Mountain West Microbrew: Chit chat and irrelevancy

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Scottk

Fair enough, however I would suggest you look into the case of Ron Williamson, of Ada Oklahoma. Ron Williamson was wrongly convicted of murder in 1988, and was sentenced to death. He spent 11 years in prison, and came within weeks of receiving the death penalty before he was exonerated of all charges. During the time he spent in prison, his mental health rapidly deteriorated, and once he was released from prison, he was mentally unstable. Ron was never able to live a normal life. This occurred because of the brutal prison conditions that he lived in, and a lack of rehabilitation (I would like to point out that your bizarre stance actually seems to support brutal prison conditions and a lack of rehab).

The fact of the matter is that cops and witnesses lie. I have to find the study, but I read recently that cops are actually 2X more likely to lie under oath than civilians. Put simply, the US "justice" system often does not achieve true justice.

As has already been pointed out, a large proportion of the people in US prisons are there because of non violent crimes. Yet you are advocating in favor of worse conditions for prisoners? And you don't support rehabilitation for prisoners, despite the fact that there is significant evidence indicating rehabilitation to be far more effective at reducing recidivism rates? What exactly do you think is going to happen if you put a mentally ill person with violent tendencies in a cage surrounded by thousands of other mentally ill people with violent tendencies in cages? Am I living in Nazi Germany or something??? Your view on this issue is exactly why so many people in America are incarcerated... the root of the problem is never addressed.

It has already been pointed out that America has a larger prison population than the next 3 biggest countries combined. Yet we consider ourselves the home of the free. Wake up people - we are living in a police state. I would also suggest reading into the for profit prison system that is being created across America. Really spooky stuff that our prison system is being run by corporations with incentive to keep as many people in jail as possible.

To put it simply, if you believe our current methods of incarceration are so effective (and actually support worsening prison conditions and reduced rehabilitation), then why do we have such a massive population of the incarcerated??

A few points... I agree that there are probably a lot of people in prison who shouldn't be there... For example I would not put somebody in prison for drug use. As long as drug use is the only crime.. The fact that somebody should or shouldn't be in prison has nothing to do with the prison system itself.. That has to do with the laws that put them there in the first place and that is an entirely different debate.. With that said.. I don't think that violence should necessarily be the standard upon which we incarcerate people.. Identity theft for example is a serious and growing crime and the people who commit such crimes should be incarcerated.. Should they be mixed in with a violent criminals or treated like violent criminals? Absolutely not. Should they be given classes to rehabilitate their ethics standards? Absolutely.. But they are still there to be punished.. And taxpayers should not be paying for them to have cable TV and Internet.

This is what you need this understand.. I am not opposed to rehabilitating people.. I am opposed to substituting punishment for rehabilitation... I am opposed to a system based on the rehabilitation.. I want people to serve out a punishment for their crime.. And then be given the opportunity to receive rehabilitation.. I do not want different types of criminals mixed together because that makes the problem worse...

I have mixed feelings on rehabilitating people who have been sentenced to death.. On one hand it's kind of a waste of money.. But on the other hand I think if a person can be taught to empathize and understand the nature of their own crime.. Putting them to death for that crime would have much more meaning.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by tygr

With the "death penalty" and "Black" line debates, this subforum has been disappointing to try to sift through to see if there's anything interesting to read about.

Can we please get back on topic, or move it to the Chit Chat/Irrelevancy subforum?

No.

And I'll tell you why:

There is no need to wade through off-topic discussion if you're solely looking for development news. Wanna know why? Because if there was anything remotely interesting to talk about, we'd be doing that instead of debating crime and punishment.

Take this as proof nothing of note has been released in the last 24 to 48 hours.

[Scottk]

thank you both for explaining your opinions on this matter.

I agree, and you have changed my perspective somewhat on these issues.

My apologies for sounding stand offish

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Scottk

No, no. You missed my point. What I was saying was a fact. People from states outside of Utah view the place as.... how do I say this... a bit "off". The point I was trying to make is that radical stances like Oijous (or whatever his name is) are exactly the reason why people still feel this way about Utah.

I am not saying this to be offensive. I believe this to be fact. Ask 100 people from across the U.S. their opinions on Utah, and I think a very large portion would be negative. I know this sounds like a dick thing to say but I really don't mean it that way. How recently did you guys begin to allow anyone into a bar? 10 years? Can you even buy alcohol on Sundays in Utah yet? Like it or not, these types of things give Utah a bad image. My point was that Oijous post furthered the negative images associated with Utah.

Also, I would much rather be stereotyped as being from a state that allows responsible adults the freedom to make their own decisions. Especially considering marijuana is safer than alcohol. I view Colorado as a state that supports freedom. We took a stance on ending the failed drug war. I believe that this is not a negative stereotype associated with Colorado, and the rest of the nation (except for Utah, of course) views Colorado as sensible for doing so.

Suggesting that dangerous people who murder other people and rape children be put to death is not radical... It's historically very common... And me not wanting my tax dollars to go to prisoners to watch cable TV and have Internet is also not radical... I've known plenty of people who have been victims of identity theft and fraud... And then the same people who have been the victims are expected to pay for criminals to have luxuries?? What is your problem?

I think that there are a lot of people in prison who shouldn't even be there but that's not what we're talking about... I am talking about bad people...

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Comrade

No.

And I'll tell you why:

There is no need to wade through off-topic discussion if you're solely looking for development news. Wanna know why? Because if there was anything remotely interesting to talk about, we'd be doing that instead of debating crime and punishment.

Take this as proof nothing of note has been released in the last 24 to 48 hours.

On that we completely agree... If someone has something more interesting to talk about... go for it... If it something is truly interesting everyone will jump on the topic... This is not a news site.. it's a discussion forum.. And discussions evolve into other discussions.. that's just the way people think... :-)

[DMTower]

Ajiuo I don't think prison is as cushy as you believe it is. I know someone who is in prison right now in southern Utah and receive letters from them. I can tell you for sure they do not have internet access. Any television they have is basic, and that is more for the benefit of the guards not having to deal with restless inmates than it is for pampering the inmates. The inmates in the prison he's at all have chores (he works in the kitchens). He also had to take classes related to his offense for about a year. I'm not saying that enough is being done, but it's definitely not the resort hotel you make it out to be.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by UTPlanner

CofIKid, those apartments are being built by Wasatch Development but they will not be owned and operated by them. They will be owned and operated by the same company that built Seasons at City Creek and is preparing to build Seasons on Denver Street. Wasatch is going to build and own the Encore Apartments on 400 South where Neff Floral is located.

It was actually changed to "Seasons on Sidecreek"... Apparently the LDS church filed a lawsuit against them which required them to change the name... Which I personally think is complete BS... It wasn't called "Seasons At City Creek center".

They probably have more of a right to use the name city creek than CCC does.. Considering the fact that the city Creek aqueduct runs right in front of the building... The motel that used to be in the same place was called the city Creek inn.. I wonder if they would've gotten sued??

I love what the LDS church has done with CCC.. But that lawsuit is over-the-top and ridiculous.. CCC was named after city creek just as the Seasons At City Creek was... Just as the city Creek Inn was.. The LDS church should not hold any sway over the name City Creek... Unless of course somebody were to use the name "City Creek center".. Then they would be perfectly within their right to sue :-/

[blm3034L!fe]

Originally Posted by delts145

^^^
^^^

Guys Please, why are we not giving our own forum member the benefit of a doubt, especially when it's AjiuO, who has contributed a great deal to the participation on this forum. He was personally assaulted, and if I remember correctly brutally so. He has some strong residual feelings on the matter, which is perfectly understandable. As much as he posts, you should all have a much better feel for his overall view than what you would seem to indicate by your responses to a local, almost always very reasonable forum member vs. a forum member from a competitive community, behaving like a bigoted rude troll. I personally am strongly in favor of aggressive rehab, wherever it is deemed possible, but that doesn't mean I should dish out a blanket condemnation on everything AjiuO is saying. In his follow up posts it is clear, he was making an attempt to further explain all facets of his opinion, many of which seemed to be pretty moderate.

Do you hear yourself?

Overall that conversation went well, maybe a little misunderstanding between the two, and both have valid points.

Then there's your comment. WOW guys are things slowing down that much along the Wasatch front, that a mountain states battle has to take place over a few mole hill comments?

Come on guys squash the opinions regarding the treatment of America's incarcerated. That's a subject completely out of our control and really has no place on this type of forum.

The CO vs UT and vise versa crap has gotta stop, this is coming from BLM The guy who pretty much wouldn't blink an eye if Utah disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Rape is never consensual.. And what's unnerving is that you would even suggest that sexual relations between an adult and a child are acceptable under any circumstances.

If a 17-year-old girl chooses to have sexual relations with the 40-year-old man that is neither rape nor is there a child involved... I think we all know what I'm talking about here... And even starts to become questionable if you become much younger than that.. Even if it is consensual... Because it would still be manipulative on the other person's part.

And yes I think child rapist are one of the worst types of criminals on the face of this planet... And I would like nothing better than to see them stoned to death hanging from cages on main street...

I would not call putting deserving criminals to death murder... Murder implies something illegal... I would say that it makes us killers... But being killers is in our nature.. We kill for food.. That doesn't make this bad... I think that it's wrong to kill a living being without purpose... I would rarely even kill a spider... However putting to death an evil human being who would wish to rape a child or murder another human being is completely acceptable... So yes in extreme cases I find it perfectly acceptable to kill a human being... You'll find that evil people who fear death are better able to control themselves.. And yes although I am in atheist I do believe that there are some evil people out there

How about consensual sex between a 17 year old and an 18 year old? One is a minor, the other an adult. What say you?

[delts145]

Originally Posted by blm3034L!fe

The CO vs UT and vise versa crap has gotta stop, this is coming from BLM The guy who pretty much wouldn't blink an eye if Utah disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow.

This is sooo hilarious, coming from the mother of all freaking expletives and stink bombs on this forum...You are truly a one man circus BLM!

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Old&New

How about consensual sex between a 17 year old and an 18 year old? One is a minor, the other an adult. What say you?

Dude.. Seriously.. I never used the word minor. 16 is the concent age. im talking about "children" and "rape".. You keep bringing up situations that are neither I would never suggest executing a 17 & 18 yEar old for having consensual sex.

If a 25 year old raped a 10 year old.. That is very different from consensual sex between two people 1 year apart.

[SL,UT]

I'm so sick of the Nerd Drama on this forum.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Dude.. Seriously.. I never used the word minor. 16 is the concent age. im talking about "children" and "rape".. You keep bringing up situations that are neither I would never suggest executing a 17 & 18 yEar old for having consensual sex.

If a 25 year old raped a 10 year old.. That is very different from consensual sex between two people 1 year apart.

How about a 15 year old with a 16 year old claiming to have having consensual sex?

...or a 15 year old with an 18 year old claiming to have having consensual sex?

I'm so interested to know where you draw the line.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Old&New

How about a 15 year old with a 16 year old claiming to have having consensual sex?

...or a 15 year old with an 18 year old claiming to have having consensual sex?

I'm so interested to know where you draw the line.

Why do you keep talking about consensual sex between teenagers with very little age difference??

I don't know how many times I can repeat myself.

I draw the line at a lot of places.. I draw the line at rape.. Period.

I also would draw the line at sexual relations between an adult and a child, an older teenager and a child, an adult and a younger teenager...

There are situations that are clearly child rape and then there are gray areas... That's why we have trials juries and judges

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Old&New

How about a 15 year old with a 16 year old claiming to have having consensual sex?

...or a 15 year old with an 18 year old claiming to have having consensual sex?

I'm so interested to know where you draw the line.

I would consider anyone probably over the age of 16 having sex with anyone under the age of 13 child rape... 13-15 is a gray area

[Salty Laker]

People under the age of 25 shouldn't be having sex anyway.

[JMK]

This video is buzzing around the internets today,

Students upset to discover yearbook photos were altered to show less skin

http://fox13now.com/2014/05/28/students-...-photos-were-altered-before-publication/

Female students at a Utah high school want to know why their yearbook photos were altered to show less skin without them knowing about it.

The students who were surprised to find their photos altered attend Wasatch High School, and some of them said they also feel upset because it appears the decisions whether to alter the photos or not weren’t made consistently.

[Salty Laker]

I like cucumbers and melons.

[Brock Landers]

You may want to click the link and view the photos before labeling these girls sluts.

[Salty Laker]

Why am I so pretty?