a hotel would diminish existing street engagement along 100 south (APS).

The skyline has nothing to do with economic strategy.

Royal wood Plaza is a centralized location to downtown points of interest:

[asies1981]

Update on Newhouse apartments in downtown.

[Makid]

With regards to the CCH, it is confirmed that there are 5 to 6 sites that would work for the CCH.

The path chosen for the hotel as has been reported is that a developer will be chosen for the project first. This is based on the RFP which the format was just finalized recently and will be issued shortly.

The developer will then pick the location that they think will work best for the hotel and their pocket book. We need to remember that the public money is post performance (like nearly all state incentives).

This does mean that the developer will be picking the location that in essence gives them the fastest ROI. To do this, the developer would want to limit nearby competition to features and amenities included with the hotel (Bars, restaurants, shopping, etc.).

With this logic, RWP is basically the top pick. There isn't anything really around it right now. Eventually there will be more in the area as well as a street car but those will come slowly over time. This would give the developer the most return based on better use of their facilities rather than others.

Outside of the above, it is my understanding that no site is going to be shown as better or worse than any other. The reason for this is that the developer will be purchasing the land and any favoritism of a site over another may cause the acquisition costs to rise. With a fully competitive selection, the developer would be able to pit the land owners against each other to possibly bring prices down, which would further increase their ROI.

Lastly, I wouldn't expect to see the Salt Palace do an expansion directly for expansion sake until the CCH has been open for a year or 2 unless future convention bookings exceed the projected forecast. This may very well happen which is why I have said that I wouldn't be surprised to hear about another large hotel to be build near the Salt Palace after the CCH is under construction.

As for the location, I think we will hear about that shortly after the developer is selected.

[ajiuO]

Gateway as a whole will not be a POI for out of towners. Particulary the south end where all the locally known poi's are.. It's a trashy area.. Word gets around quick.. There is absolutely nothing they will need over there.. I'm sure some will venture over there.. But it's nothing to build a CCH around... I'm just saying out of downers would be more likely to go down south temple.. 200 south is not only meh.. It's ehh. You forget that 200 south is where a lot of drugged out transients hang out.. People from out of town are not going to want to head in to that. They don't care about loft condoes and a convenience store.. There are plenty of nice places to eat not at gateway..

Gateway is a sad place.. There are over 50 empty stores.. I've counted them my self.. The theater is one of the worst in the state. It has outdated sound system and screens, inferior 3D, the seats have not been changed since the place opens, they don't even have access to the iMax any more.. Gateway had better come up with a serious redevelopment plan before a new theater is built down town.. Cuz that is probably the main thing bringing buisness in right now.

I think giving guest acsess to trax, temple square, and s nice down town experience is a better bet then giving them acsess to gateway.. If people from out of town really need to go to gateway for a specific reason.. They would probably feel safer walking down south temple or taking trax then second south

The depot and Esa is so much more inviting and safe looking then a trashy apartment building, transient camps, some lofts and a convinence store. 200 south could be nice.. But no one is willing to do anything about the problems on the street.. So it probably never will be.. Just as the west rip grand probably never will be.. I'm not going anywhere near west rio grand with all the druggies and crap back there.

[Orlando]

Any word on Air 7? Is it on hold to secure financing or is it moving forward? I am a little skeptical about this project getting built.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Makid

With regards to the CCH, it is confirmed that there are 5 to 6 sites that would work for the CCH.

The path chosen for the hotel as has been reported is that a developer will be chosen for the project first. This is based on the RFP which the format was just finalized recently and will be issued shortly.

The developer will then pick the location that they think will work best for the hotel and their pocket book. We need to remember that the public money is post performance (like nearly all state incentives).

This does mean that the developer will be picking the location that in essence gives them the fastest ROI. To do this, the developer would want to limit nearby competition to features and amenities included with the hotel (Bars, restaurants, shopping, etc.).

With this logic, RWP is basically the top pick. There isn't anything really around it right now. Eventually there will be more in the area as well as a street car but those will come slowly over time. This would give the developer the most return based on better use of their facilities rather than others.

Outside of the above, it is my understanding that no site is going to be shown as better or worse than any other. The reason for this is that the developer will be purchasing the land and any favoritism of a site over another may cause the acquisition costs to rise. With a fully competitive selection, the developer would be able to pit the land owners against each other to possibly bring prices down, which would further increase their ROI.

Lastly, I wouldn't expect to see the Salt Palace do an expansion directly for expansion sake until the CCH has been open for a year or 2 unless future convention bookings exceed the projected forecast. This may very well happen which is why I have said that I wouldn't be surprised to hear about another large hotel to be build near the Salt Palace after the CCH is under construction.

As for the location, I think we will hear about that shortly after the developer is selected.

You could say the exact same thing about South temple.. However it is in a nice area...

Another thing that few people have mentiond... A current hotell operator may wish to rebuild and expand. The Radison, shilo, and Marriott are all possibilities. Along with the plaza.. What if the LDS development arm decides they want to develop on the plaza block.. They already have prime property.. So many posabilities.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Gateway as a whole will not be a POI for out of towners. Particulary the south end where all the locally known poi's are.. It's a trashy area.. Word gets around quick.. There is absolutely nothing they will need over there.. I'm sure some will venture over there.. But it's nothing to build a CCH around... I'm just saying out of downers would be more likely to go down south temple.. 200 south is not only meh.. It's ehh. You forget that 200 south is where a lot of drugged out transients hang out.. People from out of town are not going to want to head in to that. They don't care about loft condoes and a convenience store.. There are plenty of nice places to eat not at gateway..

Gateway is a sad place.. There are over 50 empty stores.. I've counted them my self.. The theater is one of the worst in the state. It has outdated sound system and screens, inferior 3D, the seats have not been changed since the place opens, they don't even have access to the iMax any more.. Gateway had better come up with a serious redevelopment plan before a new theater is built down town.. Cuz that is probably the main thing bringing buisness in right now.

I think giving guest acsess to trax, temple square, and s nice down town experience is a better bet then giving them acsess to gateway.. If people from out of town really need to go to gateway for a specific reason.. They would probably feel safer walking down south temple or taking trax then second south

The depot and Esa is so much more inviting and safe looking then a trashy apartment building, transient camps, some lofts and a convinence store. 200 south could be nice.. But no one is willing to do anything about the problems on the street.. So it probably never will be.. Just as the west rip grand probably never will be.. I'm not going anywhere near west rio grand with all the druggies and crap back there.

Transients, druggies?! Where were you raised?! Levan, Utah?!

You can choose not to go to that area of town, but don't make that choice for other people.

If you think that area including gateway could use some help, why wouldn't you be in full support of improving this area with the addition of a convention center hotel on a nearby lot, such as RWP? It's not too late to salvage the area, and property owners will be more likely to improve their properties if the city shows them they have their back.

[Makid]

We shouldn't forget that 2nd South will also start to transform with the planned Streetcar line. That will encourage more development which will help the area to clean up fast than no investment.

So a streetcar line as well as the CCH will drastically improve the area and cause further development and improvements along 2nd South. The improvements will also radiate outward both North and South.

One big caveat with South Temple is that the LDS Church has plans for the current parking lot and spaces for expanded BYU Salt Lake and LDS Business College expansion as well as housing for the students.

These plans are more likely to shy a developer of a CCH away from the area than towards it because they would like to have increased patronage of their facilities which would include alcohol which is frowned upon by the LDS Church.

It may be possible that the LDS Church would sell the land around the Plaza to a developer but it is highly doubtful because of the proximity to Temple Square.

1st South is more likely than South Temple for the location but the problem there is the lack of access for construction equipment and most likely if it was the selected location, most of the buildings north of Kilowatt Park would be demolished including the Dinwoody (sp) building.

Again, it may be possible that a developer can make it work without demolishing everything.

But that is the point. We can hash out the pros and cons of numerous spaces within the 1,000 ft radius that the CCH is required to locate but our influence over the developer is minimal at best as their primary concern is with construction and the return on their investment. Sure, some developers care about integrating directly with the community and preservation/renovation of buildings but not all.

That is the part that we must be prepared for. Expect a developer to come in and demolish everything, now, where would you want them to locate and what are the best chances meaning 75% or higher that the land banker would sell.

The above paragraph is what I use to base my thoughts for locations on and for the most part 3 locations come to mind in no particular order:

SE corner 1st South/3rd South (Parking Lot) - allows for direct connection to SP either with the CCH or future expansion.

RWP - allows for direct connection to SP either with the CCH or future expansion.

Shilo - It is close to the SP, we lose another parking lot, lose a billboard and most of all, we would lose the Shilo building.

All 3 of these locations would expand the skyline, some more than others but they also expand the reach of convention goers as well as would spur additional development around them. Shilo would have the least developmental spur of the 3 locations though.

Of course their are other locations that the same can be worked out for but these are my top 3 locations for their reasons stated.

[asies1981]

Knuckleheads will soon be no more.

http://www.theslcblog.org/?p=78

[Orlando]

nice update!

[CofIKid]

Gateway as a whole will not be a POI for out of towners. Particulary the south end where all the locally known poi's are.. It's a trashy area.. Word gets around quick.. There is absolutely nothing they will need over there.. I'm sure some will venture over there.. But it's nothing to build a CCH around... I'm just saying out of downers would be more likely to go down south temple.. 200 south is not only meh.. It's ehh. You forget that 200 south is where a lot of drugged out transients hang out.. People from out of town are not going to want to head in to that. They don't care about loft condoes and a convenience store.. There are plenty of nice places to eat not at gateway..

Gateway is a sad place.. There are over 50 empty stores.. I've counted them my self.. The theater is one of the worst in the state. It has outdated sound system and screens, inferior 3D, the seats have not been changed since the place opens, they don't even have access to the iMax any more.. Gateway had better come up with a serious redevelopment plan before a new theater is built down town.. Cuz that is probably the main thing bringing buisness in right now.

I think giving guest acsess to trax, temple square, and s nice down town experience is a better bet then giving them acsess to gateway.. If people from out of town really need to go to gateway for a specific reason.. They would probably feel safer walking down south temple or taking trax then second south

Well as an employee of a store at the Gateway, we are always busier when conventions are in town. I have also talked to several store managers and their stores at Gateway out perform their other locations regularly.

I can also think of many theaters across the state that are in much worse condition than Gateway. I tend to think that we are blessed with very nice theaters compared to many comparable markets.

Gateway will find it's niches, especially as the area around it develops with more apartments and hotels.

As for the drug and transient problem, the city has stepped up its patrol of the area, and is developing a new precinct dedicated to the area, as well as focusing on helping the homeless population get off the streets.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by asies1981

Knuckleheads will soon be no more.

http://www.theslcblog.org/?p=78

Very cool, those corner block buildings sucked; this is some good density near the ever expanding apartment portfolio on that side of 400 South. It's too bad the apartments couldn't be more interesting and mixed use, but it's still an improvement.