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  #1001  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 12:52 AM
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A couple of articles (having seen it in the last 24-36 hours of postings here: One which Peter Hume is criticizing/ranting secrecy by the Rideau Transit Group regarding the project's evolving design.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/ottawa...+over+secrecy+builder/9763562/story.html

And noise complaints from the neighborhood where the street names are only one letter long

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ott...nnoy-eastway-gardens-residents-1.2617483
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  #1002  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 1:35 AM
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The city gave free reign to RTG to build the Confederation Line without political interference. That was an essential component of the plan to ensure it was built on time and on budget.

And now Hume (one of the very councillors who voted in favour of the contract!) is opposing it. Sure, Hume, let's delay the project by two years to consult with a bunch of silver-haired 'community association' types who are the god-granted voice of the neighbourhood despite never being elected by anyone. This guy needs to go.
     
     
  #1003  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 1:39 AM
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I'm getting sick and tired of Hume. Criticizing the Confederation Line construction, criticizing beautifully designed condo proposals (Wellington at Island Park) and criticizing the new Domtar proposal while approving bland condo buildings like the one near the LCBO and Superstore on Richmond.

I think it's time to vote him out. He's way past his best before date.
     
     
  #1004  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 2:41 AM
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
* If security isn't too much of a concern, it would run beneath Wellington Street, curving to beneath Bank Street, which it would mostly remain for about 7 km.
"Security" is a total red herring used by nattering nabobs to find ways to say no to stuff.

Quote:
* First station - Parliament, beneath Queen to Albert Streets, connecting directly to the Confederation Line station (beneath it, in a cross-formation with overhead transfers).

* Second station - Somerset, beneath Cooper to Somerset Streets, for mid-Centretown access

* Third station - Gladstone, beneath Frank Street to Gladstone Avenue, for lower Centretown access
If you're gonna have stations at both Somerset and Gladstone, you might as well have an intermediary one between Parliament (which could be further north) and Somerset (maybe with egress at that stupid little plaza outside L'esplanade Laurier).
     
     
  #1005  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 5:41 AM
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Future of the Transitway after the Confederation Line?

So, I am wondering a few things:

1) the line that is not dug underground, is it just placed on the Transitway?

2) will future LRT be placed on current Transitway?

3) will new lines after that be built as LRT, or Transitway and then LRT?
     
     
  #1006  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
So, I am wondering a few things:

1) the line that is not dug underground, is it just placed on the Transitway?

2) will future LRT be placed on current Transitway?

3) will new lines after that be built as LRT, or Transitway and then LRT?
1) Yes.

2) Yes, Tunney's to Baseline and Pinecrest to Bayshore.

3) Depends. The Lincoln Fields-Pinecrest transitway is now going to be built as LRT. New transitways are planned west of Kanata, on March Rd, and on Baseline Rd.
     
     
  #1007  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 1:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
1) Yes.

2) Yes, Tunney's to Baseline and Pinecrest to Bayshore.

3) Depends. The Lincoln Fields-Pinecrest transitway is now going to be built as LRT. New transitways are planned west of Kanata, on March Rd, and on Baseline Rd.
That is all great.

Other cities should take note of how to build a system that is upgradeable as necessary.
     
     
  #1008  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 1:52 PM
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Eeh, let's wait and see how things go when they start closing off parts of the Transitway before we toot our horn. I think that we're going to have about three or four very tough years for transit riders in Ottawa before the new LRT opens.

Is it just me, or is it a little foolish to build something, get people to depend on it, then close it down for several years?
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  #1009  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
That is all great.

Other cities should take note of how to build a system that is upgradeable as necessary.
Aylmer's right, not so fast. E.g., the Southeast Transitway, which the engineers at the time lied about the design (insisting it was done specifically for eventual conversion to rail), and our current design for Hurdman, which cuts off permanently any chance of easily converting it, even if there was a desire to fix the apparently-too-tight curves between Riverside and Pleasant Park (as is required around the train station in the Confederation Line project). As Dado repeatedly points out, if the RMOC/City had been honest when they told the public that they were designing the Transitway for eventual conversion to rail, it wouldn't need to be shut down entirely for 2-3 years to actually do the conversion.
     
     
  #1010  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 4:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McC View Post
Aylmer's right, not so fast. E.g., the Southeast Transitway, which the engineers at the time lied about the design (insisting it was done specifically for eventual conversion to rail), and our current design for Hurdman, which cuts off permanently any chance of easily converting it, even if there was a desire to fix the apparently-too-tight curves between Riverside and Pleasant Park (as is required around the train station in the Confederation Line project). As Dado repeatedly points out, if the RMOC/City had been honest when they told the public that they were designing the Transitway for eventual conversion to rail, it wouldn't need to be shut down entirely for 2-3 years to actually do the conversion.


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  #1011  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 4:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
Eeh, let's wait and see how things go when they start closing off parts of the Transitway before we toot our horn. I think that we're going to have about three or four very tough years for transit riders in Ottawa before the new LRT opens.

Is it just me, or is it a little foolish to build something, get people to depend on it, then close it down for several years?
This has been a major criticism that I have had for a lot of the plans for the future. Continuing to build Transitways with the intention of converting to LRT later adds costs in the long-run and creates tremendous disruption during conversion. This has also been my concern about expanding the O-Train when we don't have a long-term plan in place to improve the critical part of the line from Confederation to Bayview without tremendous disruption.
     
     
  #1012  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 4:08 PM
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Building bus Transitways and converting them 20-30 years down the line was a bad idea. As mentioned, people learn to depend on something and once we're ready for conversion, we face several years of commuter chaos.

That's why the City came up with Stage 2, extending the ORT to Orleans, Baseline and Bayshore now to prevent that chaos (for the Orleans and Lincoln Fields-Pinecrest segments not yet built) and save a few billion dollars down the road.
     
     
  #1013  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 4:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McC View Post
Aylmer's right, not so fast. E.g., the Southeast Transitway, which the engineers at the time lied about the design (insisting it was done specifically for eventual conversion to rail), and our current design for Hurdman, which cuts off permanently any chance of easily converting it, even if there was a desire to fix the apparently-too-tight curves between Riverside and Pleasant Park (as is required around the train station in the Confederation Line project). As Dado repeatedly points out, if the RMOC/City had been honest when they told the public that they were designing the Transitway for eventual conversion to rail, it wouldn't need to be shut down entirely for 2-3 years to actually do the conversion.
If we would have built a Transitway designed to easily convert to rail without major disruption, the cost would have escalated tremendously, making rapid transit in Ottawa unaffordable back in the 80s. We might as well have built LRT in the first place but that was also unaffordable at the time. The conversion aspect of the Transitways was oversold.
     
     
  #1014  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Building bus Transitways and converting them 20-30 years down the line was a bad idea. As mentioned, people learn to depend on something and once we're ready for conversion, we face several years of commuter chaos.

That's why the City came up with Stage 2, extending the ORT to Orleans, Baseline and Bayshore now to prevent that chaos (for the Orleans and Lincoln Fields-Pinecrest segments not yet built) and save a few billion dollars down the road.
Western extension is still going to be very disruptive. How will buses get from Baseline to Lincoln Fields once the Transitway closes? Woodroffe and Carling? Wait till that hits the fan.
     
     
  #1015  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 4:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McC View Post
Aylmer's right, not so fast. E.g., the Southeast Transitway, which the engineers at the time lied about the design (insisting it was done specifically for eventual conversion to rail), and our current design for Hurdman, which cuts off permanently any chance of easily converting it, even if there was a desire to fix the apparently-too-tight curves between Riverside and Pleasant Park (as is required around the train station in the Confederation Line project). As Dado repeatedly points out, if the RMOC/City had been honest when they told the public that they were designing the Transitway for eventual conversion to rail, it wouldn't need to be shut down entirely for 2-3 years to actually do the conversion.
I think it's a balancing act between building a system that is convertible to LRT and being fiscally responsible, since the people building it would have had no idea when the LRT would be built. I don't blame the original builders for not taking into account the need to have bus routes if the Transitway is eventually converted to LRT. At the time, it was unknown how successful the transitway would be, and spending money on something that is only required should the system become successful would probably be seen as a wasteful gamble.
     
     
  #1016  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 8:40 PM
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I’m not sure that the problem was a lack of thought put into the process of converting the Transitway to LRT; rather I think that it was believed that there would be no need to convert from one technology to the other.

The decision to use buses for the main infrastructure was a deliberate one. The capital cost for buses was cheaper per rider (i.e., three buses cost less than one LRV), the runway for buses was cheaper (i.e., asphalt roadway is cheaper than tracks and over-head wires), buses are more flexible in their routing than trains (i.e., buses can run on roads, in mixed traffic, while trains must run on fixed tracks), and buses can be run on a fragmented system while an LRT needs a complete route (i.e., a Transitway could be built over time but a rail-based system would need all of the money up front). At the time of the decision, it was also believed that a bus system could carry almost as many passengers along a corridor as an LRT system could; so a later switch to LRT would be fruitless.

Based on what was presented, I am certainly not surprised that the RMOC went with buses for its rapid transit system; it was a decision that made the most sense - as I say, based on the information presented to them. A bus-based system would allow buses to pick up passengers in the suburbs and then enter the Transitway for an unimpeded ‘express’ trip to downtown, without any transfers. The Transitway could be built over time, with buses running along existing roads around any gaps, until the entire route was complete. There would be a base of ‘Transitway’ buses which frequently ran the length of the Transitway, much like a ‘metro’ line, to move large numbers of passengers who would transfer on-to and off-of the line. It sounded like the ideal system – at a bargain price. There really would not be any good reason to change from such a utopian system to LRT.

But the decision between BRT and LRT was not a smooth one; there was a strong lobby on either side of the debate. In order to ease the tension, it was easy for those who chose BRT to say that the line would be built to the same geometric specifications as an LRT system would require; that way, if needed in the future, a conversion could be done. But there was really no thought, in my opinion, that the line would ever actually be converted; it was a convenient thing to say to defuse a debate. It was true that the geometry of the line would be the same as needed for LRT, but that was simply coincidence; a vehicle, be it bus or LRV, will need a certain radius of corner for a given speed. [Later Transitway construction did use corners that were too tight for LRT, but they were also a detriment to bus speed. Those decisions were more based in politics than physics.]

The BRT system worked pretty much as planned – where it was completed. Unfortunately, the ‘flexibility’ of buses allowed the central tunnel to be postponed in favour of less expensive alternatives and buses were run through the downtown in dedicated lanes on the streets. This interaction with the transportation grid and other traffic led to interference with the buses, slowing them down and reducing bus through-put.

Another problem that emerged because of the ability to run ‘Express’ buses from the core to specific suburbs was that the number of different routes using the downtown bus-lanes was large; meaning that the bus platforms were crowded with people who were waiting for their specific bus. Having too many people on the platforms creates ‘turbulence’ loading and unloading passengers, which increases the dwell time at the stops and, again, reduces bus through-put.

It also turns out that labour costs to run nearly 900 buses became an unsustainable burden. Although the capital costs of a BRT system were supposed to be lower than for a train, the operating costs of moving passengers in the smaller vehicles proved to be a major problem. The benefits of buses came at a price that became too high.
     
     
  #1017  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2014, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Western extension is still going to be very disruptive. How will buses get from Baseline to Lincoln Fields once the Transitway closes? Woodroffe and Carling? Wait till that hits the fan.
Lincoln Fields station will probably stay open as is (since they are planning to build a brand new station south of Carling), along with the Parkway route. Furthermore, they initially planned to have a BRT and ORT running parallel between LF and the Queensway (before Stage 2 came out with ORT extended west to Bayshore), so they might just keep buses running while building the ORT right next to it all the way down to Baseline.
     
     
  #1018  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2014, 1:15 AM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Lincoln Fields station will probably stay open as is (since they are planning to build a brand new station south of Carling), along with the Parkway route. Furthermore, they initially planned to have a BRT and ORT running parallel between LF and the Queensway (before Stage 2 came out with ORT extended west to Bayshore), so they might just keep buses running while building the ORT right next to it all the way down to Baseline.
The Strandherd-Armstrong Bridge and Southeast Transitway could also take some of the load, especially the express buses.
     
     
  #1019  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2014, 1:54 AM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Lincoln Fields station will probably stay open as is (since they are planning to build a brand new station south of Carling), along with the Parkway route. Furthermore, they initially planned to have a BRT and ORT running parallel between LF and the Queensway (before Stage 2 came out with ORT extended west to Bayshore), so they might just keep buses running while building the ORT right next to it all the way down to Baseline.
I doubt there will be buses and trains running parallel between LF and Pinecrest. They're building LRT there earlier to save the cost of building such a parallel path.

Much of Stage 2 is underground and on a different path from existing bus routes. I think there will be less re-routing issues compared to Stage 1.

Perhaps there will be some extra traffic on Woodroffe, and maybe Carling as well. However, the stretches along the ORP & 417 should be relatively unaffected.
     
     
  #1020  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2014, 1:35 AM
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In 1981, the current area of Ottawa had around 550,000 people. In 1983, they opened the Transitway.

Ottawa now has almost 900,000 people.

For the size of the city, building an LRT at the time would have been too expensive. Building the Transitway closed the gap.

Transitways should all be built to be able to be turned into future LRT lines. They should be easily converted by just adding the ballast, ties and rails.
     
     
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