Urban vs Suburban - 2 styles enter, one style leaves!

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by RWin

Law isn't really a profession of last resort. I don't really see a meaningfull comparison here.

There is nothing you can say about prostitution that doesn't also apply to a laundry list of other jobs that people end up doing throughout their lives, except that it is illegal.

Working at McDonalds or as a cashier at a grocery store is also a "profession of last resort" for some, and for others it isn't. Same thing with prostitution.

The comparison with law firms was that the working conditions at a law firm are in many ways worse than what many prostitutes face (hours, pay, and even being exploited).

[Ramsayfarian]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Absolutely. I'm not sure if you're implying it, but I'm not sure that I think prostitution automatically brings "misery". But certainly under our current system, yeah.

I'm not implying that it automatically brings misery, but I think it is safe to say that it does when one is forced into it.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by geotag277

The comparison with law firms was that the working conditions at a law firm are in many ways worse than what many prostitutes face (hours, pay, and even being exploited).

I like your use of law because most people envision lawyers as being some rich sub-class, happily living as the 1% etc.

I loathe lawyers as much as anyone, but I know a lot of them and most of them aren't very well paid. Even after they're articling or interning or what have you. But I know a lot of people who do tons of Legal Aid work, so that may be part of it.

And personally, I hate doing paperwork more than I hate sex - even really bad sex. So it's a good comparison. Although I suppose if I were a prostitute my clients would end up being all men, so I'd probably start learning to enjoy paperwork more.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Plenty of women (and men, let's not forget) enjoy the profession of prostitution. What two consenting adults do without harming others the government should have limited ability to make out right illegal.

That said I would think the highest priority issue regarding making prostitution legal is limiting human trafficking. There are no accurate studies on human trafficking, it is one of the most underfunded and understudied industries, I have a very bad feeling it is worse than other of us really expect.

Second highest would be protecting all participants, giving them solid effective outlets to report abuse and exploitation, and hold prostitution businesses to a higher standard of transparency and accountability. This could easily be funded with a prostitution tax.

Also, prostitution, much like stripping, is largely a career choice with an expiry date. Having transition plans in place and training options to transition people to different careers would also be important, again you could probably fund something like this with an additional tax, although people don't really seem to care about career strippers so if legal this is probably something that will be underfunded.

The big problem is that every case is unique and there is a huge grey area riddled with danger and potential for abuse. Does anyone really aspire to get into such work? Even if she (or he, I guess) loves the power, sense of control, money, good parties, whatever, how can a regulatory body possibly determine that they weren't coerced into it by a "boyfriend", that they aren't in that position because of drugs and alcohol, that they aren't victims of trafficking, that they aren't being put at risk, that they aren't spreading disease, that the aren't indebted to someone to whom they know no other way to pay, that they are free to leave at any time? I'm not sure that consent can be guaranteed. And then there are all kinds of other potential risks to sexworker and client that range from extortion, forced confinement, abduction, sexual abuse, etc. It's because of these concerns that prostitution is fundamentally different from any other profession.

I will add, however, that stigma against sex trade workers and their customers (which clearly you don't exhibit) is a problem as well. If we can all be a little more open minded (like you are, though I take a different position), people might feel more comfortable coming forward to report abuse and ask for help.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

I'm not implying that it automatically brings misery, but I think it is safe to say that it does when one is forced into it.

I don't believe making prostitution illegal is helping to identify and protect those who are being forced into it.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

I'm not implying that it automatically brings misery, but I think it is safe to say that it does when one is forced into it.

I certainly can't disagree with you there. And the sexual nature of it definitely makes it worse even to me, where normally I try to disassociate that part.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I like your use of law because most people envision lawyers as being some rich sub-class, happily living as the 1% etc.

I loathe lawyers as much as anyone, but I know a lot of them and most of them aren't very well paid. Even after they're articling or interning or what have you. But I know a lot of people who do tons of Legal Aid work, so that may be part of it.

And personally, I hate doing paperwork more than I hate sex - even really bad sex. So it's a good comparison. Although I suppose if I were a prostitute my clients would end up being all men, so I'd probably start learning to enjoy paperwork more.

Lawyers, especially associates at a law firm, are treated like expendable commodities and are generally expected to put up with a mountain of BS over the course of several years just to get a shot at a decent income. There are exceptions of course but in general, it's a brutal career path.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

The big problem is that every case is unique and there is a huge grey area riddled with danger and potential for abuse. Does anyone really aspire to get into such work? Even if she (or he, I guess) loves the power, sense of control, money, good parties, whatever, how can a regulatory body possibly determine that they weren't coerced into it by a "boyfriend", that they aren't in that position because of drugs and alcohol, that they aren't victims of trafficking, that they aren't being put at risk, that they aren't spreading disease, that the aren't indebted to someone to whom they know no other way to pay, that they are free to leave at any time? I'm not sure that consent can be guaranteed. And then there are all kinds of other potential risks to sexworker and client that range from extortion, forced confinement, abduction, sexual abuse, etc. It's because of these concerns that prostitution is fundamentally different from any other profession.

I'm being slightly hyperbolic, I realize, but honestly - how are any of your concerns not applicable to marriage?

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

The big problem is that every case is unique and there is a huge grey area riddled with danger and potential for abuse. Does anyone really aspire to get into such work? Even if she (or he, I guess) loves the power, sense of control, money, good parties, whatever, how can a regulatory body possibly determine that they weren't coerced into it by a "boyfriend", that they aren't in that position because of drugs and alcohol, that they aren't victims of trafficking, that they aren't being put at risk, that they aren't spreading disease, that the aren't indebted to someone to whom they know no other way to pay, that they are free to leave at any time? I'm not sure that consent can be guaranteed. And then there are all kinds of other potential risks to sexworker and client that range from extortion, forced confinement, abduction, sexual abuse, etc. It's because of these concerns that prostitution is fundamentally different from any other profession.

You can't really guarantee the lack of coercion in anything. People get exploited doing legal jobs, spouses and significant others are coerced into doing things they don't want to do, and people do crazy things because of drugs and alcohol that has nothing to do with prostitution.

We'll never live in a perfect world. The sexual nature of prostitution make it susceptible to exploitation, but really it isn't that far removed from stripping, provocative dancing, erotic modelling or any other list of careers that are sexual in nature and completely legal.

The best thing we can do is put protections in place to make sure if abuse is happening we know and that support systems exist so people have the confidence to expose anyone trying to exploit them.

[fusili]

This forum went sideways quickly.

[RWin]

Originally Posted by fusili

This forum went sideways quickly.

Are we talking about fracking now?

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by fusili

This forum went sideways quickly.

The urban versus suburban debate is so boring, besides, urban won like 20 pages ago

[RWin]

Originally Posted by geotag277

The urban versus suburban debate is so boring, besides, urban won like 20 pages ago

It's like a local version of east vs west.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I'm being slightly hyperbolic, I realize, but honestly - how are any of your concerns not applicable to marriage?

Developing a drug addiction in your teens rarely ends in marriage.

As for calling prostitution just like working at McDonalds, it's not. Dozens of teenagers don't go missing every year from working at McDonalds. If that did happen, working at McDonalds would be illegal.



Btw, I agree with you that these things are on a spectrum. We should do what we can to protect people from exploitive workplaces and marriages too.

[Ramsayfarian]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

Developing a drug addiction in your teens rarely ends in marriage.

As for calling prostitution just like working at McDonalds, it's not. Dozens of teenagers don't go missing every year from working at McDonalds. If that did happen, working at McDonalds would be illegal.

Not sure if I read it Freakenomics or Fast Food Nation, but I recall reading that down south working in fast food can be fairly dangerous.

Did a quick google search and found this:
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=3993076

Too busy to dig any further. Of course prostitution is very dangerous and personally I'd rather be flipping burgers.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

Developing a drug addiction in your teens rarely ends in marriage.

If you don't know anyone who's gotten themselves into a shitty marriage because of substance abuse problems, you lead a fairly sheltered life. And I don't mean that in a negative way at all.

People do all sorts of stupid things as a result of addiction, I'm not sure that we should ban homelessness or panhandling on that basis either.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by fusili

This forum went sideways quickly.

If you'd prefer, we can talk about inner city crime again.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by freeweed

If you'd prefer, we can talk about inner city crime again.

Please can we?

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

Developing a drug addiction in your teens rarely ends in marriage.

As for calling prostitution just like working at McDonalds, it's not. Dozens of teenagers don't go missing every year from working at McDonalds. If that did happen, working at McDonalds would be illegal.



Btw, I agree with you that these things are on a spectrum. We should do what we can to protect people from exploitive workplaces and marriages too.

For the record no one said that working at McDonalds "was exactly the same as" prostitution. I implied that if you are against prostitution simply because for some it is a profession of last resort, the same argument works against McDonalds. In fact I bet in general a McDonalds worker would take more offence to the question "don't you love your job" compared to the average prostitute.

And human trafficking is a problem, no question. The ultimate question is - does it get easier to find and shut down exploitive operations once prostitution becomes legal, and can we be more effective at dealing with human trafficking once we can force prostitution to become a fully accountable and transparent industry? I think the answer is yes.

[Ramsayfarian]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I don't believe making prostitution illegal is helping to identify and protect those who are being forced into it.

I never said it would. If anything it makes that harder to control. I think we need to rethink the laws, making it legal won't protect them either but at least the resources spent policing all aspects of prostitution could then be focused on those who are forced into prostitution and those that are under age.

Personally, I'd rather pay for sex emotionally.