DENVER | Transportation Thread

[bunt_q]

I haven't moved any goal posts. If you can't achieve a reasonable mode share year round, then you're not a viable alternative to the auto. And we need a viable alternative. My goal has always been reducing auto dependency. Cycling doesn't do that, because you still can't live without a car. I am quite consistent, the cycle lobby is not.

[bcp]

Whoever makes decisions regarding where bike lanes go just made a terrible one Navajo Street in lohi now have sharrows on it..what a terrible idea on such a busy bus route, and a narrow street to boot

[awholeparade]

Because sharrows do/change anything....

[DenverRider2]

Does anyone who worked on the brighton blvd plan have the authority to design/ fund/ implement transit? Perhaps RTD should have been involved or maybe Denver needs an independent transportation dept.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by DenverRider2

Does anyone who worked on the brighton blvd plan have the authority to design/ fund/ implement transit? Perhaps RTD should have been involved or maybe Denver needs an independent transportation dept.

Yes, the City and County of Denver, as a home rule municipality, has the authority to design, fund, and implement transit. As do about a thousand other public entities in Colorado (1,000 is not even an exaggeration).

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by DenverRider2

Does anyone who worked on the brighton blvd plan have the authority to design/ fund/ implement transit? Perhaps RTD should have been involved or maybe Denver needs an independent transportation dept.

RTD was/is involved.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

And how do you make the 1-2 mile trip in winter? (If not transit.). And "dress warmer" or "suck it up" is not an acceptable answer - people are allowed to not want to be physically uncomfortable.

Absolutely 100% correct. And it works the same way when it's MFing hot. You can actually dress warmer and people won't do it. What you can't do is bike naked, or less than naked which is what it would require to get to work anything other than soaked like you just came in from a Monsoon after even the shortest trips here.

All this biking stuff is preety though, and makes people that don't understand human behavior feel all fuzzy (and I'm not immune to this at all, I feel all proud n junk when I see bike lanes in Orlando as I drive 100% of the time here in the summer time, up slightly from 95% in the "winter"). But so does prescribing antibiotics for a cold. Your pt may feel like you're treating them but you're really just doing something to shut them the hell up. If that's what Denver is doing here than I'm all for it.. When we have actual money for actual transit we can always look at changing things then. Until there's actually a cure for the common cold sometimes it's best to get your dumb patients out of the way with some cheap meaningless antibiotic that every actual bacteria has resistance to already and have time to solve real problems.

[bobg]

How can anyone say that people cannot put up with the elements for cycling, but they can for transit.

In urban areas people walk to the stops, and unless it's a metro (very small percentage) they wait exposed to the elements. Even on frequent routes with a .25 mile walk the walking plus waiting time averages to be the same time they would spend riding a bike from the Source to Skyline park.

So are we advocating transit where every stop is unexposed, and you get there via covered moving walkway? Because I haven't heard that on here yet.

[PLANSIT]

CDOT buses will find a home at Union Station

Read more: CDOT buses will find a home at Union Station - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_25697256/cdot-buses-will-find-home-at-union-station#ixzz30r6f9I6a
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse
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Buses with passengers from Colorado Springs, Fort Collins and Glenwood Springs — and points in between — will be among those scheduled to eventually roll into the newly revamped Denver Union Station transit hub.

The commuter bus service over the state's most-traveled corridors will be provided by the Colorado Department of Transportation and should start early next year at a cost of $10 million.

CDOT says its bus system, which will be run by a private contractor, is a needed first step in providing a statewide transit system.

"It really pulls Colorado together unlike anything before," CDOT spokeswoman Amy Ford said...

[Cirrus]

Once again you parrot the same anti-transit argument you know is wrong.

How do you walk or wait for the train in winter or when it's MFing hot? No more sidewalks, I guess. Nor any surface parking lots. Only covered parking garages for every building and transit park and ride from now on, since that's the only way to get anywhere in full climate control. And we just won't mention the cold winters in Chicago or Montreal.

Cold winters are not a serious deterrent when other factors are in your favor. There are far too many successful biking cities in much colder climates than Denver to say otherwise and expect to be taken seriously. No, the only argument you have with any real legitimacy is population density. The fact that Denver's inner city neighborhoods are mostly detached houses, which would be suburbs in cities like Chicago or Montreal. That's the only thing that limits bikes' potential in Denver, compared to any other city hot or cold. And it is a serious limit, with serious implications to how Denver should plan, although not as serious as you think. Bikes are better than walking for those neighborhoods, especially for access to transit. And even then, bikes are still useful in the inner city.

You've taken one mistake in Denver's bike planning (putting a bike lane on a street where we need the space for transit) and multiplied that into an overarching hatred for all things bike. That's beyond ridiculous. Imagine how silly it would be to apply the same standard to transit. FasTracks wasn't perfect so we'll oppose all transit proposals from now on? Nonsense.

[seventwenty]

As the self-appointed impartial forum judge, I have ruled. Debate over. Cirrus wins.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

As the self-appointed impartial forum judge, I have ruled. Debate over. Cirrus wins.

Given your track record with picking winners (Derby, Red Wings) I decided to consult a third party:

[PLANSIT]

Folks, CDOT is going to start running commuter buses. That's a huge step for them.

Perspective people, perspective!

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Folks, CDOT is going to start running commuter buses. That's a huge step for them.

Perspective people, perspective!

Agreed. Even though some of the ridership projections can't help but elicit a chuckle, this is a big deal. Here's the article:

CDOT buses will find a home at Union Station

Buses with passengers from Colorado Springs, Fort Collins and Glenwood Springs — and points in between — will be among those scheduled to eventually roll into the newly revamped Denver Union Station transit hub.

The commuter bus service over the state's most-traveled corridors will be provided by the Colorado Department of Transportation and should start early next year at a cost of $10 million.

CDOT says its bus system, which will be run by a private contractor, is a needed first step in providing a statewide transit system.

http://www.denverpost.com/News/Local/ci_25697256/CDOT-buses-will-find-a-home

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by bobg

Given your track record with picking winners (Derby, Red Wings) I decided to consult a third party:

Oh I picked Chrome to win the Derby. But who would want a horse to run a crane? And there was no way the Wings would win this year. They need a defense. However, all of this is moot, since the 8 Ball is all knowing.

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Agreed. Even though some of the ridership projections can't help but elicit a chuckle, this is a big deal. Here's the article:



http://www.denverpost.com/News/Local/ci_25697256/CDOT-buses-will-find-a-home

He is quick to point out that FREX was a victim of the recession and big budget cuts and not poor ridership numbers. Riders on FREX reached a peak in 2008, with a daily average of almost 700 one-way trips, Blewitt said.

"This CDOT plan is absolutely welcome," Blewitt said.

Startup funding for the CDOT buses comes from 2009's FASTER legislation, which provides money for road and bridge repairs as well as new transit projects through vehicle registration fees.

After the initial $10 million outlay, the CDOT system will operate on $3 million annually, Ford said, and the agency hopes passenger fares will be able to underwrite at least some of the annual costs of the service.

The routes, which will only run on the weekdays, will be on Interstate 25 and I-70 and use current and future managed lanes as well as existing Park-n-Rides. There will be five round trips every weekday from Fort Collins to Denver at a cost of $10 each way.

Six round trips a day are planned for Colorado Springs to Denver for $12 per leg. The I-70 mountain corridor plan calls for one round trip per day — $28 from Glenwood Springs to Denver Union Station and $17 from Vail to DUS.

CDOT estimates the Colorado Springs route will draw 371 to 556 passengers a day, the Fort Collins trek about 171 to 257 daily and the mountain corridor route about 18 to 36 each day.

Encouraging indeed. At those ridership estimates, the Colorado Springs route would net between $2.25 million and $3.33 million a year. The Ft. Collins net between $.8 million and $1.285 million. I'm assuming the riders would use the bus both ways, so ridership figure X price of 2 one way tickets X 250 days (calendar year minus weekends and holidays..ish)

[seventwenty]

US 36 bill headed to Hickenlooper

Originally Posted by Denver Post

A bill that requires more public scrutiny of public-private road deals passed the House of Representatives on Monday and is heading to Gov. John Hickenlooper's desk for signing. Proponents of SB-197 say it will shine more light on the type of pact that attracted controversy in February when the Colorado Department of Transportation agreed to let Plenary Roads Denver maintain and collect tolls on U.S. 36 between Denver and Boulder for 50 years.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_25700697/u-s-36-bill-heads-governors-office

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Once again you parrot the same anti-transit argument you know is wrong.

How do you walk or wait for the train in winter or when it's MFing hot? No more sidewalks, I guess. Nor any surface parking lots. Only covered parking garages for every building and transit park and ride from now on, since that's the only way to get anywhere in full climate control. And we just won't mention the cold winters in Chicago or Montreal.

Cold winters are not a serious deterrent when other factors are in your favor. There are far too many successful biking cities in much colder climates than Denver to say otherwise and expect to be taken seriously. No, the only argument you have with any real legitimacy is population density. The fact that Denver's inner city neighborhoods are mostly detached houses, which would be suburbs in cities like Chicago or Montreal. That's the only thing that limits bikes' potential in Denver, compared to any other city hot or cold. And it is a serious limit, with serious implications to how Denver should plan, although not as serious as you think. Bikes are better than walking for those neighborhoods, especially for access to transit. And even then, bikes are still useful in the inner city.

You've taken one mistake in Denver's bike planning (putting a bike lane on a street where we need the space for transit) and multiplied that into an overarching hatred for all things bike. That's beyond ridiculous. Imagine how silly it would be to apply the same standard to transit. FasTracks wasn't perfect so we'll oppose all transit proposals from now on? Nonsense.

As soon as Denver has European density yes maybe...and name a city without WAY better other transit options than Denver that also has lots of bikes (this isn't rhetorical, if there are lots of examples I'd really like to know); When I'm going to work I consider several things; the extra exertion you go through on a bike compared to walking either generates a significant wind chill or generates more heat depending on what climate you're talking about. Of course you can't insist that all transit be enclosed.. but you can stand in a bus shelter in the rain or snow, or underground in a subway, or in the train room at USish errrr well some places. And as far as I know you can't safely bike with your umbrella. On a bus or subway line you get a lot of time to recover from that too so you either cool down or warm up on the way between or to your last stop. OF course, bikes combined with good transit is fine too, it's more than fine actually, it's great. (this approximates my decision making when figuring out how to get to work at least - with the additional variable of any rain in the forecast means no bike).

I don't think anyone is saying bikes suck in all situations forever and they should be banned. Or at least I'm not. But feeling all goofy good for bike lanes in a shitty transit city SHOULD be discouraged, especially on this site. It's NOT progress to put bike lanes in a city where only serious bikers will use them. Serious bikers (as your response about sidewalks in Boulder vrs the bike lane demonstrate) are savvy enough to use the existing roads, sidewalks and bike lanes where they exist in whatever combination they want to.

New commuter bikers either have to get within the in between space where the bike is a great way to make the trip manageable or they need to live in that distance. And they also have to be young/in shape enough to actually safely ride a bike. That's not everyone.

Bikes work great in great cities, and they aren't a HARM in any transit plan, and like everyone seems to agree they are relatively cheap. But it's still the same medical analogy, it doesn't cure or even significantly treat what sucks about American transit. At BEST it's palliative.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

As soon as Denver has European density yes maybe...and name a city without WAY better other transit options than Denver that also has lots of bikes (this isn't rhetorical, if there are lots of examples I'd really like to know); When I'm going to work I consider several things; the extra exertion you go through on a bike compared to walking either generates a significant wind chill or generates more heat depending on what climate you're talking about. Of course you can't insist that all transit be enclosed.. but you can stand in a bus shelter in the rain or snow, or underground in a subway, or in the train room at USish errrr well some places. And as far as I know you can't safely bike with your umbrella. On a bus or subway line you get a lot of time to recover from that too so you either cool down or warm up on the way between or to your last stop. OF course, bikes combined with good transit is fine too, it's more than fine actually, it's great. (this approximates my decision making when figuring out how to get to work at least - with the additional variable of any rain in the forecast means no bike).

I don't think anyone is saying bikes suck in all situations forever and they should be banned. Or at least I'm not. But feeling all goofy good for bike lanes in a shitty transit city SHOULD be discouraged, especially on this site. It's NOT progress to put bike lanes in a city where only serious bikers will use them. Serious bikers (as your response about sidewalks in Boulder vrs the bike lane demonstrate) are savvy enough to use the existing roads, sidewalks and bike lanes where they exist in whatever combination they want to.

New commuter bikers either have to get within the in between space where the bike is a great way to make the trip manageable or they need to live in that distance. And they also have to be young/in shape enough to actually safely ride a bike. That's not everyone.

Bikes work great in great cities, and they aren't a HARM in any transit plan, and like everyone seems to agree they are relatively cheap. But it's still the same medical analogy, it doesn't cure or even significantly treat what sucks about American transit. At BEST it's palliative.

Agreed. The solution in Denver right now is simple - I'll drive. Most other people are making the same decision. Say what you will about cultural changes, travel pattern statistics don't lie. We're a driving city, and nothing we're doing today (apart from that TIGER grant) puts us even one step closer to that changing.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

CDOT is going to start running commuter buses. That's a huge step for them.

I agree, this is great news. Even though the mode share for these buses is sure to be tiny for many years. You see what I did there.

Anyway, I don't see much value in continuing to argue where we all admit bike lanes are a good addition, but not enough, provided that's actually what we all admit to. I'll argue when someone gets crankypants.

One thing, though:

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

It's NOT progress to put bike lanes in a city where only serious bikers will use them. Serious bikers are savvy enough to use the existing roads, sidewalks and bike lanes where they exist in whatever combination they want to.

The reason only serious cyclists bike anywhere in Denver is precisely because there aren't enough good bike lanes. Study after study after study show over and over that the more casual the user, the more separation from cars they demand.

Portland has very very similar density to Denver, yet Portland's bike mode share (6-7%) is almost as high as Denver's transit mode share (7-8%), and probably higher if you added in people who bike to transit. That's a totally attainable number for Denver, and is enough to make a difference. It would be overly simplistic to say the difference between Portland and Denver is just bike infrastructure, but that's a huge part of it. And given that Portland is America's most progressive modern streetcar city, and does light rail much better than Denver, let no one say its bike policies are mutually exclusive with good transit.