The Metro Vancouver Retail Thread

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Vin

Could it be one of the reasons why shoppers are not spending $10,000 a month on local stores here is because of failed government policies to retain shoppers here? If import taxes have been lower, with prices more comparable to, say the States, or if Vancouver were a free port, dropping $10,000 wouldn't be so far fetched anymore.

Very self-defeating attitude on your part, I have to say. We are not blaming the city as much as you think we are. We're just suggesting what can be done and wishing what can be built or implemented. Comparing with better cities aspires us to achieve the ideals. It also opens up the imaginations of those who have never been exposed to what could have been. At the end of the day, the City and developers still make the final decisions.

To sum up, I don't think we are an "overachieving city". Much more can be done.

Would it be neat if we could be our own little free trade city state? Sure. But we are part of a massive country, a federation of regions which has benefits too.

Vin, what you are pushing for is ultimately forming our own nation state, which is an immensely tall order and something I'm not sure would even be beneficial in the end.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Genauso

I didn't write to criticize or that these were important failures.

If you do stop to think about it as a comprehensive subject, there are simply things the city could do better if attracting retail sales were the objective.

There are a lot of contributing reasons as to why Singapore or Hong Kong feel different, and that feeling going to or in between stores is an important part to a good experience that makes people happy to storms their money.

But there is one principle I think we can and should try to adopt, changes there are ultimately done as if by one mind where we tend to have many independent actions, departments, and rules (in the good name of consistency and fairness) such that we have details that fall through the cracks.

Details like a cracked and crooked sidewalk, no one thinks it was done right or wants it that way but having checked off all the rules it remains.

We have arterial streets that lose an entire lane of traffic when one car parks on street in an area where there is plenty of of street parking, and then in busy areas where people are supposed to use a parkade you generally don't know if the lot is full until you drive around it. In Singapore they make driving and parking easier by using streets for moving traffic and standard parking lots that advertise exactly how many open spaces and sometimes even give directions to open spots. Reduce the stress, reduce wasted time, it doesn't cost anything significant. They are focused because they have less and do less.

I do like what is done here, and I appreciate the interesting challenges of everyone involved from the city, to developer, to retailer. It's different running a huge project where everything is done at once compared to how Alberni St has completely changed one step at a time. They needed s complementary mix of brands, the right location, the right spaces, to fit the right price, etc. The future is promising with our own mega project at Oakridge.

Still, we can always do better. Especially when and where we can see better being done by someone already. If there's is something we wouldn't choose if we started from a blank slate, why should we accept it now? If we have any large objectives, someone should care to make sure pieces aren't overlooked just because it's not already someone's job.

Let me say right off the bat I've lived in Singapore, I am very familiar with what the city does well. And they do quite a lot quite well. (it helps that they are a global financial hub and the regional metropolis for roughly a hundred million plus people)

What I disagree with is the ultimate efficacy of these differences. I do not think that cracked sidewalks or cars parking in parking lanes has ANY effect on the city outside of the most minor of annoyances. Could we fix them? Sure. Should we fix them? Sure. Is anything in Vancouver going to change because we did? Not really, no.

What Vancouver needs to do is grow its economy (I feel like I'm having the same conversation in two different threads here). If we can build up our city, while tackling all the little things you've mentioned, we will be in an incredibly envious position, if we aren't already.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Vin

To sum up, I don't think we are an "overachieving city". Much more can be done.

Well no one has answered my challenge of finding another city of similar size in NA who does it better than Vancouver. I certainly think that makes us overachieving.

I don't know why one can't admit Vancouver is an overachiever, but still expect much more to be done. I know I do.

I like where this city is at, and even more importantly I like where it's heading.

Originally Posted by Vin

Also, don't be too sure that it would be slow for retailers to take up the lots if one smaller scale downtown mall were to be built here locally. I'm sure many retailers would scramble to open up there, and the only ones they would vacate would be those wooden shacks on Robson/Davie/Denman streets.

I am very sure. Through my profession I have the privilege of having an inside view of what makes retailers tick and where and what they want. Bottom line is right now lux retailers want to be on Alberni/Burrard in moderate sized street front units. No high end retailer in the city wants a second floor mall location. If there was this backlog of retailers you imagine, I wouldn't think Robson would be full of tourist shops hawking roller luggage and other knick knacks.

Bottom line is we will build what is necessary, and right now we are building what is necessary. If you want to see this grow we need to grow our economy, and the best way to do that is by pushing for business friendly policies at the provincial level, as I mentioned earlier.

[spm2013]

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[dreambrother808]

I admire your patience, Leftcoaster.

[Genauso]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

There is a lot of confusion in this thread over who it is who effects change.

Who exactly should be building the Plaza Singapuras and ION Orchards right now? And more specifically, why?

The market will build what is demanded, nothing more and nothing less. The city or any of our policies at the municipal have not influenced that.

As a bit of history, the Bronfman family had a number of trusts that for reasons of minimizing tax at the time made new investments in Canada. The fortune had two main branches which beginning in the 1960s did really well investing in malls which I guess were growing along with the baby boom, car ownership, and suburbs.

One side was Edper which had Brascan, later Trizec, now Brookfield. Run by Jack Cockwell, they built First Canadian Place in Toronto as an example.

The other bigger side had CEMP which spawned Fairview, later Cadillac Fairview and was run by Leo Kolber. Fairview had a number of projects that were 60% Fairview, 20% TD Bank, 20% Eatons. Examples would be the then $110 million Pacific Centre, $250 million Eatons Centre, and the TD Centre.

The other major family operation during that time of post-WWII until the 1990s was the Reichmann family of Olympia & York which was as an example was involved in NYC's World Trade Center and London's Canary Wharf.

So during that time it was about 3 families, partnering with banks, that built almost every major mall and office building in Canada. They all fell apart to different degrees in the 1980s when interest rates increased, and the Canadian dollar fell while property values were falling.

After what I think was the lull of the 1990s, I think it's clear post-2000 the groups with huge pools of money that are building giant commercial or office projects are pension funds, sovereign wealth funds, and the relatively rare or at least silent billionaire. They are not limited to Canada, and taxes don't make a difference because they effectively don't exist beyond the property tax.

Big names in Vancouver today:
Oxford (MNP tower), owned by OMERS, Ontario pension fund
Ivanhoe Cambridge (Oakridge mall), owned by Caisse, Quebec pension fund
BCIMC (Canada Post downtown), BC pension fund
Holborn group (Trump tower, Bay parkade), Malaysian Tiah family
Concord Pacific (Yaletown), Chinese Li family

Also while Canadian banks are busy building Toronto, we have the nice addition of Credit Suisse that is funding the Credit Suisse building.

The rest are mostly local developers who build what they can finance on shorter timelines, maybe a nod to Starwood which is a public company running hotels for mutual funds.

I'm not asking for anything more to be built, Vancouverites are well served. I'll be impressed if Oakridge gets built. I'm happy to have many neighbourhood nodes and I wouldn't want to live in Singapore which feels like a single idea, nor Las Vegas where it feels like everything goes.

The biggest impediment to better serving Vancouver would be facilitating the entrance or expansion of brands that are put off or delayed by currently expensive rents that are based on high land prices. Luxury brands are not held back because they have bigger profit margins and more importantly are growing fast.

This discussion went beyond serving Vancouver's retail demand, it was about doing bigger or better than what exists today and thus about bringing sales that today are happening elsewhere into Vancouver. I would say myself and Vin arbitrarily focused on growing demand by attracting sales into Vancouver, and you focused on matching the demand of a growing Vancouver and I agree with both. I'm sorry if you're annoyed by my focus on things like sidewalks, if details are avoided or pieces don't fit then I see that as waste which bothers me more than it should (eg: the bottom contour of MNP tower's glass.)

I appreciated this simple summary, it is a unique and credible voice to share your understanding with us

Bottom line is right now lux retailers want to be on Alberni/Burrard in moderate sized street front units. No high end retailer in the city wants a second floor mall location.

What's your opinion from the developer's perspective? I mean, is there anything that could be done better or that you see will follow after the current trend of projects.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Would it be neat if we could be our own little free trade city state? Sure. But we are part of a massive country, a federation of regions which has benefits too.

Vin, what you are pushing for is ultimately forming our own nation state, which is an immensely tall order and something I'm not sure would even be beneficial in the end.

Let's not be that dramatic, and I never said we should form our own nation. There are countries where special regions or free trade zones are set up. I'm not necessarily advocating that, but there are many ways to help retail succeed in a city. New ideas could be accepted, but you seem to be dampering everything. If there are developers reading this thread and think that building a new mall would be a good idea, then let it be

[Vin]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Well no one has answered my challenge of finding another city of similar size in NA who does it better than Vancouver. I certainly think that makes us overachieving.

In case you haven't realized, the age of the NA property bubble is over. After years of stagnation and doing nothing to add value to the cities, except low density suburb expansions of residential homes based on speculation, and excessive and irresponsible borrowing of mortgage funds to homeowners that led to massive foreclosures, no mid-sized cities are going to do any better than Vancouver. Where there were once cities in the developing world that aspired to be like us, many of them have already overtaken this place by leaps and bounds. And here you are still taking NA cities as a benchmark, which, I would say, is very low. Stop looking toward the southern neighbour if you want to be better.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Well no one has answered my challenge of finding another city of similar size in NA who does it better than Vancouver. I certainly think that makes us overachieving.

I don't know why one can't admit Vancouver is an overachiever, but still expect much more to be done. I know I do.

I like where this city is at, and even more importantly I like where it's heading.




I am very sure. Through my profession I have the privilege of having an inside view of what makes retailers tick and where and what they want. Bottom line is right now lux retailers want to be on Alberni/Burrard in moderate sized street front units. No high end retailer in the city wants a second floor mall location. If there was this backlog of retailers you imagine, I wouldn't think Robson would be full of tourist shops hawking roller luggage and other knick knacks.

Frankly speaking, the only reason why building owners would spend millions on facelift is because there is a backlog of luxury and semi-luxury retailers waiting to set up shop in prime areas. I can't imagine lux stores opening up in one of those wooden snacks on Robson street; those better be reserved for knick-knack and luggage stores like you mentioned. FYI, with the right venue, retailers would even set up double-deck stores partly as a means to showcase their wares and brand. The only reason why this is not happening in a wide scale here is simply because we don't have a venue like this. But let me state again that I don't propose all lux stores, but a range of retail types to occupy a new mall.

[squeezied]

Vin, you clearly don't have a job as an economist.

[Joat]

With the holt renfew expansion, and the entrance of nordstrom and saks, I really think the luxury market might be oversaturated in a few years. Im no expert but Id have to agree with leftcoaster and say vancouver seems to punch well over its weight.

[ozonemania]

Originally Posted by Joat

With the holt renfew expansion, and the entrance of nordstrom and saks, I really think the luxury market might be oversaturated in a few years. Im no expert but Id have to agree with leftcoaster and say vancouver seems to punch well over its weight.

I think it's quite likely that we haven't oversaturated the luxury market. There is alot of money in Vancouver and many luxury-seekers have traditionally known they need to go elsewhere to get what they want. They are just turning to the idea that they just may be able to get what they want right here. Luxury retailers have to enter the market right however. Our luxury shoppers are also extremely mobile and wouldn't hesitate to go elsewhere if they weren't getting the appropriate goods and shopping experience. They know what shopping is like in New York, Moscow, Paris, Hong Kong, etc. and that would be the standard, not the standard set by a local Holts for example.

I say our luxury shoppers... but it applies EQUALLY to our middle-class shoppers, who know what the standards are because we are an international city. We have regular people here that know what it's like to shop in Moscow, Shanghai or Dubai. They may like the shopping here, but it's still quaint.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by squeezied

Vin, you clearly don't have a job as an economist.

Squeezied, and economists are usually wrong on economic forecasts.

And no one appreciates your opinion if you don't have details to add.

[204]

Originally Posted by Vin

Where there were once cities in the developing world that aspired to be like us, many of them have already overtaken this place by leaps and bounds.

Which cities would these be?

Originally Posted by Vin

And here you are still taking NA cities as a benchmark, which, I would say, is very low. Stop looking toward the southern neighbour if you want to be better.

I'd say that cities like Portland, Minneapolis and San Diego are setting the benchmark pretty high.

[SpongeG]

just spent a few days in edmonton shopping mostly, the wem is getting a kate spade, they have a lot of stores with no presence in vancouver, g-star raw, scotch & soda, 7 for all mankind, dr martens, abercrombie & fitch and a few more but otherwise its not that different, but the malls were all crazy busy and south edmonton common omg that place is nuts and paying 5% instead of 12% and probably having more disposable income there sure seems to seeing more shopping/purchases being made - and omg simons amazing store

[Vin]

Originally Posted by 204

Which cities would these be?



I'd say that cities like Portland, Minneapolis and San Diego are setting the benchmark pretty high.

My goodness, you need to travel even more.

[connect2source]

According to Retail-Insider, the Harry Rosen location at Pacific Centre is about to get a big overhaul in anticipation of Nordstrom, Holt's expansion and the possibility of Saks taking part of Hudson's Bay. Seems they very recently did some renos, added Canali and re-did Zegna, guess competition is getting fierce.


http://www.retail-insider.com/retail-ins...-flagship-interview-with-ceo-larry-rosen

[SpongeG]

harry rosen always looks so old man to me but when you look around in the store they carry a lot of fashionable stuff and more attractive to younger customers but they don't seem to do much showing of that side of their offerings at least from the window displays and the way the stores are set up, they could do more to push some of their offerings to attract people who think of them as a suit/office attire kinda place

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

harry rosen always looks so old man to me but when you look around in the store they carry a lot of fashionable stuff and more attractive to younger customers but they don't seem to do much showing of that side of their offerings at least from the window displays and the way the stores are set up, they could do more to push some of their offerings to attract people who think of them as a suit/office attire kinda place

They would do better if they had mirrors inside the change rooms, so you don't have to exit the change room to see if the clothes fit (often looking ridiculous) and also having to deal with a salesperson.

[spm2013]

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