Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[st7860]

Originally Posted by deasine

This is excellent. The Evergreen Line thing never made much sense to me, especially since it would require rebranding so many existing stations. It also explains why TransLink has updated some of the signage of the Millennium Line stations to the new wayfinding style (as in, it wouldn't have made sense to update the Millennium Line signage *now* given it would have needed a rebrand very shortly).

The Production Way extension is excellent as it reduces an exchange for commuters up to Burnaby Mountain (i.e. keeps existing status-quo).

The picture of those maps seem to be for the overhead maps found inside SkyTrain vehicles (hence different sizes).

I always thought it was a bit strange they originally intended to the have the mill. line terminate at lougheed instead of production way. now someone finally clued in on the mess that would be.

[adrianroam95]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I just drove there yesterday and the guideway segments were not at the site at all prior to the column directly beside Cottonwood. The gantry crane was in place but was empty. So all the segments have arrived and are now been lifted up as of today?

Whoops, I might be mistaken. Perhaps I was thinking of the segment prior to the one I mentioned. I'll get a clearer look tomorrow.

[dpogue]

Saw a photo of the grantry crane when I was scrolling through Twitter earlier: https://twitter.com/AhChu/status/471470388254232576

Originally Posted by adrianroam95

I also learnt you can see the guideway construction in the Burquitlam area from Skytrain right near the Production Way University station. Pretty interesting.

I took a picture of the crane visible from Production Way station on my way home today. Apologies for the terrible quality of a zoomed in phone through a dirty window on a moving train

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

The blurry and totally unofficial photo is still a draft, so it most certainly ain't final. If one were to interprete it as absolute, then Canada Line does not exist since its not on that map.

Those look very much to me like the route maps that are placed above the doors on the Bombardier Skytrain cars. The ones on the 300-series cars have illuminated lights to show where the train is and which stops it's going to. So you shouldn't expect to see the Canada Line on them, since those trains will never, ever run there.

[Olden Retreiver]

Wonderful news, if true, about the trains from Waterfront running through to Production Way, and also about branding the stations from VCC-Clark to Lafarge Lake as "M-Line"

"Evergreen Line" was always a terrible choice because it could never be shortened to E-Line without being confused with the Expo Line. When names were chosen, anything starting with the letters C, E, or M (if the new line was to be separated from existing Millenium Line ) should have been disqualified.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by officedweller

That's not too bad, really. Think of the turnback for the Train2Main at the pocket track between Broadway-Commercial and Nanaimo.

The low-ish frequency on the M-Line probably allows a short-turn on the mainline without impeding other trains.

Now the assignment of a common "Vancouver Platform" at Lougheed Station makes sense - if there will be "through running" trains from Braid.

Having a pocket track would definitely work better but as you said, the lower frequencies on the M-Line would allow for this to happen without severely impacting M-Line operations. But as per the Columbia case, this is an overall added complication and puts a limit in improving frequencies.

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I agree with this. The blurry and totally unofficial photo is still a draft, so it most certainly ain't final. If one were to interprete it as absolute, then Canada Line does not exist since its not on that map. I don't see why they have to get rid of the Evergreen Line name, given it is so ingrained to people's hearts and minds. Plus what about the winner of the mountain bike?

The Canada Line wouldn't be on the map because the overhead SkyTrain maps don't really show the Canada Line anyway (the current ones do indicate the line, but doesn't give details). Plus, the out-of-focus picture does show the Canada Line as a connection at Waterfront.

--

All in all, nothing is confirmed and this is all speculation and TransLink couldn't seem confirm either. But this indicates that it is being considered. Afterall, the whole Evergreen Line name and brand came about because it was going to be a LRT line. When an upgrade to SkyTrain was announced, it continued to use the Evergreen Line brand for convenience. But really, this is an extension of a line, not a new line in itself.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by deasine

All in all, nothing is confirmed and this is all speculation and TransLink couldn't seem confirm either. But this indicates that it is being considered. Afterall, the whole Evergreen Line name and brand came about because it was going to be a LRT line. When an upgrade to SkyTrain was announced, it continued to use the Evergreen Line brand for convenience. But really, this is an extension of a line, not a new line in itself.

The "Evergreen Line" is not just a brand for the LRT. The name was chosen from a contest due to something significant found in the community that it will directly serve, namely the abundant presence of Evergreen trees (which is also abundant at the existing Millenium Line route). Its no coincidence that the Coquitlam Cultural Centre is also called Evergreen, and even that new Bosa condo was called Evergreen (though clearly to market it due to the Skytrain, but the name still fits).

To simply dismiss it and remove it would be a bit insulting to the people that do cherish the name. After all, Evergreen Line has its own logo, its documented in all Federal, Provincial and Local government correspondence, it is the namesake of the contractor building it (EGRT), and has been ingrained into the public for over a decade.

There is nothing "Millenium" about its extension, and "Evergreen" is a far better, less generic name. Even the predecessor of the Skytrain extension was never called Millenium Line (it was called PMC Line), and Millenium Line was originally Broadway Line (origin of the brand, "B-Line"), and was named as such because the original rapid transit plan was LRT from Coquitlam to the Broadway corridor all in one go. But a certain individual changed things...

[Millennium2002]

Is it really that prudent for TransLink to finance the re-branding of 12 mainline stations vs 2 or 3 branch stations given the fact that it also has to redo all the wayfinding at the same time that the "Evergreen Line" is opened?

I'm pretty sure the media would have a field day on "irresponsible TransLink spending" once they find this out...

Also, based on age, the word Millennium predates Evergreen by about 10 years... I'd think that the name recognition of Millennium Line would be more widespread and thorough amongst transit users than Evergreen based on that factor alone...

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Is it really that prudent for TransLink to finance the re-branding of 12 mainline stations vs 2 or 3 branch stations given the fact that it also has to redo all the wayfinding at the same time that the "Evergreen Line" is opened?

I'm pretty sure the media would have a field day on "irresponsible TransLink spending" once they find this out...

Also, based on age, the word Millennium predates Evergreen by about 10 years... I'd think that the name recognition of Millennium Line would be more widespread and thorough amongst transit users than Evergreen based on that factor alone...

Considering that Translink is already spending hundreds of millions of dollars making the existing Expo Line stations "pretty", rebranding 12 mainline stations shouldn't be a big deal. There is absolutely no reason to put glass in Main Street/Science World station for longer platforms, and yet there you have it. I'm sure that is more expensive than repainting and changing signs.

The Expo Line, associated to going to King George, predates Millenium Line, so how come that has to change now by adding a leg to Production, which has always been associated with the Millenium Line?

The media is only having a field day with Translink as of late, even in issues that has nothing to do with Translink, because of Jordan Bateman. I'm sure Jordan will continue to find ways to bash Translink regardless of whether the stations are rebranded or not.

[nname]

They should look at YVR, where they renumber the gates every 2 years or so

I don't know why a line built as Evergreen Line has to be run as Evergreen Line.. There are many places where the line operations is different than how they were constructed.

Just to give some example:

- Calgary's Northwest Line and South Line together forms the 201 (red) route; Norheast Line and West Line forms the 202 (blue) route. You still hear "Northwest Line Extension", it really means an extension to the 201.

- Toronto merge Yonge Line, University Line, and Spadina Line in to a single route; Bloor Line and Danforth Line into another.

- Seattle have Central Link, Airport Link, University Link, Northgate Link, Lynnwood Link, South Link, Tacoma Link, ... so many different names but its just a single route.

- Each of the line in New York Subway has their own name, but they rarely run independently on their own. For example, the multi-billion Second Avenue Subway project won't gets its own line for a long while - they just going to redirect the north section of the the Q train (BMT Broadway Line). They spent 4.5 billions on it but not going to keep the name as an independent line.

- Each of the route in Chicago L is made up of many different lines. For instance, Red Line is made up of a combination of North Side Main Line, State Street Subway, and Dan Ryan Line; Blue Line consist of O'Hare Line, Milwaukee-Dearborn Subway, and Congress Line.

Perhaps it would be less confusing if we call it the "Yellow Line" or the "M-train" or the "BME-line", but it would be standard to have the "Millennium Train/Line" that through run the Broadway Subway, Millennium Line, and Evergreen Line..

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I'm sure that is more expensive than repainting and changing signs.

It's not just signage.

A re-branding would require changes to all media:

• platform signage
• in-vehicle signage
• wayfinding signage
• station announcements
• platform tickers
• maps (system-wide, incl. seabus. Are there maps at bus stops?)
• all print media (bus schedules, maps, etc.)
• all internet media
• mobile apps

By comparison, TransLink saved costs by not repainting the livery of all the MKI trains to match the white, yellow and blue design (itself now out of date) until the trains were to be repainted in the ordinary course of maintenance.

BTW, here's the pic from the Annual Report.
The fact that there are several of them overlapping may suggest that they represent various options.
Note, however, that the enlarged circles at Production and Lougheed represent the designation for a "transfer station".
The Production "transfer station" would save Coquitlam bound passengers from Braid the hassle of an up and down transfer at Lougheed (as well as the obvious convenience to SFU students)


http://www.translink.ca/~/media/Document...w/annual_reports/annual_report_2013.ashx

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by nname

I don't know why a line built as Evergreen Line has to be run as Evergreen Line.. There are many places where the line operations is different than how they were constructed.

Just to give some example: ...

Not to mention our own "RAV Line" (Richmond/Airport/Vancouver).

[deasine]

Originally Posted by nname

They should look at YVR, where they renumber the gates every 2 years or so

Love it! But on a more serious note, renumbering airport gates is much different than rebranding and renaming lines. The average person probably doesn't use the airport (and would thus not remember the location of the gates anyway) as often as one would be using public transit.

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Not to mention our own "RAV Line" (Richmond/Airport/Vancouver).

Actually many of the initial construction line names never ended up being used in the system. PMT became Millennium (for good reason) similar to how RAV became Canada. Heck the original acronyms/names for the Expo Line were never used either.

I would argue that the Millennium Line branding has a stronger regional brand. The average transit user is more familiar with the Millennium Line brand as it is currently being used. People may be aware of the Evergreen Line name, or the existence of a SkyTrain expansion into Coquitlam, but the Millennium Line would still have a higher familiarity and this seems to be the fact.

The original Evergreen Line name was developed after a contest for the proposed LRT line. Thus, there is reason to believe that Evergreen Line name was chosen as a result of having a separate LRT line and this seems to be a fact that remains. Of course the Evergreen Line has local significance and I don't argue it does not, but at the end of the day, I do believe the Millennium Line branding has a higher public awareness and familiarity. It is not intended to "insult" those who favour the name, I'm just discussing the unbiased facts.

I personally don't care what colour or name they use. They can colour everything blue and call it SkyTrain and remove the lines all together if they wanted to (Melbourne Metro does this). I care more importantly what type new and changed services are there are a result and the consistent communication regarding the upcoming changes. There are many options:

• They could have the entire VCC-Clark to Lafarge Lake service branded as the Evergreen Line.
• They could have the entire VCC-Clark to Lafarge Lake service branded as the Millennium Line.
• They could even have the entire VCC-Clark to Lafarge Laker service branded as two separate lines: West of Lougheed as the existing Millennium Line and East of Lougheed as the Evergreen Line. Trains can operated continued services operationally, but branding wise be communicated differently (i.e. announced as "Millennium Line to Lougheed Town Centre, continuing as Evergreen Line to Lafarge Lake-Douglas College"). This is used in some scheduled train services in Tokyo and in the Taipei MRT system pictured below.

I think what it is clear as per the picture is that TransLink has considered using one brand (in this case, keeping the existing Millennium Line brand) and also to continue the "Sapperton/Braid" spur to Production Way-University. The latter point I think is most significant as it not only reduces 1 extra connection, but also reduces the transfer traffic that could occur at Lougheed, and I don't think the existing layout of the station can handle the potential transfer traffic over time.

[officedweller]

Also, I wonder what the frequency of the Production route will be?
The frequency will no longer be tied to ridership on the M-Line mainline - so it can be reduced significantly.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by officedweller

It's not just signage.

A re-branding would require changes to all media:

• platform signage
• in-vehicle signage
• wayfinding signage
• station announcements
• platform tickers
• maps (system-wide, incl. seabus. Are there maps at bus stops?)
• all print media (bus schedules, maps, etc.)
• all internet media
• mobile apps

This all needs to be done anyway. For example, all print, internet and mobile app media will need to remove the 97 B-Line that is currently present to reflect the Skytrain extension. The signs inside the Skytrain cars will also need to be replaced.

This always happen when a new rapid transit is introduced...even the Canada Line, which doesn't physically connect with the rest of the Skytrain, require that all signs, print media, etc had to change to reflect it.

And guess what? When the Broadway Line is built, it has to be done again! Its just the cost of doing business, and a significantly small price to pay to properly reflect a rapid transit extension. So to sound the costs alarm just because of rebranding...sheesh!

As far as RAV is concerned, RAV was never meant to be the final name. Canada Line was later decided as the official name, in part because of the Federal contribution which was *so hard* to get at that time.

Evergreen Line, on the other hand, was voted by the legitimate Board at that time to give it an official name. Otherwise we would all still be calling it PMC Line (and the LRT was called "Coquitlam Line"). The thing with the Evergreen Line is unlike the RAV and Millenium Line, politicians were already jumping the gun to somehow force its existence back then (which resulted in the birth of the 97 B-Line with bendy buses, which really was the ordinary 147 route with normal buses).

And unlike the Canada Line or Millenium Line, Evergreen Line had to go through so many election cycles of all levels of government and a bajillion power point presentations and technological changes to make it happen. So the name Evergreen Line does have a bit of significance on the saga of this "extension".

[officedweller]

Well maybe the Evergreen Line will just be coded yellow?

[adrianroam95]

I've taken a few photos of the progress of construction in the Burquitlam area; all images were captured today (May 29th, 2014). You can click each photo to view it at full resolution.

North Road and Foster Ave. looking south:


North Road and Foster Ave. looking north:


North Road and Cottonwood Ave:







Burquitlam Station:






Uneven height of column-top pads (just north of Burquitlam Station):


Clarke Road and Como Lake Ave:


Guideway erected thus far as of May 29th 2014:

[hollywoodnorth]

thanks for the great pics

the rest of the guideway down North Road should fly up as its straight and no station as well.

[officedweller]

Nice shots, thanks!

Originally Posted by adrianroam95

Uneven height of column-top pads (just north of Burquitlam Station):

Looks like the middle and right columns are reversed in location.
You can also see that the height of the pads on the left column varies because the guideway banks on the curve.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

This all needs to be done anyway. For example, all print, internet and mobile app media will need to remove the 97 B-Line that is currently present to reflect the Skytrain extension. The signs inside the Skytrain cars will also need to be replaced.

This always happen when a new rapid transit is introduced...even the Canada Line, which doesn't physically connect with the rest of the Skytrain, require that all signs, print media, etc had to change to reflect it.

And guess what? When the Broadway Line is built, it has to be done again! Its just the cost of doing business, and a significantly small price to pay to properly reflect a rapid transit extension. So to sound the costs alarm just because of rebranding...sheesh!

As far as RAV is concerned, RAV was never meant to be the final name. Canada Line was later decided as the official name, in part because of the Federal contribution which was *so hard* to get at that time.

Evergreen Line, on the other hand, was voted by the legitimate Board at that time to give it an official name. Otherwise we would all still be calling it PMC Line (and the LRT was called "Coquitlam Line"). The thing with the Evergreen Line is unlike the RAV and Millenium Line, politicians were already jumping the gun to somehow force its existence back then (which resulted in the birth of the 97 B-Line with bendy buses, which really was the ordinary 147 route with normal buses).

And unlike the Canada Line or Millenium Line, Evergreen Line had to go through so many election cycles of all levels of government and a bajillion power point presentations and technological changes to make it happen. So the name Evergreen Line does have a bit of significance on the saga of this "extension".

How about:

"Millennium Line" when referring to the entire line from VCC to Douglas College.

"Evergreen Extension of the Millennium Line" or "Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension" when referring to just this new construction east of Lougheed.

"Broadway Extension of the Millennium Line" or "UBC Extension of the Millennium Line" when referring to the extension west of VCC (and therefore "Millennium Line" would referring to the entire line from UBC to Douglas College)


or better:
"the Brain Train" because of all the education sites it goes past.