New Downtown Calgary Arena

[Wooster]

Easy solution for the Flames - build a new one. Nothing financial stopping them - their owners are billionaires.

The wealthiest of the 6 owners by himself could bankroll the arena on just the increase in his net worth from 2013-14 (~$400m). Edit: actually 2012-13

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/lists-and-rankings/rich-100-the-full-2014-ranking/

[srperrycgy]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Easy solution for the Flames - build a new one. Nothing financial stopping them - their owners are billionaires.

The wealthiest of the 6 owners by himself could bankroll the arena on just the increase in his net worth from 2013-14 (~$400m).

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/lists-and-rankings/rich-100-the-full-2014-ranking/

Thanks for finding this, Wooster and I fully agree. There are many City projects that are a higher priority for public funding than an arena.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Easy solution for the Flames - build a new one. Nothing financial stopping them - their owners are billionaires.

The wealthiest of the 6 owners by himself could bankroll the arena on just the increase in his net worth from 2013-14 (~$400m). Edit: actually 2012-13

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/lists-and-rankings/rich-100-the-full-2014-ranking/

I know the whole 1% thing has gotten kind of tired, but MAN! The audacity it takes to beg for money from the masses to bankroll your own pet project while you could basically buy the damn thing yourself without blinking seems so sleazy. Then again, I guess there's a reason why Scrooge was rich.

[Ramsayfarian]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I know the whole 1% thing has gotten kind of tired, but MAN! The audacity it takes to beg for money from the masses to bankroll your own pet project while you could basically buy the damn thing yourself without blinking seems so sleazy. Then again, I guess there's a reason why Scrooge was rich.

Scrooge became rich because he was frugal and paid his employees squat. It wasn't because he fleeced the taxpayers.

[*Stardust*]

Originally Posted by MasterG

Put it in the lot a block north of there along the CPR tracks. I think it's owned for a future train station / HSR but the province will never be progressive enough to consider that seriously so might as well give a portion up to a new stadium.

Thats a very narrow lot for an arena thats suppose to be larger than the saddledome. how would that work?

[tdurden5573]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

What is not a reality though is any claims that this arena will "revitalize" our downtown. That is happening already, without the need for a tax payer subsidy to the Flames of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Stadiums like Staples Center in LA are models for how to revitalize an area with an arena. For those who havent been, they built an attached entertainment district to staples center downtown. It use to be a rundown sketchy area, now its a huge tourist draw. When I was working in LA we would have all our company parties down in the area next to the stadium and hit up a kings or clippers game after.

If done right, a stadium can be a huge draw for economic activity in the area. Currently people hit up bars in the burbs and take buses down to the stadium.

Rogers Center in Toronto and GM Place (I know its been renamed) in Vancouver are two excellent examples in Canada of successfully integrated downtown arenas.

If Calgary is serious about having an NHL team, we need a new stadium / entertainment district.

[freeweed]

While you're right about LA, Calgary doesn't have any part of the city that "needs revitalizing" in the same way. That argument doesn't really stand up here.

What people do need to understand, however, is that sports and other arena events are an integral part of our cultural fabric. The Hitmen and Roughnecks aren't exactly multi-millionaires, and live music isn't always run by billionaires. The problem is that people see Jarome Iginla making $7m a year and think "why should I pay to subsidize millionaires???" They don't realize that public money goes to "subsidize" wealthy patrons of the arts all the time. People seriously believe that everyone involved in our music centre is a staving artist. That things like ballet, opera, art galleries and symphonies have no real money connected to them. Etc.

But this is the unfortunate reality of the modern NHL arena situation. With the Flames so closely identified with the Saddledome, that's all people see. Absolutely nothing has changed since 1988 in terms of use of the building - if anything it has several more amateur events every month - and back then people had no problem with public funding. Now that it's "the rich Calgary Flames' home" somehow things seem different.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by MasterG

With the right design we may be able to replace a few parking lots with a shiny new stadium in Vic Park. Perhaps even get pedestrian infrastructure, bigger sidewalks and tree-lined streets.

Not bad for $500 million.

I think half a billion dollars is a ridiculous price for a couple of blocks of sidewalks (I know, hyperbole, but that is essentially what you are describing to me). Besides, what are the parking lots in Victoria Park that don't have current proposals by private developers on them? Will they still be sitting as parking lots in 5-10 years, or at the current pace of our development, will we get shiny new developments (not an arena) plus the sidewalks you mentioned without any subsidy?

Originally Posted by tdurden5573

Stadiums like Staples Center in LA are models for how to revitalize an area with an arena. For those who havent been, they built an attached entertainment district to staples center downtown. It use to be a rundown sketchy area, now its a huge tourist draw. When I was working in LA we would have all our company parties down in the area next to the stadium and hit up a kings or clippers game after.

If done right, a stadium can be a huge draw for economic activity in the area. Currently people hit up bars in the burbs and take buses down to the stadium.

Rogers Center in Toronto and GM Place (I know its been renamed) in Vancouver are two excellent examples in Canada of successfully integrated downtown arenas.

If Calgary is serious about having an NHL team, we need a new stadium / entertainment district.

Seems to me like the easiest way to achieve this is turn the current Stampede Trail into an entertainment district. That is the easy part to build. If we create a new arena, we also need to create the entertainment district. We are more than halfway there already, let's just put a few restaurants and bars at the north end of the Stampede grounds.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by freeweed

While you're right about LA, Calgary doesn't have any part of the city that "needs revitalizing" in the same way. That argument doesn't really stand up here.

What people do need to understand, however, is that sports and other arena events are an integral part of our cultural fabric. The Hitmen and Roughnecks aren't exactly multi-millionaires, and live music isn't always run by billionaires. The problem is that people see Jarome Iginla making $7m a year and think "why should I pay to subsidize millionaires???" They don't realize that public money goes to "subsidize" wealthy patrons of the arts all the time. People seriously believe that everyone involved in our music centre is a staving artist. That things like ballet, opera, art galleries and symphonies have no real money connected to them. Etc.

But this is the unfortunate reality of the modern NHL arena situation. With the Flames so closely identified with the Saddledome, that's all people see. Absolutely nothing has changed since 1988 in terms of use of the building - if anything it has several more amateur events every month - and back then people had no problem with public funding. Now that it's "the rich Calgary Flames' home" somehow things seem different.

No one said Jarome Iginla should pay for the new arena. They said the Billionaire owners who aim to reap the most benefit from it should.

[fusili]

Yup, we definitely need revitalization of our downtown. It's not like Calgary has the second highest downtown class A office rates in North America, the second most concentrated CBD in terms of percentage of office space, or an absolutely booming residential sector in places like the Beltline. Oh, wait, maybe we do.....

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

No one said Jarome Iginla should pay for the new arena. They said the Billionaire owners who aim to reap the most benefit from it should.

Actually that is precisely what people are talking about. In the years before players made millions, the public was all in favour of subsidizing arenas. It was only after people realized the money that players made that this "I don't want a dime of my money sponsoring millionaires!!!" came about.

If it's solely the owners we're talking about - you don't think the people who run ballet companies, or art galleries, or concert halls are all poor, do you? Billions of public dollars go to pay for facilities where the prime beneficiary is already filthy rich. The only difference is that the performers at these places tend not to be.

Alternatively - would you be OK paying for a new Saddledome if the Flames got sold to me, even if the rest of the finances worked out exactly the same?

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by fusili

Yup, we definitely need revitalization of our downtown. It's not like Calgary has the second highest downtown class A office rates in North America, the second most concentrated CBD in terms of percentage of office space, or an absolutely booming residential sector in places like the Beltline. Oh, wait, maybe we do.....

Be very, very careful with your sarcasm. Thinking like this is precisely why so many arenas ended up in the suburbs at one time. "Downtown doesn't need em! I know, we'll build it in the middle of nowhere and surround it with surface parking!".

You're absolutely correct though, don't get me wrong.

[RWin]

Originally Posted by freeweed

would you be OK paying for a new Saddledome if the Flames got sold to me, even if the rest of the finances worked out exactly the same?

No.

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Actually that is precisely what people are talking about. In the years before players made millions, the public was all in favour of subsidizing arenas. It was only after people realized the money that players made that this "I don't want a dime of my money sponsoring millionaires!!!" came about.

If it's solely the owners we're talking about - you don't think the people who run ballet companies, or art galleries, or concert halls are all poor, do you? Billions of public dollars go to pay for facilities where the prime beneficiary is already filthy rich. The only difference is that the performers at these places tend not to be.

Alternatively - would you be OK paying for a new Saddledome if the Flames got sold to me, even if the rest of the finances worked out exactly the same?

Either way it's going to cost the public in one form or another - either they pay the cost now for a new facility and have to eat it up and work with the Flames .. OR they have to pay the already rich owners to host said events in a private facility on a case by case basis over the long term

What's more cost effective for the public?

An underlying issue would be the taxable status of the new facility - if it's built completely privately the City could generate some good property tax revenues off of it to help subsidize these events .. Whereas a facility built by the municipality (or funded by) may not pull in the same type of revenue

I'm not quite sure how tax agreements would work between the two parties, so if someone has some more insight to this by all means correct me .. I just see little benefit to the City eating up a large cost of a new facility personally

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by freeweed

While you're right about LA, Calgary doesn't have any part of the city that "needs revitalizing" in the same way. That argument doesn't really stand up here.

What people do need to understand, however, is that sports and other arena events are an integral part of our cultural fabric. The Hitmen and Roughnecks aren't exactly multi-millionaires, and live music isn't always run by billionaires. The problem is that people see Jarome Iginla making $7m a year and think "why should I pay to subsidize millionaires???" They don't realize that public money goes to "subsidize" wealthy patrons of the arts all the time. People seriously believe that everyone involved in our music centre is a staving artist. That things like ballet, opera, art galleries and symphonies have no real money connected to them. Etc.

But this is the unfortunate reality of the modern NHL arena situation. With the Flames so closely identified with the Saddledome, that's all people see. Absolutely nothing has changed since 1988 in terms of use of the building - if anything it has several more amateur events every month - and back then people had no problem with public funding. Now that it's "the rich Calgary Flames' home" somehow things seem different.

Last I checked not many of the people involved in the arts (employees or artists) were paid extravagantly. If the owners of the Flames can afford to pay their employees millions they can pay for their own arena. They have had a virtual free ride for the last 30 years (free building, all the profits into their pockets) they can do right by the community that has supported them for those years and pay their own way.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Be very, very careful with your sarcasm. Thinking like this is precisely why so many arenas ended up in the suburbs at one time. "Downtown doesn't need em! I know, we'll build it in the middle of nowhere and surround it with surface parking!".

You're absolutely correct though, don't get me wrong.

Fair. That would be the last thing I want.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

Last I checked not many of the people involved in the arts (employees or artists) were paid extravagantly. If the owners of the Flames can afford to pay their employees millions they can pay for their own arena. They have had a virtual free ride for the last 30 years (free building, all the profits into their pockets) they can do right by the community that has supported them for those years and pay their own way.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Calgary Flames organization pay lease costs to the Saddledome Foundation?

As far as doing right by the community, you should delve a bit deeper on that one because the Flames organization does give back to numerous non-profit organizations (both sports and non-sports related) - not huge dollars comparable to what the Flames owners are worth but still monies that these non-profit groups truly appreciate and would find difficult to replace if it wasn't for the Flames organization.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by H.E.Pennypacker

Either way it's going to cost the public in one form or another - either they pay the cost now for a new facility and have to eat it up and work with the Flames .. OR they have to pay the already rich owners to host said events in a private facility on a case by case basis over the long term

What's more cost effective for the public?

An underlying issue would be the taxable status of the new facility - if it's built completely privately the City could generate some good property tax revenues off of it to help subsidize these events .. Whereas a facility built by the municipality (or funded by) may not pull in the same type of revenue

I'm not quite sure how tax agreements would work between the two parties, so if someone has some more insight to this by all means correct me .. I just see little benefit to the City eating up a large cost of a new facility personally

Can the city offer a tax break on its own under the current MGA? I know there was a provision for special legislation to grant tax free status by the province.

The construction of a new arena and how to finance it seems doomed by market failures. Moving the needle with a 30 year property tax break would be reasonable.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by speedog

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Calgary Flames organization pay lease costs to the Saddledome Foundation?

As far as doing right by the community, you should delve a bit deeper on that one because the Flames organization does give back to numerous non-profit organizations (both sports and non-sports related) - not huge dollars comparable to what the Flames owners are worth but still monies that these non-profit groups truly appreciate and would find difficult to replace if it wasn't for the Flames organization.

While the Saddledome Foundation receives lease revenue from Calgary Flames, it is very small amount that less than 2 million per annum. Additionally the Calgary Flames pick up all costs associated maintenance and operations of the arena. Also, because of the special nature of the Saddledome Foundation, they do not pay property taxes or any other fees in lieu of property taxes. Even the airport has a payment in lieu of property tax.

As for giving back to the community. A lot of the charity work is done by the Saddledome Foundation, a major portion of the facility naming rights fees are funnelled into charities.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by speedog

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Calgary Flames organization pay lease costs to the Saddledome Foundation?

As far as doing right by the community, you should delve a bit deeper on that one because the Flames organization does give back to numerous non-profit organizations (both sports and non-sports related) - not huge dollars comparable to what the Flames owners are worth but still monies that these non-profit groups truly appreciate and would find difficult to replace if it wasn't for the Flames organization.

Remember that tax dollars paid for the arena to be built in the first place....yes they have paid for maintenance, but imagine getting a house for free and saying you paid your part by putting some paint on the walls once every 5 years.

Originally Posted by Cage

While the Saddledome Foundation receives lease revenue from Calgary Flames, it is very small amount that less than 2 million per annum. Additionally the Calgary Flames pick up all costs associated maintenance and operations of the arena. Also, because of the special nature of the Saddledome Foundation, they do not pay property taxes or any other fees in lieu of property taxes. Even the airport has a payment in lieu of property tax.

As for giving back to the community. A lot of the charity work is done by the Saddledome Foundation, a major portion of the facility naming rights fees are funnelled into charities.

Still seems like they get a good deal.