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  #1361  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 4:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
Can the city offer a tax break on its own under the current MGA? I know there was a provision for special legislation to grant tax free status by the province.

The construction of a new arena and how to finance it seems doomed by market failures. Moving the needle with a 30 year property tax break would be reasonable.
I'm not that extensive knowledgeable about those parts of the MGA ... Hard for me to say but if the City could come up with a tax agreement it most certainly would be best for them I think

Would hate to see the City have to fight for it to be taxable every year
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  #1362  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 4:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Full Mountain View Post
Remember that tax dollars paid for the arena to be built in the first place....yes they have paid for maintenance, but imagine getting a house for free and saying you paid your part by putting some paint on the walls once every 5 years.
Ummm, I was speaking about a lease and you're speaking about something totally different, no?
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  #1363  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 4:52 PM
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Originally Posted by *Stardust* View Post
Thats a very narrow lot for an arena thats suppose to be larger than the saddledome. how would that work?
It's not that narrow. The lot north of 10th Ave? That is huge, plus modern stadiums can be more vertical. The only thing you can't fit is a hundred acres of surface parking lots which is a good thing.

There is probably a portion of the structure you could overhang or encapsulate the CPR track if need be. I doubt you would have to though, there may be some interesting design challenges building it future ready for the SELRT that is also slated for that property.

The one thing that must not be allowed to happen is building this anywhere away from transit or anywhere in the middle of no where. There is no redevelopment benefit from a stadium, it really only transfers activity from one area to another (and provides a few tidbits of new sidewalks and something shiny to look at). Building at Max Bell Area (Firestone Park is it called?) would be a disaster and a huge waste of a great stadium.

God forbid they pull a Scotiabank Centre in Ottawa and fire this thing up at CrossIron Mills. That would be one of the worst decisions that the city could ever have happen
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  #1364  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 4:59 PM
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Along the CPR tracks on the "Railtown" Site would be good except IMO they need to put a couple of pedestrian overpasses across the CPR tracks and 9th Ave to connect it to the EV

Those pedestrian overpasses could connect to an outdoor terrace above grade (maybe with a couple of restaurants) as an amenity space for pedestrians

Just some random thoughts
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  #1365  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 5:06 PM
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That would be about the worst possible scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterG View Post

God forbid they pull a Scotiabank Centre in Ottawa and fire this thing up at CrossIron Mills. That would be one of the worst decisions that the city could ever have happen
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  #1366  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 5:12 PM
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The Flames should do themselves a huge favor and just finance this themselves. Who needs moron politicians involved anyway. They would just drag it on forever and inflate the cost. Go it alone, then all the money you make is yours to keep and no can complain about it. Of course its not that simple but it should be.
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  #1367  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 5:20 PM
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Weren't there rumblings of a transit hub being built near the East Village with access to all LRT lines and potential to include a high speed rail link? It would be great to see the arena built over top of this a la Barclays Center in Brooklyn. This would create a fantastic pedestrian experience.
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  #1368  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by The Urbanist View Post
Weren't there rumblings of a transit hub being built near the East Village with access to all LRT lines and potential to include a high speed rail link? It would be great to see the arena built over top of this a la Barclays Center in Brooklyn. This would create a fantastic pedestrian experience.
and Oiler fans can hop the high speed train to come down to see the Oiler games...and vice versa for Flames fans
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  #1369  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 6:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Surrealplaces View Post
and Oiler fans can hop the high speed train to come down to see the Oiler games...and vice versa for Flames fans
That would be awesome but I'm worried that the noise at Oiler's games would scare the crap out of the Calgary fans.
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  #1370  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 7:35 PM
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NorthHill Mall? Firestone site? Greyhound terminal? Westbrook Mall?

Those are the only places I can see as viable outside the Stampede Grounds/Railtown area.
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  #1371  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 7:48 PM
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https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.042088,-1...3m4!1e1!3m2!1sEFIvBT7_MKQLX65GlsRQbA!2e0

This is what you guys are talking about right? Yeah I guess it is pretty big

There would be enough room for an L.A live style entertainment district as well!

It would be perfect if there was a plan with Calgary Transit to build that train station underground

Okay, screw the stampede grounds and west village. I like this alot better!
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  #1372  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 8:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian View Post
That would be awesome but I'm worried that the noise at Oiler's games would scare the crap out of the Calgary fans.
What noise, all the booing from Oiler fans as they go into year 10 of their rebuild?
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  #1373  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 9:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusili View Post
NorthHill Mall? Firestone site? Greyhound terminal? Westbrook Mall?

Those are the only places I can see as viable outside the Stampede Grounds/Railtown area.
I'd be into Northhill Mall, although Hounsfield Heights/Briar Hill residents would shit (understandably)
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  #1374  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Stardust* View Post
https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.042088,-1...3m4!1e1!3m2!1sEFIvBT7_MKQLX65GlsRQbA!2e0

This is what you guys are talking about right? Yeah I guess it is pretty big

There would be enough room for an L.A live style entertainment district as well!

It would be perfect if there was a plan with Calgary Transit to build that train station underground

Okay, screw the stampede grounds and west village. I like this alot better!
It's a ~600m walk to either station (City Hall for NW, S or NE trains; Vic Park for NW or S trains). Google says 7-9 minutes. Which in reality is not much farther than the current setup ~400m.

Throw a SELRT stop in the basement or whatever? You'll have one of the most transit accessible spots in the city.
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  #1375  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
What noise, all the booing from Oiler fans as they go into year 10 of their rebuild?
These things apparently take time. Just wait, you'll eventually see what I mean.
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  #1376  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MasterG View Post
It's a ~600m walk to either station (City Hall for NW, S or NE trains; Vic Park for NW or S trains). Google says 7-9 minutes. Which in reality is not much farther than the current setup ~400m.

Throw a SELRT stop in the basement or whatever? You'll have one of the most transit accessible spots in the city.
oh yes...this needs to happen. This is a better idea than Railtown. I can just imagine it. Who can I tweet or write to suggest this?
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  #1377  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 10:45 PM
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As is, the Flames make about $90M in revenue each year, a number that could almost double if we made a strong playoff run. Flames have very little debt relative to other teams, mainly because we don't have a new stadium. Ken King has said that a new stadium wouldn't have more seats, but would have many more boxes, which should dramatically increase revenue - probably up to 30 or 40% immediately.

Other than the trickle down from corporations potentially spending more money locally and the jobs that will be created, I fail to see how buying a second stadium is a good investment for taxpayers. Some public money, yes, would be worth it if there is a measurable social benefit, but the the real winners are the owners, several of whom have assets in the billions and could easily pay for it themselves instead of asking for a handout. Whether a 50-50 investment is fair, I don't know.
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  #1378  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2014, 5:23 PM
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I tend to agree:
Quote:
Jesse Kline: No public money for Saddledome 2.0


The money earned by team owners — and, indirectly, the players on their payroll — should not be inflated with public funds that could be used to build new schools and other public infrastructure, or to pay off existing public debt.
Derek Leung/Getty ImagesThe money earned by team owners — and, indirectly, the players on their payroll — should not be inflated with public funds that could be used to build new schools and other public infrastructure, or to pay off existing public debt.


Doling out corporate welfare to sports franchises generally is a bad idea: Instead of basing their business decisions on the laws of supply and demand, billionaire owners can leverage civic pride to pressure politicians into making huge public expenditures that offer little or no real economic benefits.

Edmonton Oilers owner Daryl Katz, one of Canada’s richest men, got Alberta taxpayers to help him build a new $606-million arena — which largely will be paid for by money from the city, a provincial infrastructure fund and increased taxes — by threatening to move the storied franchise to another city.

Much like a child who feels his brother got a bigger slice of cake, the Calgary Flames’ president of hockey operations, Brian Burke, now is trying to leverage the Oilers’ sweetheart deal to push for public funding for a new arena for his own team.

“There’s absolutely no reason why we should watch a new building going up in Edmonton and we’ve got to play in a 1988 building here,” Mr. Burke told the Calgary Chamber of Commerce last week. “Lower bowl in a new arena, in the new generation of arenas, is 9,000 seats, minimum. Our [Saddledome] is what, 6,000? So we’re not generating the revenue that an NHL building does.”
Related

Mr. Burke also says he is concerned that the existing stadium’s design prevents musical acts from coming to town. “The weight load that the roof will bear is tiny, so a lot of big stage acts don’t come here,” he said. (Some arena music acts suspend stage components or oversized props from the roofs of such venues.)

His concern for Calgary’s arts and culture scene is touching. And were he pitching the rationale for a new arena to a group of potential investors, it no doubt would get a fair and attentive reception. When there is a need for a new office building or shopping mall in Calgary, or any other Canadian city, investors do market research, raise private capital and then put shovels in the ground. But Mr. Burke is not looking for people who believe a new arena would be profitable and are willing to risk their own money on the venture; he’s looking for taxpayers to foot a large part of the bill.

Hockey players routinely are criticized for making a disproportionate amount of money compared to the rest of us. There is nothing wrong with them making as much money as the market will bear. But the money earned by team owners — and, indirectly, the players on their payroll — should not be inflated with public funds that could be used to build new schools and other public infrastructure, or to pay off existing public debt.

As Derek Fildebrandt of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation noted, “There are things the city can do to facilitate the building of a new NHL arena … they can assist with the regulatory process or cut through the red tape for a land deal. But there’s no room for public money. This is a business owned by billionaires paying millionaires. It’s grossly unfair to ask Calgarians to pick up the tab.”

The Calgary Herald‘s editorialists, on the other hand, argue that arenas “are a valuable source of economic activity, creating considerable employment inside the building for maintenance, food concessions and other retail shops, but also outside the arena, much to the pleasure of restaurateurs, cabbies and other players in the hospitality industry.”

But in fact, just about every independent analysis of subsidies for sports teams and their venues comes to the opposite conclusion.

Sports franchises do not put a whole lot of new money into the local economy; they simply divert money from other businesses

One study in the Journal of Economic Perspectives, for example, found that “there is no correlation between sports facility construction and economic development.” Another study conducted by the Cato Institute found that its results were “no different from those of the previous studies that found no relationship between the professional sports environment and local economies.”

If people don’t go to a hockey game, they generally will spend an equivalent amount of money on dining and other forms of entertainment. Sports franchises do not put a whole lot of new money into the local economy; they simply divert money from other businesses.

That’s not to say that many Canadians wouldn’t prefer to spend their money going to a hockey game. They should have every right to do so. But our sports franchises should be financially supported by the people who freely choose to buy tickets, merchandise and broadcast licenses — not by everyone else.

National Post
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/06/12/jesse-kline-no-public-money-for-saddledome-2-0/
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  #1379  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2014, 6:39 PM
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This is why we won't be getting a new arena or stadium for a loooong time, if ever. When was the last time a sports owner (or ownership group) footed the entire bill themselves? Has it EVER happened? It certainly would be refreshing to see and would cut out a ton of BS and delays but not going to hold my breath on that ever happening.
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  #1380  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2014, 7:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tomthumb2 View Post
This is why we won't be getting a new arena or stadium for a loooong time, if ever. When was the last time a sports owner (or ownership group) footed the entire bill themselves? Has it EVER happened? It certainly would be refreshing to see and would cut out a ton of BS and delays but not going to hold my breath on that ever happening.
Most if not all arenas in major Canadian cities have been built with private money only.
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