Mountain West Microbrew: Chit chat and irrelevancy

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Interzen

He also implied in the transportation forum that over-prescribing antibiotics to shut up overly needy patients is good policy. Interesting perspective he has.

Please, You think educating Americans who can't grasp climate change about super bugs is productive? The typical reaction involves incredulousness that bugs could find capes that fit them.

And for the record, I don't prescribe to anyone anywhere for any reason. Although I'd be willing to reconsider that policy for you if you actually take half the things I say seriously.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Sad that it was so obvious but only the lawyer spotted it. I guess it takes a JD to call out the most transparent nonsense these days. Bunt, at least you never disappoint.

I just figure that the self-serving hypocrisy, satirical of course, was the de facto practice of Americans. It didn't even make me blink.

[Cirrus]

I moved Wizened's post here opining about the structure of the subforum to the thread we set up for people to opine about the structure of the subforum.

[CPVLIVE]

Check out this video of Gravy the dog tearing it up on Berthoud Pass yesterday.

Video Link

[ajiuO]

I don't even understand the point in moving the prison.. It's fine where it is.. I don't want my money going to build nicer prison facilities.. I want the people there to be as uncomfortable as possible...

Unless we are going to build somthing that makes Alcatraz look like a fluffy dream out on antelope Island or in the middle of the desert... No windows, no recreationle facilities, no cable & internet.

I believe in punishing criminals not rehabilitating them... The rehabilitation comes to those who have not yet had the opportunity to visit the prison... It's called fear.. Fear of how we treat criminals.

If we must move the prison though I think we should turn the old prison into a new transient camp and close all the places downtown. They could even install a small liquor store and a Greyhound substation!!

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

I don't even understand the point in moving the prison.. It's fine where it is.. I don't want my money going to build nicer prison facilities.. I want the people there to be as uncomfortable as possible...

Unless we are going to build somthing that makes Alcatraz look like a fluffy dream out on antelope Island or in the middle of the desert... No windows, no recreationle facilities, no cable & internet.

I believe in punishing criminals not rehabilitating them... The rehabilitation comes to those who have not yet had the opportunity to visit the prison... It's called fear.. Fear of how we treat criminals.

If we must move the prison though I think we should turn the old prison into a new transient camp and close all the places downtown. They could even install a small liquor store and a Greyhound substation!!

Exactly why I am glad that I live in Colorado and not Utah. Unless of course you were being sarcastic, in which case, well played.

I disagree with the notion that prisons should not rehabilitate people. This is the exact reason why our prison system in the US is so extremely ineffective, and is made fun of by the rest of the civilized world. Posts like yours are the exact reason that America, the land of the "free" has the largest imprisoned population on earth. This is also e reason that so many people are imprisoned in for profit prisons due to victimless crimes....

Although I think you are being sarcastic. My apologies if so

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

I don't even understand the point in moving the prison.. It's fine where it is.. I don't want my money going to build nicer prison facilities.. I want the people there to be as uncomfortable as possible...

Unless we are going to build somthing that makes Alcatraz look like a fluffy dream out on antelope Island or in the middle of the desert... No windows, no recreationle facilities, no cable & internet.

I believe in punishing criminals not rehabilitating them... The rehabilitation comes to those who have not yet had the opportunity to visit the prison... It's called fear.. Fear of how we treat criminals.

If we must move the prison though I think we should turn the old prison into a new transient camp and close all the places downtown. They could even install a small liquor store and a Greyhound substation!!

You'd love it in North Korea.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Comrade

You'd love it in North Korea.

Why is that?? It's true.. I actually believe that murders and child rapist should be executed.. Publicly.. I also don't think the violent criminals should be put in a prison with free Internet and cable TV.. At the expense of honest people who work hard for their money.

I do not believe in Communism, Socialism, or very much government control at all for that matter.. The North Korean government is one of the most communistic governments that wants to control every aspect of every person's life... That is the exact opposite of what I want.

I believe in personal freedom and personal responsibility... So long as people choose not to harm other people they have absolutely nothing to worry about.. I don't even care if people choose to destroy their own lives with drugs and alcohol.. But if they need to resort to crime to support their life choices.. Then they should pay for that crime.

As for my transient comment I'm not suggesting that we lock them in there or even ban them from the city... I'm suggesting that if we absolutely have to use tax dollars to make a haven for these people that we do it somewhere else.. And I'm not talking about the homeless people who are going to places like the roadhouse who are trying to get on their feet and trying to make their life better... Those are not the people sitting drunk on sidewalks all day begging for money and breaking into peoples cars... Those are the people I'm talking about.. If they make the free choice to devote their life to substance-abuse and laziness... Good for them.. We shouldn't have to cater to them or pay for them.. I'm willing to leave them alone as long as they are willing leave me alone which unfortunately they're not willing to do.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Why is that?? It's true.. I actually believe that murders and child rapist should be executed.. Publicly.. I also don't think the violent criminals should be put in a prison with free Internet and cable TV.. At the expense of honest people who work hard for their money.

I do not believe in Communism, Socialism, or very much government control at all for that matter.. The North Korean government is one of the most communistic governments that wants to control every aspect of every person's life... That is the exact opposite of what I want.

I believe in personal freedom and personal responsibility... So long as people choose not to harm other people they have absolutely nothing to worry about.. I don't even care if people choose to destroy their own lives with drugs and alcohol.. But if they need to resort to crime to support their life choices.. Then they should pay for that crime.

As for my transient comment I'm not suggesting that we lock them in there or even ban them from the city... I'm suggesting that if we absolutely have to use tax dollars to make a haven for these people that we do it somewhere else.. And I'm not talking about the homeless people who are going to places like the roadhouse who are trying to get on their feet and trying to make their life better... Those are not the people sitting drunk on sidewalks all day begging for money and breaking into peoples cars... Those are the people I'm talking about.. If they make the free choice to devote their life to substance-abuse and laziness... Good for them.. We shouldn't have to cater to them or pay for them.. I'm willing to leave them alone as long as they are willing leave me alone which unfortunately they're not willing to do.

North Korea also doesn't like to rehabilitate its criminals. Your original post didn't make any mention of violent sex offenders or murderers - you just pointed out you wanted prisons built to house prisoners.

I don't think you'd find much opposition in incarcerating individuals who are dangerous and violent. The problem is that those individuals make up less than 60% of the prison population - leaving a whole lot of people you're subsidizing who probably haven't committed anything truly deplorable.

The U.S. loves locking up its citizens and a lot sit in our prisons because of petty shit.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Why is that?? It's true.. I actually believe that murders and child rapist should be executed.. Publicly.. I also don't think the violent criminals should be put in a prison with free Internet and cable TV.. At the expense of honest people who work hard for their money.

I do not believe in Communism, Socialism, or very much government control at all for that matter.. The North Korean government is one of the most communistic governments that wants to control every aspect of every person's life... That is the exact opposite of what I want.

I believe in personal freedom and personal responsibility... So long as people choose not to harm other people they have absolutely nothing to worry about.. I don't even care if people choose to destroy their own lives with drugs and alcohol.. But if they need to resort to crime to support their life choices.. Then they should pay for that crime.

As for my transient comment I'm not suggesting that we lock them in there or even ban them from the city... I'm suggesting that if we absolutely have to use tax dollars to make a haven for these people that we do it somewhere else.. And I'm not talking about the homeless people who are going to places like the roadhouse who are trying to get on their feet and trying to make their life better... Those are not the people sitting drunk on sidewalks all day begging for money and breaking into peoples cars... Those are the people I'm talking about.. If they make the free choice to devote their life to substance-abuse and laziness... Good for them.. We shouldn't have to cater to them or pay for them.. I'm willing to leave them alone as long as they are willing leave me alone which unfortunately they're not willing to do.

Your viewpoint is a perfect example why the rest of the nation would never even consider living in Utah. I don't even know where to begin.

Exactly why I am happy to be in colorado, and not utah

[ajiuO]

It was a generalization.. And I stand by my statement as a generalization.. People need to be evaluated on an individual basis.. And there are people who will take advantage of rehabilitation.. But I don't believe in rehabilitation as an alternative to punishment.. It should happen in addition to punishment.. People need to understand that actions have consequences and be made to fear the consequences for inappropriate actions.. It's basically a joke right now.. People have nothing to fear any more and have been taught to pass the responsibility of inappropriate actions on other people... People have come to accept that criminals are victims.. No one is held responsible for their own actions anymore.. It's the videogames fault, it's Hollywood's fault, it's the guns fault. It's never the person who pulls the trigger.

So sure.. If someone's in prison for tax fraud.. maybe they need a few lessons on ethics.. If you want to call that rehabilitation.. whatever!! That does not negate the fact that they are criminals and deserve to pay the consequences for their actions... They don't need television, they don't need the Internet.. They need time to sit alone and think about what they've done.. I do think that there are different levels of crime and different types of criminals should be separated.. For example murderers and child rapist should be kept in solitary confinement with no windows and not be permitted to socialize with anybody. Fraud criminals should just be kept in a cell with a bunk mate or two.. And attend ethics classes in addition to their punishment not as part of their punishment.. NO ONE SHOULD BE WATCHING CABLE TV!!

I think the mental asylums of old should be reestablished and the mentally insane should be kept there.

Did we have an average of 1 to 2 mass shootings a year back when people had fear for the consequences for crime?? No!! And where we are Communistic oppressive country like North Korea??? Less so than we are now.

People excepting consequences for their actions.. Including bad consequences for bad actions.. That's the ticket.. Prison isn't helping anybody because it's a joke no one fears it.. I actually know of somebody who intentionally gets arrested so that they have a place to live... Disgusting.. They have everything they could want right in jail.. If you made incarceration I thing that no sane human being would want to Indoor.. people might think twice before committing crime.. And as for these crazy f****** that keep popping up... Rehabilitation isn't working on the criminally insane either... They are just victims who need to see a psychiatrist... Until they kill a bunch of people.. Then it's the guns fault... I say let's lock them in Danvers... This latest lunatic killed half his victims with the knife so I guess we need to take knives away to... Bahh :-/

[ajiuO]

It basically seems like honest hard-working people have to give up their freedom and their hard earned money so that criminals can be treated like victims... I, quite frankly, find it disgusting.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

It basically seems like honest hard-working people have to give up their freedom and their hard earned money so that criminals can be treated like victims... I, quite frankly, find it disgusting.

Criminals aren't treated like victims unless they legitimately are victims.

Frankly, as a taxpayer, you should be advocating for an overhaul of the prison system so your dollars aren't going to pay for their stay at the Utah State Prison (which works out to be about $186 a year per Utah taxpayer).

The problem isn't entirely criminals. It's a system that focuses on incarceration as a means to every end - and not the rehabilitation you so vilify.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by Scottk

Your viewpoint is a perfect example why the rest of the nation would never even consider living in Utah. I don't even know where to begin.

Exactly why I am happy to be in colorado, and not utah

Hey, c'mon man. Just because this guy spouted off some stuff, doesn't mean everyone or even most Utahns are like that. You should know better than to judge a group from an opinion of one individual. Utah is a pretty cool place. It has some beautiful and unique geography, and some great people. Many Utahns have even spent years abroad in foreign lands. I, myself, am from Utah, and spent a couple years with Cambodian immigrants in the inner city areas of Philadelphia. We're not what you stereotyped us to be.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Tongan... Sorry I do everything on my iPhone..

Tongan Crip Gang. The crypts are only involved later when they kill people.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Hey, c'mon man. Just because this guy spouted off some stuff, doesn't mean everyone or even most Utahns are like that. You should know better than to judge a group from an opinion of one individual. Utah is a pretty cool place. It has some beautiful and unique geography, and some great people. Many Utahns have even spent years abroad in foreign lands. I, myself, am from Utah, and spent a couple years with Cambodian immigrants in the inner city areas of Philadelphia. We're not what you stereotyped us to be.

I lived in Norway for several years. Norway has the lowest recidivism rate in the world because they rehabilitate their prisoners.

[jedikermit]

Originally Posted by Scottk

Your viewpoint is a perfect example why the rest of the nation would never even consider living in Utah. I don't even know where to begin.

Exactly why I am happy to be in colorado, and not utah

You have to realize that I've never met anyone in person expressing opinions as extreme as he is. Fringey-fringe.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Hey, c'mon man. Just because this guy spouted off some stuff, doesn't mean everyone or even most Utahns are like that. You should know better than to judge a group from an opinion of one individual. Utah is a pretty cool place. It has some beautiful and unique geography, and some great people. Many Utahns have even spent years abroad in foreign lands. I, myself, am from Utah, and spent a couple years with Cambodian immigrants in the inner city areas of Philadelphia. We're not what you stereotyped us to be.

I lived in Norway for several years. Norway has the lowest recidivism rate in the world because they rehabilitate their prisoners.

The Norwegian prison where inmates are treated like people
On Bastoy prison island in Norway, the prisoners, some of whom are murderers and rapists, live in conditions that critics brand 'cushy' and 'luxurious'. Yet it has by far the lowest reoffending rate in Europe

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

... It always seemed to me while I was in jail that the real prison scandal was the horrendous rate of reoffending among released prisoners. In 2007, 14 prisons in England and Wales had reconvictions rates of more than 70%. At an average cost of £40,000 a year for each prisoner, this amounts to a huge investment in failure – and a total lack of consideration for potential future victims of released prisoners. That's the reason I'm keen to have a look at what has been hailed as the world's first "human ecological prison"....

"In closed prisons we keep them locked up for some years and then let them back out, not having had any real responsibility for working or cooking. In the law, being sent to prison is nothing to do with putting you in a terrible prison to make you suffer. The punishment is that you lose your freedom. If we treat people like animals when they are in prison they are likely to behave like animals. Here we pay attention to you as human beings."

A clinical psychologist by profession, Nilsen shrugs off any notion that he is running a holiday camp. I sense his frustration. "You don't change people by power," he says. "For the victim, the offender is in prison. That is justice. I'm not stupid. I'm a realist. Here I give prisoners respect; this way we teach them to respect others. But we are watching them all the time. It is important that when they are released they are less likely to commit more crimes. That is justice for society."

The reoffending rate for those released from Bastoy speaks for itself. At just 16%, it is the lowest in Europe....

[utenation]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

I don't even understand the point in moving the prison.. It's fine where it is.. I don't want my money going to build nicer prison facilities.. I want the people there to be as uncomfortable as possible...

Having lived in Draper(South Mountain), I disagree 100%. The current location may have made sense 50-60 years ago when the valley was less populated but as of now you have houses(families) living right next door.. This prison needs to be relocated to Tooele county or some other BFE location. Times have changed.

That area is prime real estate and a tax gold mine.. The prison now is nothing but a bad tax burden to the public.. I would gladly pax extra tax to have this moved to out of sight-out of mind.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Why is that?? It's true.. I actually believe that murders and child rapist should be executed.. Publicly.. I also don't think the violent criminals should be put in a prison with free Internet and cable TV.. At the expense of honest people who work hard for their money.

I do not believe in Communism, Socialism, or very much government control at all for that matter.. The North Korean government is one of the most communistic governments that wants to control every aspect of every person's life... That is the exact opposite of what I want.

I believe in personal freedom and personal responsibility... So long as people choose not to harm other people they have absolutely nothing to worry about.. I don't even care if people choose to destroy their own lives with drugs and alcohol.. But if they need to resort to crime to support their life choices.. Then they should pay for that crime.

As for my transient comment I'm not suggesting that we lock them in there or even ban them from the city... I'm suggesting that if we absolutely have to use tax dollars to make a haven for these people that we do it somewhere else.. And I'm not talking about the homeless people who are going to places like the roadhouse who are trying to get on their feet and trying to make their life better... Those are not the people sitting drunk on sidewalks all day begging for money and breaking into peoples cars... Those are the people I'm talking about.. If they make the free choice to devote their life to substance-abuse and laziness... Good for them.. We shouldn't have to cater to them or pay for them.. I'm willing to leave them alone as long as they are willing leave me alone which unfortunately they're not willing to do.

You're barbaric. Execution should not be a punishment. Murder the Murderers? ...then we are the murderers!

Also, your sentiment about putting "child rapists" to death is also unnerving to me, since--and I assume you're using the term generally--I imagine there are some cases where there is a mutual sexual attraction between a minor and an adult. In those cases, the only point I can see in having such laws is to protect the individuals--who might otherwise engage--from our judgmental, intolerant society and the shame we'd foist upon them should they be sexual together. Yes, someone who commits rape should be punished, and I think there should be laws in place that provide these consequences be carried out (something other than death). But when the feelings are mutual? I could certainly find tolerance in myself for that.

Maybe it's just me, the oppressed homosexual, not wanting to become the oppressor myself.

Funny how talks of moving a prison could ignite such a conversation.