Mountain West Microbrew: Chit chat and irrelevancy

[jedikermit]

^^^^^

My biggest concern about moving the prison to a "BFE" location is the loss of volunteer services that the prison would see. My dad taught classes there, my wife has coordinated rehabilitation and therapy services for them...a lot of the "stuff" that happens in the prison is more dependent on those volunteers than we may realize. Moving it too far off of the Wasatch Front would make it more difficult for those things to happen on a regular basis.

I don't necessarily disagree with moving it from Draper (although I still think it's a cash grab either from legislator-developers or legislators-in-the-pockets-of-developers)...but where it ends up concerns me.

[utenation]

Originally Posted by jedikermit

^^^^^

My biggest concern about moving the prison to a "BFE" location is the loss of volunteer services that the prison would see. My dad taught classes there, my wife has coordinated rehabilitation and therapy services for them...a lot of the "stuff" that happens in the prison is more dependent on those volunteers than we may realize. Moving it too far off of the Wasatch Front would make it more difficult for those things to happen on a regular basis.

I don't necessarily disagree with moving it from Draper (although I still think it's a cash grab either from legislator-developers or legislators-in-the-pockets-of-developers)...but where it ends up concerns me.

I see more jobs, housing-business(tax revenue), schools, parks, science-technology, engineering opportunities and community development..

While I believe rehabilitation is important, I don't think this out weighs the potential and lost opportunity. Moving the prison to another less populated area also creates new opportunity with jobs, education etc for the new location. Possibly a smaller community needing a spark..

Volunteer opportunities are all over the place within feet of our front doors in a community of 1.2 million. I would also like to see southern SL county capture some of the boom happening in northern Utah County.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by Scottk

Your viewpoint is a perfect example why the rest of the nation would never even consider living in Utah. I don't even know where to begin.

Exactly why I am happy to be in colorado, and not utah

Please don't lump the rest of us in with him. I'm sure there are a few just like him over there in Denver.

[delts145]

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Guys Please, why are we not giving our own forum member the benefit of a doubt, especially when it's AjiuO, who has contributed a great deal to the participation on this forum. He was personally assaulted, and if I remember correctly brutally so. He has some strong residual feelings on the matter, which is perfectly understandable. As much as he posts, you should all have a much better feel for his overall view than what you would seem to indicate by your responses to a local, almost always very reasonable forum member vs. a forum member from a competitive community, behaving like a bigoted rude troll. I personally am strongly in favor of aggressive rehab, wherever it is deemed possible, but that doesn't mean I should dish out a blanket condemnation on everything AjiuO is saying. In his follow up posts it is clear, he was making an attempt to further explain all facets of his opinion, many of which seemed to be pretty moderate.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Old&New

You're barbaric. Execution should not be a punishment. Murder the Murderers? ...then we are the murderers!

Also, your sentiment about putting "child rapists" to death is also unnerving to me, since--and I assume you're using the term generally--I imagine there are some cases where there is a mutual sexual attraction between a minor and an adult. In those cases, the only point I can see in having such laws is to protect the individuals--who might otherwise engage--from our judgmental, intolerant society and the shame we'd foist upon them should they be sexual together. Yes, someone who commits rape should be punished, and I think there should be laws in place that provide these consequences be carried out (something other than death). But when the feelings are mutual? I could certainly find tolerance in myself for that.

Maybe it's just me, the oppressed homosexual, not wanting to become the oppressor myself.

Funny how talks of moving a prison could ignite such a conversation.

Rape is never consensual.. And what's unnerving is that you would even suggest that sexual relations between an adult and a child are acceptable under any circumstances.

If a 17-year-old girl chooses to have sexual relations with the 40-year-old man that is neither rape nor is there a child involved... I think we all know what I'm talking about here... And even starts to become questionable if you become much younger than that.. Even if it is consensual... Because it would still be manipulative on the other person's part.

And yes I think child rapist are one of the worst types of criminals on the face of this planet... And I would like nothing better than to see them stoned to death hanging from cages on main street...

I would not call putting deserving criminals to death murder... Murder implies something illegal... I would say that it makes us killers... But being killers is in our nature.. We kill for food.. That doesn't make this bad... I think that it's wrong to kill a living being without purpose... I would rarely even kill a spider... However putting to death an evil human being who would wish to rape a child or murder another human being is completely acceptable... So yes in extreme cases I find it perfectly acceptable to kill a human being... You'll find that evil people who fear death are better able to control themselves.. And yes although I am in atheist I do believe that there are some evil people out there

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by utenation

Having lived in Draper(South Mountain), I disagree 100%. The current location may have made sense 50-60 years ago when the valley was less populated but as of now you have houses(families) living right next door.. This prison needs to be relocated to Tooele county or some other BFE location. Times have changed.

That area is prime real estate and a tax gold mine.. The prison now is nothing but a bad tax burden to the public.. I would gladly pax extra tax to have this moved to out of sight-out of mind.

Got ya.. If they are going to move it. It should be somewhere that we don't hit the same curb in 50 years.. Antelope island or the desert.

[brankrom]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

.........You'll find that evil people who fear death are better able to control themselves.....

Way, way, way off topic but when I see crap like this, its complete nonsense. The death penalty has never been shown to be a deterrent to violent crime, ever.

Sociopaths just don't care. We can all agree rape is bad, murder is bad (including murder by the state) and theree are just some people that can't play nice with others. But putting another human in the position of taking another's life is not without consequences either, regardless of how scummy the person was. No other country has the prison population or the propensity to incarcerate as the "home of the free".

[DMTower]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

And yes I think child rapist are one of the worst types of criminals on the face of this planet... And I would like nothing better than to see them stoned to death hanging from cages on main street...

I understand the sentiment you are expressing, but I do have a problem with the solutions you are proposing. Whether they deserve it or not, treating a human being in that manner degrades us and is toxic to civilized society. That kind of thinking is what helps people in certain regions of the world justify and tolerate terrorism and "an eye for an eye" mentality. These are the same regions that believe in stoning your neighbors for perceived offenses, cutting off hands, etc. Witnessing and participating in that form of "justice" desensitizes them to killing and brutality and perpetuates that mental disease. It doesn't seem to be working for them and it won't for us.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by delts145

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Guys Please, why are we not giving our own forum member the benefit of a doubt, especially when it's AjiuO, who has contributed a great deal to the participation on this forum. He was personally assaulted, and if I remember correctly brutally so. He has some strong residual feelings on the matter, which is perfectly understandable. As much as he posts, you should all have a much better feel for his overall view than what you would seem to indicate by your responses to a local, almost always very reasonable forum member vs. a forum member from a competitive community, behaving like a bigoted rude troll. I personally am strongly in favor of aggressive rehab, wherever it is deemed possible, but that doesn't mean I should dish out a blanket condemnation on everything AjiuO is saying. In his follow up posts it is clear, he was making an attempt to further explain all facets of his opinion, many of which seemed to be pretty moderate.

I try not to take anything on this form to personally.. I'm sure that there are people who do.. But there's nothing that I can do about that... I understand that some people do believe in rehab.. I Don't have a problem with people supporting rehab.. This is a republic where we have a battle of ideas and the most popular and well represented idea wins.. That's not going to stop me from arguing my point of view.. Yes I believe in personal freedom personal responsibility, in extreme cases execution... In fact I support public execution for the most extreme cases because I think it makes a good example for would-be wrongdoers... I'm not talking about killing innocent people for no reason... And as I have stated I do believe in rehab as a compliment to punishment not as a alternative... So long is it something that can be effective... This can sometimes be helpful with substance abusers and people who commit fraud... However if you have committed the ultimate crime I do not believe in rehab... I would not rehab a child rapist or a cold blooded murder.. :-)

[delts145]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Got ya.. If they are going to move it. It should be somewhere that we don't hit the same curb in 50 years.. Antelope island or the desert.

Rush Valley was the best bet, right? If that is the case then we're looking at another century or more before it would probably become if ever an issue. Rush is close enough though for a doable commute for Cedar and Tooele Valley residents.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by DMTower

I understand the sentiment you are expressing, but I do have a problem with the solutions you are proposing. Whether they deserve it or not, treating a human being in that manner degrades us and is toxic to civilized society. That kind of thinking is what helps people in certain regions of the world justify and tolerate terrorism and "an eye for an eye" mentality. These are the same regions that believe in stoning your neighbors for perceived offenses, cutting off hands, etc. Witnessing and participating in that form of "justice" desensitizes them to killing and brutality and perpetuates that mental disease. It doesn't seem to be working for them and it won't for us.

First of all I completely believe in American justice.. No one should be punished for a crimes that they are not proven to have committed without a reasonable doubt... I do not support personnel revenge or vengeance.. I support state administered punishment that is appropriate for the crime.. And yes.. Execution is appropriate for murder and child rape..

Haven't you noticed that the more excepting we have become of violent criminals.. The more violent that American culture has become? Back when people despised violent criminals we didn't have a mass killing of the week.

If people come to except violent criminals it's not a far leap for violent crime to become more acceptable. I would argue that us becoming more accepting of violent criminals.. Is what is not working out... And the proof is basically all around you.. Things just get worse and worse the more accepting we become of wrong doing.

Example: Bill Clinton lied to us.. We gave him a pass... And now we are at a point where the president does and says what ever he wants.. And no one cares.. We have no standards.. No one is held accountable for anything.. The buck doesn't stop anywhere.. It's just passed around until no one knows or cares what's going on :-/

[RosePark]

The prison was there first. If you don't want to live next to a prison, that's just one of many solid reasons not to move to Draper.

[utenation]

Originally Posted by RosePark

The prison was there first. If you don't want to live next to a prison, that's just one of many solid reasons not to move to Draper.

I guess the USA should have never moved past the original 13 colonies.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by RosePark

The prison was there first. If you don't want to live next to a prison, that's just one of many solid reasons not to move to Draper.

Isn't the whole state of Utah a prison of sobriety?

I get why people in draper don't like it.. But it's not like criminals are breaking out and hanging around draper.. I kind of think its a wast of money..I would rather see a trax expansion.

I think we should let some of the druggies out to save money.. I think drug use should just be a findable offense.. Kind of like speeding...drug dealers should probably stay in though.. And if there are any crimes associated with the drugs.. Most druggies rely on crime to support the addiction.. But if they are only hurting themselves.. It's their choice.

[Stenar]

I live in Draper now, unfortunately. There are no families living right next door to the prison. The nearest houses are either west of the railroad tracks where you can't even see the prison or east of I-15. There are physical objects creating a great deal of separation from the prison.

Originally Posted by utenation

Having lived in Draper(South Mountain), I disagree 100%. The current location may have made sense 50-60 years ago when the valley was less populated but as of now you have houses(families) living right next door.. This prison needs to be relocated to Tooele county or some other BFE location. Times have changed.

That area is prime real estate and a tax gold mine.. The prison now is nothing but a bad tax burden to the public.. I would gladly pax extra tax to have this moved to out of sight-out of mind.

[tygr]

With the "death penalty" and "Black" line debates, this subforum has been disappointing to try to sift through to see if there's anything interesting to read about.

Can we please get back on topic, or move it to the Chit Chat/Irrelevancy subforum?

[utenation]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I live in Draper now, unfortunately. There are no families living right next door to the prison. The nearest houses are either west of the railroad tracks where you can't even see the prison or east of I-15. There are physical objects creating a great deal of separation from the prison.

Right next door is all perspective. I had a nice view of it for a few years.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

I try not to take anything on this form to personally.. I'm sure that there are people who do.. But there's nothing that I can do about that... I understand that some people do believe in rehab.. I Don't have a problem with people supporting rehab.. This is a republic where we have a battle of ideas and the most popular and well represented idea wins.. That's not going to stop me from arguing my point of view.. Yes I believe in personal freedom personal responsibility, in extreme cases execution... In fact I support public execution for the most extreme cases because I think it makes a good example for would-be wrongdoers... I'm not talking about killing innocent people for no reason... And as I have stated I do believe in rehab as a compliment to punishment not as a alternative... So long is it something that can be effective... This can sometimes be helpful with substance abusers and people who commit fraud... However if you have committed the ultimate crime I do not believe in rehab... I would not rehab a child rapist or a cold blooded murder.. :-)

Fair enough, however I would suggest you look into the case of Ron Williamson, of Ada Oklahoma. Ron Williamson was wrongly convicted of murder in 1988, and was sentenced to death. He spent 11 years in prison, and came within weeks of receiving the death penalty before he was exonerated of all charges. During the time he spent in prison, his mental health rapidly deteriorated, and once he was released from prison, he was mentally unstable. Ron was never able to live a normal life. This occurred because of the brutal prison conditions that he lived in, and a lack of rehabilitation (I would like to point out that your bizarre stance actually seems to support brutal prison conditions and a lack of rehab).

The fact of the matter is that cops and witnesses lie. I have to find the study, but I read recently that cops are actually 2X more likely to lie under oath than civilians. Put simply, the US "justice" system often does not achieve true justice.

As has already been pointed out, a large proportion of the people in US prisons are there because of non violent crimes. Yet you are advocating in favor of worse conditions for prisoners? And you don't support rehabilitation for prisoners, despite the fact that there is significant evidence indicating rehabilitation to be far more effective at reducing recidivism rates? What exactly do you think is going to happen if you put a mentally ill person with violent tendencies in a cage surrounded by thousands of other mentally ill people with violent tendencies in cages? Am I living in Nazi Germany or something??? Your view on this issue is exactly why so many people in America are incarcerated... the root of the problem is never addressed.

It has already been pointed out that America has a larger prison population than the next 3 biggest countries combined. Yet we consider ourselves the home of the free. Wake up people - we are living in a police state. I would also suggest reading into the for profit prison system that is being created across America. Really spooky stuff that our prison system is being run by corporations with incentive to keep as many people in jail as possible.

To put it simply, if you believe our current methods of incarceration are so effective (and actually support worsening prison conditions and reduced rehabilitation), then why do we have such a massive population of the incarcerated??

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by delts145

I salute you Orlando and all of you for being far more respectful in your response than I probably would have been, especially if I hadn't waited until this morning to post. There are more than enough bigoted stereotypes to go around for most States, particularly these days for Colorado.

No, no. You missed my point. What I was saying was a fact. People from states outside of Utah view the place as.... how do I say this... a bit "off". The point I was trying to make is that radical stances like Oijous (or whatever his name is) are exactly the reason why people still feel this way about Utah.

I am not saying this to be offensive. I believe this to be fact. Ask 100 people from across the U.S. their opinions on Utah, and I think a very large portion would be negative. I know this sounds like a dick thing to say but I really don't mean it that way. How recently did you guys begin to allow anyone into a bar? 10 years? Can you even buy alcohol on Sundays in Utah yet? Like it or not, these types of things give Utah a bad image. My point was that Oijous post furthered the negative images associated with Utah.

Also, I would much rather be stereotyped as being from a state that allows responsible adults the freedom to make their own decisions. Especially considering marijuana is safer than alcohol. I view Colorado as a state that supports freedom. We took a stance on ending the failed drug war. I believe that this is not a negative stereotype associated with Colorado, and the rest of the nation (except for Utah, of course) views Colorado as sensible for doing so.

[utenation]

Originally Posted by Scottk

No, no. You missed my point. What I was saying was a fact. People from states outside of Utah view the place as.... how do I say this... a bit "off". The point I was trying to make is that radical stances like Oijous (or whatever his name is) are exactly the reason why people still feel this way about Utah.

I am not saying this to be offensive. I believe this to be fact. Ask 100 people from across the U.S. their opinions on Utah, and I think a very large portion would be negative. I know this sounds like a dick thing to say but I really don't mean it that way. How recently did you guys begin to allow anyone into a bar? 10 years? Can you even buy alcohol on Sundays in Utah yet? Like it or not, these types of things give Utah a bad image. My point was that Oijous post furthered the negative images associated with Utah.

Also, I would much rather be stereotyped as being from a state that allows responsible adults the freedom to make their own decisions. Especially considering marijuana is safer than alcohol. I view Colorado as a state that supports freedom. We took a stance on ending the failed drug war. I believe that this is not a negative stereotype associated with Colorado, and the rest of the nation (except for Utah, of course) views Colorado as sensible for doing so.

Look, I don't want to be rude.. But anytime you use sweeping generalizations with opinion or suggestions as your proof, you will never sell anyone but yourself.

Combine that with your lack of knowledge of our laws only shows you've done little to no homework on the matter.. I think most locals on this forum will agree that Utah may seem off to some outsiders but when you say "Your viewpoint is a perfect example why the rest of the nation would never even consider living in Utah" just shows what you really know.. I had no idea you spoke for the rest of the nation.. Must have missed Utah's growth rate too..