DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Alright mister, to make up for not riding the Velocirfta you have... How 'bout them apples?

Yes, good. I've been following on the social media. You have done well, and I appreciate seeing it all.

But I still don't have pictures of the Fort Collins MAX, nor a MetroRide bus in action, nor VelociRFTA. I will grudgingly admit that Ryan is pulling his weight around here. The rest of you slackers need to pick it up, before I get out my bannin' stamp.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by denverryan

I'm convinced that altering the scale between downtown and the suburbs is the key way to make the map useful.

I love your map, and totally agree that the big problem with basically every map of Denver transit ever produced is that downtown has been too small. I'd like to see one that's a little bit of a middle ground between the two approaches; something that highlights downtown without sacrificing the radial nature of the system.

It's so cool how in the absence of a good official map, we're getting all these great experiments, that all teach us something.

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

It's so cool how in the absence of a good official map, we're getting all these great experiments, that all teach us something.

Cool or frustrating with a silver lining?

[bcp]

Crowdsourcing wins!

[bunt_q]

Shocked, shocked I tell you. RTD's bold new plan is...to build everything.
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_25756484/rtd-study-points-rail-northwest-corridor

RTD study points to rail for northwest corridor

Developing a Bus Rapid Transit system on U.S. 36 between Denver and Boulder is the top priority among the corridor's residents and officials.

But commuter rail is also still important to stakeholders in the northwest area, and the Regional Transportation District needs to keep revisiting ways to deliver rail as promised under the 2004 FasTracks plan.

[Cirrus]

^
Without actually reading the technical study, the Post article's content (not the headline) seems to say exactly the opposite. Sounds like RTD is going to keep advancing the BRT, and effectively-but-not-literally kill the rail by promising to keep thinking about it but not actually do anything.

Nobody ever kills anything outright. "Keep it in the long range plan and think about it from time to time" is code for "we're not going to try to build this any time soon."

[Cirrus]

Better article from the Business Journal:

Originally Posted by Denver Business Journal

Panel: Buses should have priority over rail to Denver's Northwest suburbs
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/e...s-should-have-priority-over-rail-to.html

The Regional Transportation District shouldn’t abandon expensive plans to build a rail line serving Denver’s northwestern suburbs, but the mass transit agency’s first priority should be building a Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) system to serve the area.

That’s according to the recommendations of the Northwest Area Mobility Study Planning & Development Committee that were presented to RTD’s board of directors on Tuesday.

The committee recommended RTD focus on finishing BRT upgrades on U.S. 36 and then also add BRT systems to two other major corridors in the area, along State Highway 119 between Longmont and Boulder, and U.S. 287 between Longmont and U.S. 36, according to a presentation from the committee to the RTD’s board of directors.

The board is expected to take action on the recommendations in June.

“Recognizing that we won’t be able to complete the Northwest rail line in the near term or the mid-term — within RTD’s 2035 planning horizon — the question was what can we do to satisfy some of the mobility needs in the northwest area sooner than that,” said Chris Quinn, RTD’s planning manager for the study.

Its final recommendations include:

• Keeping the rail line in the FasTracks plan, and reevaluating its feasiblity every year in case conditions change.
• That RTD focus on completing a BRT system along U.S. 36, which is currently under construction.
• That the agency expand the BRT system beyond U.S. 36 to six additional corridors in the area, with two corridors given priority: State Highway 119, also called the Diagonal Highway, between Boulder and Longmont; and along State Highway 287 between Longmont and U.S. 36. The buses along Colorado 287 would carry riders all the way into downtown Denver, with stops along the way, Quinn said.
• That RTD work with CDOT to figure out how to speed bus traffic along northbound I-25, possibly by running buses on the shoulders of the highway, for people who are heading out of downtown Denver for Boulder.
• That in addition to the two priority BRT corridors, RTD should add BRT facilities along four other corridors as funding becomes available: South Boulder Road, Colorado Highway 7, Colorado Highway 42 and 120th Avenue.

Sounds like they made the right decision.

The Post's headline is just blatantly untrue. Bad journalism.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Better article from the Business Journal:


Sounds like they made the right decision.

The Post's headline is just blatantly untrue. Bad journalism.

Okay, so we spend big bucks to build BRT, all for that. We're also going to continue to promise big bucks to build a train later. At what point, if not today, does it become okay to "break our promise" and move on? Because that's the inevitability. Or does this continue to weigh down every transit proposal in the metro area for the next generation? Because that is what I am reading. The whole point of this study was to put one of the two to bed. So we kick the can until next year, fine. And we study it again. And again.

All this sounds like to me is terrible politics which guarantees an election loss the next time you try. The northwest corridor is not that important, frankly, they just don't have the votes. In terms of metro area politics, I think the image of RTD dithering for over a decade is far more damaging. Rather than making a bold decision to just change the plan, every year, we get another series of headlines about how RTD can't seem to finish Fastracks as promised. It makes them look incompetent, when they're really not being incompetent, they're just being afraid. I don't see how any agency benefits politically from intentionally looking like they can't deliver.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

terrible politics which guarantees an election loss the next time you try... the image of RTD dithering for over a decade is far more damaging. Rather than making a bold decision to just change the plan, every year, we get another series of headlines about how RTD can't seem to finish Fastracks as promised. It makes them look incompetent

I'm not so sure. If they cancel NW rail completely now they'll get headlines that they didn't finish FasTracks as promised from now until eternity. It will appear in every story about FasTracks until the end of time. On the other hand, canceling it outright a decade down the road has some definite advantages:

1. RTD will be able to say they've delivered a better and more cost-effective alternate. There's a key difference between delivering one and promising/planning one, since canceling rail proves plans & promises can change.
2. This reduces the likelihood of a popular groundswell rising up and demanding BRT resources be shifted to rail. We need the BRT to sail through as unimpeded as possible, and canceling rail outright would likely put that at unnecessary risk.
3. NW corridor will be even less important politically in another decade.
4. The populace will have had a long time to get used to the idea of no train.

I agree that they need to cut bait. 100%. But that seems to be exactly what RTD is doing in every way that matters. I'm sure they're not going to actually do fresh feasibility studies every year. They'll do one in the unlikely event magical money falls from the sky, but they'll otherwise forget about the rail.

You've got to have an exit strategy, right? You don't just pull out of Iraq one day. You ease them into it.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

. It makes them look incompetent, when they're really not being incompetent, they're just being afraid.

It's all the same to me.. someone who is too afraid to do what needs to be done is just as incompetent as someone who doesn't know what to do. The exact same lack of work gets performed.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

^
Without actually reading the technical study, the Post article's content (not the headline) seems to say exactly the opposite. Sounds like RTD is going to keep advancing the BRT, and effectively-but-not-literally kill the rail by promising to keep thinking about it but not actually do anything.

Nobody ever kills anything outright. "Keep it in the long range plan and think about it from time to time" is code for "we're not going to try to build this any time soon."

Agreed. RTD is very, very good at this. Expect periodic short publicity statements over the next year or so, transitioning to progress on US 36. Expect those quoted to either speak as though they are uniformed, or speak as pitchmen for what RTD is GOING to do.

RTD has learned how to do this through over a generation of experience.*

*How the opening of the Bus Terminal at DUS is being handled via the "The Denver Post" is a good example of this.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

It's all the same to me.. someone who is too afraid to do what needs to be done is just as incompetent as someone who doesn't know what to do. The exact same lack of work gets performed.

Incompetence is the most over used excuse in history. Incompetence masks the truth that we are responsible for what we do. Incompetence implies that those involved in an action were incapable of doing anything more, or anything better than what they actually did, absolving individual responsibility through collective excuse.

Often incompetence is a shield made by the premeditating few, using institutional "yes" people as cannon fodder.

[Cirrus]

A few more BRT photos from CSU's flickr feed. I still demand some from forumers.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

1. RTD will be able to say they've delivered a better and more cost-effective alternate. There's a key difference between delivering one and promising/planning one, since canceling rail proves plans & promises can change.
2. This reduces the likelihood of a popular groundswell rising up and demanding BRT resources be shifted to rail. We need the BRT to sail through as unimpeded as possible, and canceling rail outright would likely put that at unnecessary risk.
3. NW corridor will be even less important politically in another decade.

Okay, you make good points here.

And you just compared dropping the train to Boulder with withdrawing from Iraq. Best boondoggle comparison ever.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I still demand some from forumers.

Okay, who wants to make a Saturday of this? Brewery touring, development watching, and MAX riding. Did I mention brewery touring?

[seventwenty]

You did mention brewery touring. Which probably means you want someone else to DD.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

You did mention brewery touring. Which probably means you want someone else to DD.

DD? Nah. When America builds me transit, I'll stop brewery touring and driving home. But don't aggressively market beer to me a car dependent world and expect me not to respond.

[seventwenty]

That was an oddly passionate response.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

And you just compared dropping the train to Boulder with withdrawing from Iraq. Best boondoggle comparison ever.

I thought you would like that.

[PLANSIT]

Actually, the best way to vist the breweries is by bike.

Start north at Black Shirt then hit (roughly north to south)

Crooked Stave (If you can jump your bike over railroad tracks)
Epic
Our Mutual Friend
River North
Great Divide
Jagged Mountain
Skip Wynkoop, Breck, Chophouse and Rock Yard and Sandlot - ride through Commons Park/CPV to:
Denver Beer Co. (Ambiance is better than the beer)
Prost
Diebolt (If you head north to Sunnyside)
Get on S. Platte Trail
Strange
Wit's End
Colorado Cider Co.
Take 8th Viaduct to Santa Fe/Kalamath
Breck (Real one)
Black Sky
Renegade
LoDown
Ride to S. Broadway
Baere (If they're even open yet)
Trve
If you're still not drunk, head to Platte Park
Former Future

You should be hammered by the end.