DENVER | Transportation Thread

[bunt_q]

I'm not saying you can't physically have both. I'm saying you can't politically have both. And if I can't have transit, I'd rather save that road space for cars. So in that sense, no, I don't agree bike lanes are a good step. If I can't have transit, I'd prefer to maximize the automobile. Because I will never ride a bike for anything more than recreation.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

if you added in people who bike to transit.

THAT is what a good transit city has, Denver is not a good transit city, and it's not on the horizon. Pretending bike lanes make Denver a good transit city pushes that reality farther from the horizon, just like pretending USish is great guarantees it will never be great.

If you could make Denver into Portland I'd do cartwheels.. but bike lanes don't do that, anymore than storefronts with no building behind them make a real main street at Disney.

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

As soon as Denver has European density yes maybe...and name a city without WAY better other transit options than Denver that also has lots of bikes (this isn't rhetorical, if there are lots of examples I'd really like to know); When I'm going to work I consider several things; the extra exertion you go through on a bike compared to walking either generates a significant wind chill or generates more heat depending on what climate you're talking about. Of course you can't insist that all transit be enclosed.. but you can stand in a bus shelter in the rain or snow, or underground in a subway, or in the train room at USish errrr well some places. And as far as I know you can't safely bike with your umbrella. On a bus or subway line you get a lot of time to recover from that too so you either cool down or warm up on the way between or to your last stop. OF course, bikes combined with good transit is fine too, it's more than fine actually, it's great. (this approximates my decision making when figuring out how to get to work at least - with the additional variable of any rain in the forecast means no bike).

I don't think anyone is saying bikes suck in all situations forever and they should be banned. Or at least I'm not. But feeling all goofy good for bike lanes in a shitty transit city SHOULD be discouraged, especially on this site. It's NOT progress to put bike lanes in a city where only serious bikers will use them. Serious bikers (as your response about sidewalks in Boulder vrs the bike lane demonstrate) are savvy enough to use the existing roads, sidewalks and bike lanes where they exist in whatever combination they want to.

New commuter bikers either have to get within the in between space where the bike is a great way to make the trip manageable or they need to live in that distance. And they also have to be young/in shape enough to actually safely ride a bike. That's not everyone.

Bikes work great in great cities, and they aren't a HARM in any transit plan, and like everyone seems to agree they are relatively cheap. But it's still the same medical analogy, it doesn't cure or even significantly treat what sucks about American transit. At BEST it's palliative.

How are we going to have European density with our current zoning? I'm no expert but 3/4 of Lohi has SFH zoning...

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I'm not saying you can't physically have both. I'm saying you can't politically have both. And if I can't have transit, I'd rather save that road space for cars. So in that sense, no, I don't agree bike lanes are a good step. If I can't have transit, I'd prefer to maximize the automobile. Because I will never ride a bike for anything more than recreation.

This is such flawed logic. People generally don't drive to transit, but they will certainly walk or bike to transit. However, with your wide roads, minimal sidewalks and bikepaths, and parking for every bed, who in the hell would ever take that street car you supposedly want?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

This is such flawed logic. People generally don't drive to transit, but they will certainly walk or bike to transit. However, with your wide roads, minimal sidewalks and bikepaths, and parking for every bed, who in the hell would ever take that street car you supposedly want?

(A) All people do in Denver is drive to transit. And,

(B) that's not what I said at all. The logic isn't flawed, your reading was. I'd replace cars with transit. I don't think bikes add anything to the transit. Absent, transit, I want cars. The bicycle component is irrelevant to me. (And walking - that'll be accomodated in any case, so needn't really be mentioned, but obviously important. Nobody is getting rid of sidewalks to make way for any other mode.)

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I'm saying you can't politically have both.

And your strategy for winning over the politics is... to ignore the alliances that have worked in America's most successful urbanist cities, narrow your political tent, make enemies out of the largest contingent of self-identified urbanists in the city, cede your intellectual ground to the ant-transit lobby thus making your own pro-transit arguments less effective, and banish affordable/practical solutions that clearly work in some contexts even if they aren't panaceas everywhere.

It's not that I don't believe there's a political dilemma in Denver. I do. It's that I don't believe your strategy to fight it will be effective, nor really even desirable. The deal breaker for me, more than anything else, is parroting the anti-transit rhetoric of Randal O'Toole, Wendell Cox, and Jon Caldara. You lose me when you do that, completely. And if you can't win me over, who do you think you're going to get?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

And your strategy for winning over the politics is... to ignore the alliances that have worked in America's most successful urbanist cities, narrow your political tent, make enemies out of the largest contingent of self-identified urbanists in the city, cede your intellectual ground to the ant-transit lobby thus making your own pro-transit arguments less effective, and banish affordable/practical solutions that clearly work in some contexts even if they aren't panaceas everywhere.

Cyclists are the largest contingent of self-identified urbanists in the city? I find that hard to believe. The largest contingent of self-identified urbanists are the Wash Park/Highlands crowd who enjoy cycling to the local bars but damn well for sure have two cars at home that they use almost everyday to drive everywhere else.

But let's keep on pretending that the Portland model is something to emulate in a city that is far larger both population and geographic wise instead of looking at other models such as Seattle's highly successful local transit model using 'da bus.

[Cirrus]

Cyclists are the largest contingent according to bunt, who insists repeatedly that every urbanist gathering and every city planning effort is so overrun with cycling advocates that transit can't get a word in.

I take him at his word on that. Is he wrong?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Cyclists are the largest contingent according to bunt, who insists repeatedly that every urbanist gathering and every city planning effort is so overrun with cycling advocates that transit can't get a word in.

I take him at his word on that. Is he wrong?

Tea Partiers are the largest contingent in primaries, does that mean that they are the dominant view in politics? Perhaps a more logical explanation is that ideologically pure movements tend to attract individuals who are more passionate in their advocacy. I'm fine with cycling being included as a low-hanging fruit to improve multi-modal transportation, but focusing more on cycling than on transit is not a good model in my opinion.

We all know that Bunt is an old man stuck in a young(er) man's body and that he's merely waiting for the time when he can grumble out how today's kids just don't get it. He's going to be curmudgeonly no matter what.

[PLANSIT]

Bunt, are you on Twitter (Eh, who am I kidding, we know you're not)? But, if you were, you should definitely follow:

BIKE LOBBY

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

And your strategy for winning over the politics is... to ignore the alliances that have worked in America's most successful urbanist cities, narrow your political tent, make enemies out of the largest contingent of self-identified urbanists in the city, cede your intellectual ground to the ant-transit lobby thus making your own pro-transit arguments less effective, and banish affordable/practical solutions that clearly work in some contexts even if they aren't panaceas everywhere.

It's not that I don't believe there's a political dilemma in Denver. I do. It's that I don't believe your strategy to fight it will be effective, nor really even desirable. The deal breaker for me, more than anything else, is parroting the anti-transit rhetoric of Randal O'Toole, Wendell Cox, and Jon Caldara. You lose me when you do that, completely. And if you can't win me over, who do you think you're going to get?

I don't expect to win. I consider the transit battle lost. So in that sense, wong is correct, I'm just grumbling. In a way, also, I am now on the side of the evil car folks, because my priority is, first and foremost, my own mobility. Being selfish, that is an even higher priority than promoting urbanism (in the abstract), which (not in the abstract) I can't even afford to live in. If the core of urbanists in Denver won't embrace (i) transit and (ii) significant density without serious tooth-pulling, then I'll stick with what already works - and despite its myriad faults, driving in Denver today works really well; it's super easy.

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Bunt, are you on Twitter (Eh, who am I kidding, we know you're not)? But, if you were, you should definitely follow:

BIKE LOBBY

Haha. I have the twitter on my phone (and my shiny new tablet). Just don't know how to use it.

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

(A) All people do in Denver is drive to transit. And,

(B) that's not what I said at all. The logic isn't flawed, your reading was. I'd replace cars with transit. I don't think bikes add anything to the transit. Absent, transit, I want cars. The bicycle component is irrelevant to me. (And walking - that'll be accomodated in any case, so needn't really be mentioned, but obviously important. Nobody is getting rid of sidewalks to make way for any other mode.)

We're not taking your car away. You can relax. There will always be roads and cars in all cities. What's the point of putting all the roads on steroids? It will just induce more demand and create more traffic. Same for parking.

Because the bike component is irrelevant to you does not mean it is irrelevant to Denver. I commute via bike to Cherry Creek and it appears many other do to from my experience. I even go at off peak time. Likewise your B cycle stats really don't hold water since most serious cyclists own their own bikes.

People like walking along sidewalks that are protected, with trees and parking, etc. where traffic moves slower.

As for the comment about Highland and Wash Park people owing 2 cars and driving everywhere etc. I think that is a stereotype that is swinging in the direction of fewer car trips, people making more trips via bike, foot, car2go, Uber, Lyft, taxi, etc. Preferences are changing; that is not just my opinion. Spend a prolonged amount of time in Highland (or better yet live there) and you will see that this is true.

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

(A) All people do in Denver is drive to transit. And,

This is a gross and hyperbolic generalization. Maybe if you live in the burbs and drive to a park N ride this is true, but your generalizations are really off base as it relates to the close-in neighborhoods, the original street-car neighborhoods.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

This is a gross and hyperbolic generalization. Maybe if you live in the burbs and drive to a park N ride this is true, but your generalizations are really off base as it relates to the close-in neighborhoods, the original street-car neighborhoods.

You mean the neighborhoods where we keep on talking about the need for improved transit, but where there is currently little political will to do anything about it? Instead we push bike lanes as the ultimate solution, not the interim step that they should be.

Bunt's perfectly reasonable in stating that everyone in Denver, the metro area, drives to transit. We are spending $7 billion on a commuter transit system where everyone WILL drive to a PnR and take a train to their final destination. But, for all of us who live in the close-in neighborhoods, our transit needs are not being met, nor is RTD really focused on those needs. I'm completely supportive of the Denver City Council's push to study improving local transit in Denver and I hope that a proposal for a funding mechanism shows up on the ballot in the next couple of years.

[RyanD]

I just moved to Cory-Merrill... Guess what mode of transit I'm using oh say, 80% of the time to do simple things like get groceries...

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

You mean the neighborhoods where we keep on talking about the need for improved transit, but where there is currently little political will to do anything about it? Instead we push bike lanes as the ultimate solution, not the interim step that they should be.

Bunt's perfectly reasonable in stating that everyone in Denver, the metro area, drives to transit. We are spending $7 billion on a commuter transit system where everyone WILL drive to a PnR and take a train to their final destination. But, for all of us who live in the close-in neighborhoods, our transit needs are not being met, nor is RTD really focused on those needs. I'm completely supportive of the Denver City Council's push to study improving local transit in Denver and I hope that a proposal for a funding mechanism shows up on the ballot in the next couple of years.

yes, so everyone (or nearly everyone) in the metro area (places like Greenwood Village not Denver) drives to a PnR. Plenty of people who live in Denver walk or bike to a bus stop or mall shuttle.

Do you think that people advocating bike lanes view that as the ultimate solution? I highly doubt that. It is just another non-auto option. If we ever get a streetcar that runs to Cap Hill and/or Highland, we will have the bike infrastructure in place where people can make a quick jog on the bike to a station and lock up their bike. You could probably put 20 bikes where 1 car goes.

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Originally Posted by RyanD

I just moved to Cory-Merrill... Guess what mode of transit I'm using oh say, 80% of the time to do simple things like get groceries...

That would probably not be considered a close-in neighborhood. Plus 80% is not 100%. Good for you: a step (no pun intended) in the right direction.

[PLANSIT]

Bikes are definitely not viewed as the ultimate solution. They are viewed as one piece of the person-trip capacity puzzle.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

That would probably not be considered a close-in neighborhood. Plus 80% is not 100%. Good for you: a step (no pun intended) in the right direction.

I'm trying to not be a hamplanet this year, so when I fix my bike I'll hopefully bring that down to 50-60%. But here's the thing, come cold weather, I'm not biking to work, Target, KS, Safeway, etc. I'm going to be the crudder in the crowd and agree that bikes are not a year round form of 'transit'. I still look at them as fair weather commuter modes, as much as I love biking.

Now, I would still love to see a Colorado Blvd Street car, and especially a Cherry Creek since I'm about a mile south of CC. Then it's just a quick bus trip down University and a SC ride from Cherry Creek. That would be heavenly. However, it's also a quick bus ride to the University LRT as well. I just have to get used to the neighborhood.

I moved to Capitol Hill when I was 19, so now, 6 years later, having to use a car to get everywhere is really pissing me off and it annoys me. So I'm going to do a little experiment as I get settled in here (and once I fix my bike). I'm going to print a calendar and mark each day with what form of transit I use and where. I'm not hardcore on any form whether it be bikes, car, bus, train or helicopter. So it will be interesting to see what I use this summer!

[enjo13]

Interesting discussion on Reddit about this very topic:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Denver/comments/24s46f/can_we_start_the_conversation_about_intracity/

Someone linked to this article which I also thought was really interesting.

http://www.humantransit.org/2009/07/streetcars-an-inconvenient-truth.html

I could definitely get behind the more train-like busses the article references. I'd love to see some overhead electric busses in Denver actually.