The Metro Vancouver Retail Thread

[officedweller]

That stretch of Robson starting from Howe has some good larger format (relatively speaking) retail -

Infinity - Chapters (if Chapters closes or relocates to downsize, that would be a prime site for a larger retail store)
Old Navy
Winners / Future Shop Building
L'Hermitage - Homesense and IGA Marketplace
L'Aria on Robson - H-Mart

Too bad the corner and upper levels at L'Atelier are occupied by the beauty school and not a large format retailer.

Unfortunately, the upper levels of the podium of the Telus Garden condo that were to be retail were rezoned for commercial office space,
from what I recall (but I suppose they could still be used for retail?)

The site mentioned by Vin would make a good retail centre to add to the critical mass of the area (i.e. taller retail podium).
Ditto for the SW corner of Robson & Seymour (where the framing store is located)

******

WRT the concept of multi-tenant complexes along a major shopping street -
That's what was done on Robson Street in the 1980s and 90s (on a smaller scale)
- and is now being "undone" by filling in the gallerieas and plazas for larger format stores.
i.e.
Robson Fashion Park was a galleria before being filling in by the now vacant (?) Below the Belt store.
Robson Galleria was an open air plaza that was filled in for the Forever 21 store.
The complex @ Robson & Bute previously had a corridor that was filled in for the Bluenotes store (now vacant).
The former Public Library had an atrium that was filled in for the Victoria's Secret store.

PS - I see the spandrel epidemic has reached Singapore.

[officedweller]

Completely forgot about the most obvious (or not) big site for multi-tenant large format retail - The Bay Parkade - with direct access to Granville Station.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Yeah orchard road, only one of the highest end shopping streets in the world. There are about 5 Louis Vuittons on that street. Don't really understand how people expect this kind of opulence in Vancouver between H-Mart and japadog...

Vancouver may punch well above its weight in high end retail, but it's not one of the worlds preeminent luxury hubs like Singapore.

Back in the 70s and 80s, I'm sure the planning authorities and people living in the city state did not have "I'm never gonna be good enough" attitude

One mall along Robson street does not equate Orchard Rd. I guess you rather have wooden shacks.

[LeftCoaster]

Well they didn't build it back then, they built it now.

No one is going to pre build a 200+ million dollar investment for 35 years down the road when it can be used. That's absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention 35 years down the road no big lux brand would want it and would take a new build, leaving it still empty.

Bottom line is Vancouver has a far larger than would expected lux industry which is growing quite quickly. So long as we continue to foster the industry some day it will have the strength to build the quality you have shown, but once that happens the same goofballs will be on here complaining that it isn't good enough.

There's a certain subset of society who just like to complain, I think a lot of people in Vancouver just don't understand how good they have it.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Completely forgot about the most obvious (or not) big site for multi-tenant large format retail - The Bay Parkade - with direct access to Granville Station.

Absolutely agree! A new retail tunnel can connect the station to the mall too! I hope city councillors with vision will push the future developer to incorporate a nice retail podium. That will really help rejuvenate the business activities on that part of Seymour street due to lost opportunities in the past. It will also help retailers in having rents reduced with a higher supply of quality stores.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Well they didn't build it back then, they built it now.

No one is going to pre build a 200+ million dollar investment for 35 years down the road when it can be used. That's absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention 35 years down the road no big lux brand would want it and would take a new build, leaving it still empty.

Bottom line is Vancouver has a far larger than would expected lux industry which is growing quite quickly. So long as we continue to foster the industry some day it will have the strength to build the quality you have shown, but once that happens the same goofballs will be on here complaining that it isn't good enough.

There's a certain subset of society who just like to complain, I think a lot of people in Vancouver just don't understand how good they have it.

Having an insatiable appetite for more doesn't equate complaining. There is nothing wrong to demand better facilities and services. If Vancouver aspires to be better than Toronto or even New York, the city can get to that mark. The benefits can be tremendous. It not only keeps local shoppers in town, but also attract more people to come this way for holidays. Only setback to this would be the attitude of planners and residents: thinking that resting on the laurels makes us "good enough".

By the way, what criteria are you using to determine that "Vancouver has a far larger than would expected lux industry"? Is that based on population, hearsay, or are you just stating that based on your own opinion? As far as I know, Vancouver 20 years ago had about the same number of lux stores as we have now, but the population has grown tremendously in the last 20 years. How do you justify that?

Also, having a new mall built also doesn't mean it would all be occupied by lux stores. Typically, a floor could be lux while the rest could be a mixture of everyday retail stores. So please don't be too quick to assume.

[LeftCoaster]

I'm not quick to assume, I just know how these malls work, and anything with the kind of design you posted would need exorbitant rents to justify, rents only lux brands are capable of paying, at least in North America.

I say Vancouver has a larger than expected lux market because it does. Quantitatively. Vancouver achieves the highest sales and sales per square foot of lux in the entire country, higher than Toronto, Montreal or more money than they know what to do with Clagary. Vancouver is one of the best retail markets on the continent, if you can find me a similar sized city in NA with the same assortment of lux brands and the same sales metrics that isn't named Las Vegas or Palm Springs I'll gladly buy you a beer next time I'm in town.

And I'm curious what you think the residents/planners have done to stifle retail in this city? About the only thing the city has a problem with is super-regional malls downtown, preferring to populate streetfront retail. Kinda makes sense given that International village is still more or less empty, and the industry's ability to fill a building like ION Orchard just doesn't exist yet.

Not to mention the beneficial aesthetics of proper streetfront retail. Personally I'd much rather have a Rodeo Drive than a Bal Harbor.

[Genauso]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

And I'm curious what you think the residents/planners have done to stifle retail in this city?

Compared to Singapore? I can come up with some ideas

Could lobby federal government to allow China UnionPay which has way better merchant fees than Visa/Mastercard Canada

Random obstructions on sidewalks and roads that result in unnecessary chokepoints

New roads and sidewalks are soon cut up and left with unprofessional uneven asphalt

Few and expensive cabs, banning Uber

More helipads would be fun

Rain is handled very poorly with large puddles on the ground and awnings that are both inconsistent and bad at accommodating store signage. Taxi stands are not sheltered

Should look at pedestrian overpasses and underpasses at wide, major roads (or an LA style trench highway), similar destinations should be very close in terms of travel time. Orchard Rd has very long blocks and you don't have to wait at a light to cross the road, unless it's a small sidestreet which is rare and the wait is short.

They rebate sales tax for visitors, and try to make it easy, but I don't think our PST does

Many longtime vacant lots and vacant storefronts that are not even taxed at the regular rate, resulting in higher land prices/higher rents/fewer location opportunities

In addition to publishing development plans, they might try to help consolidate space and attract large pools of capital to execute that vision. This last one I only add because much of downtown Vancouver today is defined by what Henry Reifel and the Bronfman trusts did, including Pacific Center. This probably isn't a problem today, but attention could move things along faster. If the International Village mall languishes, it is a waste for everyone and we should keep trying to make it work instead of ignoring it. More than a few developers near the DTES have been complaining about being deceived and how the current plan is effectively a development freeze that doesn't allow any improvement

If they wanted to think big, they could try and make the city/region a Free Trade Zone like Hong Kong. The closest cities to Vancouver are already so far by travel time (ferry trip, windy mountain roads, or an international border) that this might be something worth trying

Also, outside of Orchard Rd Singapore has cheaper storefronts. From old claustrophobic mazelike malls, to the standard rollup steel door fronting a sidewalk that is allowed to sell/service almost anything without apparent permit impediments. Even on Orchard Rd they have this split main floor style where you walk up or down half a flight of stairs which doubles the streetfront retail space. Cheap food if you're near a Hawkers market (like a bunch of mini granville islands, just selling food for cheap because the rent is free and amenities are spartan), you can open carry alcohol in public that can be sold anywhere. They may have the reputation of being very strict, but they don't bother to interfere in many areas if there are no problems.

and if you're bringing up luxury sales you can't bring up Hong Kong without Macau and Singapore without the Marina Bay casino which is something Vancouver city council has rejected a number of times over many years. We could easily do a floating LVHM next to a waterfront art gallery and science museum. Look how long it took for the seaplane terminal to be completed after the convention center, things in Singapore move fast.

[officedweller]

Application to the City for a small retail pharmacy at 535 Smithe @ Richards - in the Dolce podium.
Note the numerous misspellings on the plan.

http://former.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/developmentservices/devapps/pc535smithe/index.htm

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Genauso

Compared to Singapore? I can come up with some ideas

Could lobby federal government to allow China UnionPay which has way better merchant fees than Visa/Mastercard Canada

Random obstructions on sidewalks and roads that result in unnecessary chokepoints

New roads and sidewalks are soon cut up and left with unprofessional uneven asphalt

Few and expensive cabs, banning Uber

More helipads would be fun

Rain is handled very poorly with large puddles on the ground and awnings that are both inconsistent and bad at accommodating store signage. Taxi stands are not sheltered

Should look at pedestrian overpasses and underpasses at wide, major roads (or an LA style trench highway), similar destinations should be very close in terms of travel time. Orchard Rd has very long blocks and you don't have to wait at a light to cross the road, unless it's a small sidestreet which is rare and the wait is short.

They rebate sales tax for visitors, and try to make it easy, but I don't think our PST does

Many longtime vacant lots and vacant storefronts that are not even taxed at the regular rate, resulting in higher land prices/higher rents/fewer location opportunities

In addition to publishing development plans, they might try to help consolidate space and attract large pools of capital to execute that vision. This last one I only add because much of downtown Vancouver today is defined by what Henry Reifel and the Bronfman trusts did, including Pacific Center. This probably isn't a problem today, but attention could move things along faster. If the International Village mall languishes, it is a waste for everyone and we should keep trying to make it work instead of ignoring it. More than a few developers near the DTES have been complaining about being deceived and how the current plan is effectively a development freeze that doesn't allow any improvement

If they wanted to think big, they could try and make the city/region a Free Trade Zone like Hong Kong. The closest cities to Vancouver are already so far by travel time (ferry trip, windy mountain roads, or an international border) that this might be something worth trying

Also, outside of Orchard Rd Singapore has cheaper storefronts. From old claustrophobic mazelike malls, to the standard rollup steel door fronting a sidewalk that is allowed to sell/service almost anything without apparent permit impediments. Even on Orchard Rd they have this split main floor style where you walk up or down half a flight of stairs which doubles the streetfront retail space. Cheap food if you're near a Hawkers market (like a bunch of mini granville islands, just selling food for cheap because the rent is free and amenities are spartan), you can open carry alcohol in public that can be sold anywhere. They may have the reputation of being very strict, but they don't bother to interfere in many areas if there are no problems.

and if you're bringing up luxury sales you can't bring up Hong Kong without Macau and Singapore without the Marina Bay casino which is something Vancouver city council has rejected a number of times over many years. We could easily do a floating LVHM next to a waterfront art gallery and science museum. Look how long it took for the seaplane terminal to be completed after the convention center, things in Singapore move fast.

You can't put it any better. Although I'm not proposing the authorities here to do exactly the same as what had been done in Singapore, some innovative planning and implementation can improve the retail scene. Ours is just overly outdated and tired.

[LeftCoaster]

Couldn't put it any better?

We can attract retail by building some helipads and limiting puddles??

Lobby the government to adopt union pay?

Last I checked the people shopping in high end retail couldn't care less about visa transaction costs. And helipads are cool? Sure, but this isn't sim city, this is real life. How many people do you know who lament the lack of helicopter parking in the city?

Most of the issues you brought up are so far out of the realm of urban planning I don't even know how to discuss them. Vancouver isn't going to be a SEZ any time soon, not to mention it's already a part of NAFTA and several other free trade agreements, so it would be somewhat redundant anyhow.

The bottom line is there are tons of opportunities for retail expansion in the city, which the municipal government actively encourages, and will come when the market dictates. If you really want more retail expansion downtown, go spend $10,000 a month at local stores, because sales are the only thing holding back expansion.

We can blame the city all we want, but the bottom line is we are an overachieving city of 2.5 million who for some inexplicable reason constantly compares ourselves with the Alpha cities of the world. Don't get me wrong, I love the ambition, but lets be proud of what we've achieved so far and push for the right policies to ensure that we continue along the right path. (A little hint they aren't helipads and covered taxi stands, they are business friendly initiatives at the provincial level).

[theKB]

I don't want to quote that long post but most of it was quite on point.

The banning of UBER's model by the Provincial Government/City was a huge fail and an obvious favour to the taxi monopolies. That service is fantastic and easy to use and frankly I used it here and anywhere I travel that it is available. UBER is working around the world but somehow in Vancouver its a problem.

I do think that the regionalization of Car2go (you can use car2go in any city in North America with your Vancouver membership starting next month) and uber really are starting to shake up the world of on-demand transport. They should have done uber like they did in NYC where they had the option to call a NYC taxi as well from the app if the taxi owners were so scared of the service. Vancouver's taxi service/options are absolute crap.

The tax rebate I think is something that should be brought back. They eliminated the GST program years ago and now with most provinces adopting the HST it would be something that could easily be adopted across the country to encourage tourists to shop.

[Genauso]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Couldn't put it any better?

We can attract retail by building some helipads and limiting puddles??

I didn't write to criticize or that these were important failures.

If you do stop to think about it as a comprehensive subject, there are simply things the city could do better if attracting retail sales were the objective.

There are a lot of contributing reasons as to why Singapore or Hong Kong feel different, and that feeling going to or in between stores is an important part to a good experience that makes people happy to storms their money.

But there is one principle I think we can and should try to adopt, changes there are ultimately done as if by one mind where we tend to have many independent actions, departments, and rules (in the good name of consistency and fairness) such that we have details that fall through the cracks.

Details like a cracked and crooked sidewalk, no one thinks it was done right or wants it that way but having checked off all the rules it remains.

We have arterial streets that lose an entire lane of traffic when one car parks on street in an area where there is plenty of of street parking, and then in busy areas where people are supposed to use a parkade you generally don't know if the lot is full until you drive around it. In Singapore they make driving and parking easier by using streets for moving traffic and standard parking lots that advertise exactly how many open spaces and sometimes even give directions to open spots. Reduce the stress, reduce wasted time, it doesn't cost anything significant. They are focused because they have less and do less.

I do like what is done here, and I appreciate the interesting challenges of everyone involved from the city, to developer, to retailer. It's different running a huge project where everything is done at once compared to how Alberni St has completely changed one step at a time. They needed s complementary mix of brands, the right location, the right spaces, to fit the right price, etc. The future is promising with our own mega project at Oakridge.

Still, we can always do better. Especially when and where we can see better being done by someone already. If there's is something we wouldn't choose if we started from a blank slate, why should we accept it now? If we have any large objectives, someone should care to make sure pieces aren't overlooked just because it's not already someone's job.

[Genauso]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Couldn't put it any bLobby the government to adopt union pay?

Last I checked the people shopping in high end retail couldn't care less about visa transaction costs.

I mentioned UnionPay because it is a must if you want to attract the Chinese customers driving luxury sales in the competing top luxury sales locations. It probably would be more significant to sales than any development mentioned on here.

Lower merchant fees by forcing Visa to compete might be a follow on benefit to other consumers and retailers. Watch Australia to see.

[Genauso]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

If you really want more retail expansion downtown, go spend $10,000 a month at local stores, because sales are the only thing holding back expansion.

We can blame the city all we want,

This was my point, I'm not blaming the city. I never thought about boosting luxury sales, but given that objective we would need to do things that compete with other cities globally.

My list wasn't what they should have accomplished, it was what they could try. Shifting sales from one local city to another won't do much, so that cannot be the standard or the target.

One of the keys to sales is to make every single step as easy as possible for the buyer. Think of the Apple store. It doesn't matter what people spend or what they get, how they feel at the purchase dictates how they feel about their purchase. A single negative moment can stick and ruin a lot of hard work.

If you're competing on separate comparable items, then it comes down to price or convenience. If you want to increase sales at a time there's the best price online, and convenient top quality locations at airports: you need to build a bigger better package to sell. The city's main part here is getting people to and from the stores, and to make it easy.

I cannot stop circling back to Uber given the city's other objectives, and it is an important thing for many Californians. It might not seem to fall under the retail development department, but why make things difficult if there is no benefit other than holding on to the past. I'm happy about car2go, Modo, and Zipcar but the city should be conscious that the easiest thing in the world is to say "no" and you can always come up with problems that don't exist, but might following some change.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Couldn't put it any better?

We can attract retail by building some helipads and limiting puddles??

Lobby the government to adopt union pay?

Last I checked the people shopping in high end retail couldn't care less about visa transaction costs. And helipads are cool? Sure, but this isn't sim city, this is real life. How many people do you know who lament the lack of helicopter parking in the city?

Most of the issues you brought up are so far out of the realm of urban planning I don't even know how to discuss them. Vancouver isn't going to be a SEZ any time soon, not to mention it's already a part of NAFTA and several other free trade agreements, so it would be somewhat redundant anyhow.

The bottom line is there are tons of opportunities for retail expansion in the city, which the municipal government actively encourages, and will come when the market dictates. If you really want more retail expansion downtown, go spend $10,000 a month at local stores, because sales are the only thing holding back expansion.

We can blame the city all we want, but the bottom line is we are an overachieving city of 2.5 million who for some inexplicable reason constantly compares ourselves with the Alpha cities of the world. Don't get me wrong, I love the ambition, but lets be proud of what we've achieved so far and push for the right policies to ensure that we continue along the right path. (A little hint they aren't helipads and covered taxi stands, they are business friendly initiatives at the provincial level).

Could it be one of the reasons why shoppers are not spending $10,000 a month on local stores here is because of failed government policies to retain shoppers here? If import taxes have been lower, with prices more comparable to, say the States, or if Vancouver were a free port, dropping $10,000 wouldn't be so far fetched anymore.

Very self-defeating attitude on your part, I have to say. We are not blaming the city as much as you think we are. We're just suggesting what can be done and wishing what can be built or implemented. Comparing with better cities aspires us to achieve the ideals. It also opens up the imaginations of those who have never been exposed to what could have been. At the end of the day, the City and developers still make the final decisions.

To sum up, I don't think we are an "overachieving city". Much more can be done.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Well they didn't build it back then, they built it now.

No one is going to pre build a 200+ million dollar investment for 35 years down the road when it can be used. That's absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention 35 years down the road no big lux brand would want it and would take a new build, leaving it still empty.

Oh by the way, they did start building in the 70s, at around the same time when Vancouver started the first mall downtown at Pacific Centre. Look how far they have come.

The photos I posted earlier showed a refurbished 70s mall (Plaza Singapura), a refurbished mall built in the 80s (Wisma Atria), and the latest one built very recently.

Also, don't be too sure that it would be slow for retailers to take up the lots if one smaller scale downtown mall were to be built here locally. I'm sure many retailers would scramble to open up there, and the only ones they would vacate would be those wooden shacks on Robson/Davie/Denman streets.

[officedweller]

Just a note that when Pacific Centre was built, it was a very controversial project. The site (of the 2nd Hotel Vancouver) had sat vacant since 1948 (or so) and the project was in part a City-led revitalization project (led by developer Mayor Tom Campbell) with Fairview Corporation and Eaton's. Many of the parcels on the middle block (Four Seasons, etc.) were expropriated for the project and faced many public protests.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Just a note that when Pacific Centre was built, it was a very controversial project. The site (of the 2nd Hotel Vancouver) had sat vacant since 1948 (or so) and the project was in part a City-led revitalization project (led by developer Mayor Tom Campbell) with Fairview Corporation and Eaton's. Many of the parcels on the middle block (Four Seasons, etc.) were expropriated for the project and faced many public protests.

Good info thanks!

Further proof that the city can lead and push something good if they have good councillors. If the council back then was led by Vision of today, there would be a row of wooden shacks fronting Granville and Howe streets from Robson to Pender today. I bet the protestors of the yesteryears grew old and moved to retirement or rental homes in the West End, where they are still protesting any large developments.

[LeftCoaster]

There is a lot of confusion in this thread over who it is who effects change.

Who exactly should be building the Plaza Singapuras and ION Orchards right now? And more specifically, why?

The market will build what is demanded, nothing more and nothing less. The city or any of our policies at the municipal have not influenced that.