Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[ToysNoiz]

Man, Future Mayor, you put things so well.

[Orlando]

Comrade, I appreciate your comments. It's interesting to hear your background.

Old & New, please don't start something. The last time when this forum got all rialed up, several forum members posted comments, saying that they "hate" Mormons. And, yet, not once, has any LDS forum member on here ever said that they "hate" anyone person or group.

I can understand why some people feel resentment towards LDS members because they feel excluded. It's helpful to know that it is not intentional, at least most of the time. We are constantly encouraged to be giving and loving to everyone. But, when we also try to hold on to some moral standard, we are also perceived as judgemental. I have at least 5 friends that are gay, and I have friends that could care less about the church. But, I try to maintain friendship with them and positive communication.

Anyways, let's get some photo updates on here so we can stop talking about non-development Mormon vs. non-Mormon stuff.

[SLC Projects]

I think the people living in Salt Lake City are only like........50% LDS? West Valley City is about 60% I think. How many Mormons live in sugarhouse? But then you get down to the south end of the valley where all the temples are in cities like South Jordan and Riverton it's about 99.9% LDS it seems. Point is...... Utah/Salt Lake isn't as "Mormon" as it used to be and it seems that the LDS members are slowing all moving southwards. My whole family are a bit of a steretype when it comes to not living more North then 9000th south thinking everything north of 9000th south is the Ghetto and filled with Mexicans. My wife and I were the first in my family to move out of the South/West Jordan areas and crazy us, we're living in West Valley. I like the area we live in. We have a mix of race, only about 40% people in the area ( ward ) are LDS and so far from what I've seen, everybody gets along just fine and respect one another. I grow up LDS, but now I'm seeing what life is like outside the LDS bubble so to speak, and I've learned a lot about other people. Not a bad thing.
Point is, Utah is changing, for the better and I don't mind living in a world of mix faiths, races and even gays ( I know I've had a hard time with since growing up was tought that it was wrong and then having to teach that on my mission ) I'm coming around slowly.
I think in 20 years Utah will be a much different place. Sure, there still be Mormons, but there be plenty of non Mormons also.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Boiseguy

i get what you're saying believe me.. but put yourself in their shoes being a minority in what many times seems like a sea of madness and weirdness. I know of a colleague recently relocated to SLC who was denied an apartment in Bountiful not because he had bad credit, or smoked, or whatever.. but the landlord asked him if his wife and kids were LDS..when he responded no…the landlord simply said "I'm sorry but I'm looking for a tenant/tenants that share my beliefs so it isn't going to work out" … now however illegal that is or if it is even illegal at all in utah.. these things are happening. This happened 3 months ago. US vs THEM mentality resides in the minds of those who exist in the status quo when their points of view and values are challenged. I'm not saying that an equal and opposite bitter reaction is in any way justified, but the dynamic has it's own context and could be avoided altogether by being more inclusive and embracing diversity. That is all. Many born and bred LDS Utahans have a hard time adjusting to life outside utah out of their comfort zone of becoming a minority themselves...and are very vocal about how weird or different things are..believe me I've seen it.(in utah this.. in utah that..well ur not in utah anymore sweetheart we go out to breakfast and shopping on sunday) So too would someone moving TO utah. I just don't think we should ever stop challenging the status quo..everytime I visit SLC and see the diversity and more and more diversity each time.. I smile a little inside. Just saying
And by diversity I don't mean different colors of skin or nationalities.. I mean actual different cultures and points of view uninfluenced by LDS belief systems.

That exact same situation has happened to me here in Los because I wasn't Gay. Didn't matter that I was gay friendly, he wanted someone who was living that lifestyle. I could go on and on with similar situations for myself and friends. As you pointed out Boiseguy, people will be people, and it happens everywhere. There's hardly a day that doesn't go by that I don't hear complaints or bitterness about L.A. this or L.A. that. I'm sure the same is true in every area. Fact is unfortunately, certain people will always accentuate the negative, or openly discriminate, and certain people will roll with the punches and make lemonade. LOL, even here on this forum, there are people who in all the years I've been a member have scarcely once had a positive thing to say.

As a side job, I manage a number of tenants from every ethnic background. I learned long ago that the basics of good character runs freely through all peoples, and there are always some in the mix who need a good dose of attitude adjustment.

[utenation]

I think comrade covers my stance pretty well. Although I have lived in many parts of the country. Delts nailed it, everwhere has their issues, not just Utah. Some worse that others. The thing I dislike about these conversations is when people say "if you don't like it, just leave". That is a very shallow solution isn't it? Doesn't Lds leadership want their members to be tolerant? As comrade said, many people like the state but have major issues with the government. Accept that things are changing and the bubble here will burst.

Slc and Utah are changing demographically right before our eyes and Lds people should expect more and more "speaking out". I will say this, all the people that are speaking out should be voting, otherwise they are just complaining without action. It's sick and wrong that 90% of the state leadership represents 50% of the population but creates 90% of the laws here. I'm glad people speak out on the trib and other media outlets. That's what democracy is about.

[asies1981]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Comrade, I appreciate your comments. It's interesting to hear your background.

Old & New, please don't start something. The last time when this forum got all rialed up, several forum members posted comments, saying that they "hate" Mormons. And, yet, not once, has any LDS forum member on here ever said that they "hate" anyone person or group.

I can understand why some people feel resentment towards LDS members because they feel excluded. It's helpful to know that it is not intentional, at least most of the time. We are constantly encouraged to be giving and loving to everyone. But, when we also try to hold on to some moral standard, we are also perceived as judgemental. I have at least 5 friends that are gay, and I have friends that could care less about the church. But, I try to maintain friendship with them and positive communication.

Anyways, let's get some photo updates on here so we can stop talking about non-development Mormon vs. non-Mormon stuff.

Unfortunately it is actually often intentional. I grew up LDS but many of my friends who were not LDS were treated differently. I know dozens of people who grew up in Utah and we basically blacklisted by other kids parents because they were not LDS. I have a friend whose family moved to Sandy from the Northeast and were invited by the neighborhood bishop to church, when the family stated they were not interested in being Mormon the bishop told them they wouldn't be accepted into the neighborhood. There are many loving, accepting LDS members but anytime you have homogenous culture, outsiders are not going to always be welcomed. Civil conversations about being a non-mormon in Utah like this one are important and are very much development related. Utah is growing and as the SLC economy grows and the positive economic news coverage SLC gets nationally continues, more people will be moving to Utah from other states and they probably won't be Mormon. When the largest developer downtown is the LDS church and the state legislature is predominantly LDS conversations like this are very much development related.

[scottharding]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

I think the people living in Salt Lake City are only like........50% LDS? West Valley City is about 60% I think. How many Mormons live in sugarhouse? But then you get down to the south end of the valley where all the temples are in cities like South Jordan and Riverton it's about 99.9% LDS it seems. Point is...... Utah/Salt Lake isn't as "Mormon" as it used to be and it seems that the LDS members are slowing all moving southwards. My whole family are a bit of a steretype when it comes to not living more North then 9000th south thinking everything north of 9000th south is the Ghetto and filled with Mexicans. My wife and I were the first in my family to move out of the South/West Jordan areas and crazy us, we're living in West Valley. I like the area we live in. We have a mix of race, only about 40% people in the area ( ward ) are LDS and so far from what I've seen, everybody gets along just fine and respect one another. I grow up LDS, but now I'm seeing what life is like outside the LDS bubble so to speak, and I've learned a lot about other people. Not a bad thing.
Point is, Utah is changing, for the better and I don't mind living in a world of mix faiths, races and even gays ( I know I've had a hard time with since growing up was tought that it was wrong and then having to teach that on my mission ) I'm coming around slowly.
I think in 20 years Utah will be a much different place. Sure, there still be Mormons, but there be plenty of non Mormons also.

Bravo, Projects! Seriously. It's cool that you've chosen to swim upstream a little bit. Anytime anyone is willing to be open to the possibilities of something different, even just as an observer or listerner, it should be commended, and it's a good reminder to me not to get boxed into my own thinking and opinions.
This conversation everyone has been in on has been very civil and pleasant to follow. I feel that people are really listening to each other, and that is very encouraging.

[scottharding]

Originally Posted by ToysNoiz

When people leave the state, I think many will realize, "Wow, there are so many more clubs and places the get a drink and have an — here, but the government is basically the same."

Haha! Get a drink and have an —?.... What do you think happens in bars?

[asies1981]

Originally Posted by scottharding

Haha! Get a drink and have an —?.... What do you think happens in bars?

Man I have been going to the wrong bars, lol.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by asies1981

Unfortunately it is actually often intentional. I grew up LDS but many of my friends who were not LDS were treated differently. I know dozens of people who grew up in Utah and we basically blacklisted by other kids parents because they were not LDS. I have a friend whose family moved to Sandy from the Northeast and were invited by the neighborhood bishop to church, when the family stated they were not interested in being Mormon the bishop told them they wouldn't be accepted into the neighborhood. There are many loving, accepting LDS members but anytime you have homogenous culture, outsiders are not going to always be welcomed. Civil conversations about being a non-mormon in Utah like this one are important and are very much development related. Utah is growing and as the SLC economy grows and the positive economic news coverage SLC gets nationally continues, more people will be moving to Utah from other states and they probably won't be Mormon. When the largest developer downtown is the LDS church and the state legislature is predominantly LDS conversations like this are very much development related.

That was my childhood. I had friends who openly told me they weren't allowed to come over to my house after school because their parents couldn't trust someone who wasn't in their ward. Granted, I understand wanting to know the parents of the place your kid might be going to, which is perfectly reasonable, but there was never any effort from their side to ever do that.

Growing up, though, my best friend was Mormon. His mom was the only one who seemed to have no problem letting him spend the night at my house when I was a kid. But she also knew my mom. The other moms didn't even take an effort to get to know her because she didn't run in their inner circle. The thing is, in Utah, that inner circle is almost entirely tied to what ward house you belong to.

[SL,UT]

Wow this forum has gone off the deep end quick. I thought this was for development related issues only. Mormons bashing Non-mormons, Non-mormons bashing Mormons... I would expect this at the Sutherland Institute but not on a Skyscraper page.

[utenation]

Originally Posted by Comrade

That was my childhood. I had friends who openly told me they weren't allowed to come over to my house after school

Probably a good call on your friend's mom's part.. Considering the vile, low class delinquent you are now..

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by utenation

Probably a good call on your friend's mom's part.. Considering the vile, low class delinquent you are now..

Right?!?

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by SL,UT

Wow this forum has gone off the deep end quick. I thought this was for development related issues only. Mormons bashing Non-mormons, Non-mormons bashing Mormons... I would expect this at the Sutherland Institute but not on a Skyscraper page.

Ehhhhh

This is pretty tame compared to the past.

[AllOutOfBubbleGum]

Did I miss something?

Well lets hope the mood can be reset with this pic I took at the neurological hospital this morning.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by AllOutOfBubbleGum

Did I miss something?

Well lets hope the mood can be reset with this pic I took at the neurological hospital this morning.

111, 145 and CCH are going to really help that angle too.

[StevenF]

Originally Posted by AllOutOfBubbleGum

Did I miss something?

Well lets hope the mood can be reset with this pic I took at the neurological hospital this morning.

Lets play some ispy. I spy utah's tallest structure.

[AllOutOfBubbleGum]

Originally Posted by wrendog

111, 145 and CCH are going to really help that angle too.

I think the CCH will look stunning from that angle if it turns out as tall as we are hoping.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by StevenF

Lets play some ispy. I spy utah's tallest structure.

The smokestack?

[brankrom]

Good discussion. I think overall (and some won't see it this way) the church is the number one reason for slow development over the decades. Denver and Colorado generally is similar in age and climate and even location. Both cities are in the middle of nowhere in relation to the region but Colorado and Denver specifically has far outpaced SLC and Utah in growth. Colorado is far more diverse and balanced politically than Utah. I've never lived in Denver I've just visited a few times but there's no question Denver dwarfs SLC in the region and nationally. Again all other things are equal IMO Climate, geography, location, trade routes and connections yet Denver grew for 100+ years to a large city with a lot of the same characteristics of east coast cities financially and socially. While Utah and SLC still suffers from stigma associated with Mormonism. I love living in SLC (except for the inversion) but to ignore the mormon issues and mormon control and to say it doesn't matter is completely dismissive. Outsiders are disenfranchised and marginalized and under represented the John Birch Society LDS branded version of ultra conservationism entrenched by the likes of Ezra Taft Benson for decades. Further 10% of income goes to a black hole that could be spent elsewhere. Utah wages are already low and skim 10% off the top that affects businesses bottom lines. Add in sub par funding for schools and church lobbyists that fought changes to tax structure to more appropriately distribute the funding burden for schools to larger families was a non starter a few years ago. Nutty conservatism and nutty beliefs have a negative affect on people's desire to move here. It is weird here and saying "other places are weird too" completely misses the point. No other place is like Utah, even places in the bible belt aren't like Utah when it come to monolithic control by a single organization/corporation and I lived deep in the bible belt for a decade. Evangelical christianity in the south does not have the monolithic hierarchy that Utah does.

People like to draw the parallels between Massachusetts and Utah, it's not even close. Utah has, from the very beginning been a theocracy, MA not so much. I would bet that lawmakers in Massachusetts never call Rome but I can bet that lawmakers call or get calls from LDS Inc. all the time. Mormons have run their little fiefdom from the beginning and to suggest that the LDS church doesn't run things and doesn't permeate every aspect of the Utah life is completely PR and apologetics. There's a certain smugness and arrogance that is very apparent to outsiders which comes from a century of isolation, unquestioned authority and well documented institutional xenophobia.